[00:00:00] Speaker A: The Yucatan Peninsula is a place of vibrant biodiversity, ancient cultures, and crystal clear waters that host some of the ocean's most iconic species. But beneath the surface, sea turtles face an uphill battle for survival against a tide of habitat destruction, climate change and human interference.
What if we could turn the tide and give these ancient mariners a fighting chance?
Welcome back to rewadology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
In today's episode, we're diving deep into the world of sea turtle conservation with Melania Lopez Castro, Sea turtle Conservation Program Coordinator at Puer Natura Peninsula de Yucatan. In this conversation, we explore Melania's journey from academia to nonprofit work, her innovative research, learning where sea turtles go after they leave their beach of birth, and the complex challenges facing sea turtles in the Yucatan, from feral dogs raiding nests to the impacts of coastal development.
We also explore Pro Natura's collaborative work with fishermen, hotel owners and policymakers to build a brighter future for sea turtles in the region. If you've ever wondered how small coastal communities can drive big conservation wins, then this episode is for you.
Before we jump in, I want to take a moment to thank today's sponsor, Sea Turtles. Sea Turtles mission is to connect people with sea turtles in meaningful, personal and memorable ways and help the sea turtle community connect, grow and thrive by supporting community based conservation efforts. I've personally admired sea turtles work for years and I'm so excited that we've teamed up to bring you today's episode. If you're inspired by this conversation and want to take action, check out seaturtles.org rewild to learn five ways you can help sea turtles from joining a conservation trip to saving a baby turtle and even fighting the illegal trade. Plus, Rewildology listeners can get $50 off a conservation trip by using the promo code REWILD.
All right, let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Melania Lopez Castro from Pronotura Peninsula de Yucatan.
Well, hi Melania. I am so happy to be sitting down with you today and talking about some very special species, critically endangered and endangered. And we're going to learn a lot from you and just how you are working to conserve them. But first, we have several parallels in our story. I absolutely loved when we sat down last time, I was like, oh my gosh. I have a very similar story. So tell us. Tell me again. Tell everybody listening. What is your journey and why did you decide to dedicate your career to Sea turtles.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Brooke. And first of all, thank you for the invitation. That was great. And, yeah, so back when I was in high school, trying to transition to college, I wanted to be a vet. I always knew that I wanted to do something with nature or especially with animals, because I'm a dog lover.
But we having this conversation with my dad and saying, well, I want to study veterinary, and I may have to go to Mexico City and do these things. And he said, well, no, I really don't see you as ending up as a veteran just bathing dogs and cats. That's not what you should be doing. Let's explore something else. We started doing that, and marine biology was a new thing back then. We're talking about 30 years ago, which it's a long time.
And marine biology sounded interesting, like something that you usually don't see. You just go to the ocean, swim a little bit, but you don't realize what wonderful world is underneath. And I just travel. I moved down to Baja California to study my own biology. And. And then on my fourth semester, I was taking this class about marine amniots, which is basically the big vertebrates. And there was this class that we were talking about sea turtles. And it started wonderful, saying, these species have lived the earth for millions of years. They have this awesome body plan that hasn't changed in a long time. And they were so abundant, and just in the last decade, they are on the brink of extinction.
So that just click, you know, why? It's not possible that something that is so successful through the evolution, it's now going extinct, and just because we are causing it. So that's when I decided to just, you know, start focusing my career on how to bring them back from extinction, you know, work on conservation and make them, you know, abundant again in all of the oceans.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And after that, during your PhD, you worked on a very critical question, and that was, where do sea turtles go after they hatch? So I know that. I was like, oh, my gosh, Melania, teach me all about this. And I'm sure people listening also have the exact same question. So where do sea turtles go after they hatch? What did you learn?
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's an interesting thing. So what we learn is that when turtles are born, they go to open ocean, but they use different foraging areas. So it's not like they all travel to the same spot. They divide themselves into different spots. So we were. We were analyzing samples from recently recruited juveniles to coastal foraging grounds. That's another thing. So when turtles are born, they go to Open ocean, and they spend there between seven and 12 years, probably a little bit more. Once they reach certain size, they move to coastal foraging grounds, where they end up growing or reaching sexual maturity.
We took samples from those recently recruited to figure out where they were spending time in the open ocean using trace elements and stable isotopes, which is a very cool technique that it's being used widely in biology when doing that. What we saw is that we had turtles coming from different regions in the open ocean. We found six different foraging areas in the Atlantic. We had one in the Gulf of Mexico, one next to the Azores, the Sargasso Sea. We have Africa, and we had South America.
It was awesome to see how turtle scar were coming from everywhere.
The other part that we saw is that coastal foraging grounds, there's also a mix of different foraging, oceanic foraging grounds. And when they move out, when they reach their sexual maturity, they go to different places. It's like we have this mix of nesting foraging areas. Nesting areas, too. So turtles mix everywhere.
That's the cool part. It seems like this is a strategy to just spread their genes everywhere they can to make populations stronger in a way.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Oh, how cool. And how did you study that? Did you have tags on sea turtles as you were seeing where they were coming and going, or did you do genetic studies? It's such a fascinating question to answer. And now I'm kind of like, how did you do.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: That's another cool part. So the shell of a turtle is covered in keratin, and it grows in layers. And each layer, it's a net. So it doesn't change through time. It just accumulates the new layer beneath the old one all the way through. So what we did was take a small sample of blood carapace all the way through the connective tissue, and then analyze each of those layers. And we sample or we analyze trace elements, which are elements that you can find everywhere in nature, and stable isotopes. So when a turtle is in a specific area, geographic area, and it stays there the whole time, it acquires a chemical signature, right? So it acquires certain concentration of elements and certain elements and also certain signature of stable isotopes. When you analyze those layers, you can see the difference between open ocean and coastal foraging grounds. That's how we know where they were. By analyzing those chemical signatures, if they're geographically distinct, you will see those differences. That was the cool part, because with the trace elements and the stable isotopes, lead stable isotopes, we could see that they were using these different quarantine areas because lead isotopes have different different signatures depending on where in the ocean you are. So that's how we track them. So, yeah, turtles are really small to tag when they're born, so we had to use other sources, other methods to try to figure out where they were going.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Wow. How cool. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I've not heard of that before.
It kind of reminds me almost like the tree ring meets carbon data meets isotope analysis. Like, how cool. That is awesome.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: It's actually very similar to the three ring. So instead of growing in diameter, they grow in height. So the carapace becomes thicker with each history. Again, let's say each layer that it's accumulating. So they carry their history pretty much.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Wow, how cool. I mean, just like, imagine, like, if. I guess, like, the only equivalent I could think of for humans is if, like, our hair or something, you know, was directly tied to where we are at different parts of the world. And, like, if you could just, like, analyze a piece of hair and it could tell our life story, how crazy would that be?
Wow, that is so interesting. So clearly, you were a great scientist and studying so much about them, but you made a pretty big, important shift out of academia and go and went into nonprofits. Why did you decide to do that?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: I found academia was a very stressful environment for me. I wasn't really caught up to that.
Even though I love science, I love research, I still do some research on my own. I found that working for an NGO was a better fit for me. I can still do the research, I can still do things, but at my own pace, which is great. And the other benefit from working at an NGO is that I get to spend more time on the field sometimes and talk to people, which was something that I was kind of losing when I was at the university. It's like we focus so much on research and how things should be scientifically that we forgot this human component behind us. And I think working on an NGO has allowed me to start reconnecting again with people, try and find ways to understand why things are going in certain communities and how we can help them fix their things so we can conserve and protect sea turtles.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: I could not agree more. As I've said so many times on the show, people are probably just like, oh, Brooke, she's saying it again. Conservation is about people.
I think we all get into this field thinking that we're going to work with the species that we love the most, and then all of us. I have now talked to so many people in so many disciplines around the world, and we all Realize that, oh, it's actually about people. It's always. It always boils down to people. We go in thinking we're just gonna, you know, my. My love is big cats. I thought I was just going to be conserving big cats for the rest of my career, and then I'm like, oh, actually, it's all about humans. And so ever since then, I've been working on the human side and, you know, getting my big cat fix whenever I can just to keep me going.
But to bring it up to what you do now. So Pronatora is the NGO that you work for, a beautiful organization. So could you actually tell us more about that? How did this organization appear in your life? You know, what was that crossroads moment where you're like, this is the company that I want to work for? And maybe tell us more about it. What is your role? What is the greater goal of Pronatura?
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Okay, so Pronatura, it's a Mexican organization. It started 30 years ago in Mexico. It has six different chapters. So one of the chapters, it's Pronatura Peninsula de Yucatan, the one that I work for. They are independent chapters. Each have their own agenda in a way, because the regions where we work in Mexico are very different. So we're focusing on the different ecosystems that exist in our country.
Pronatura Peninsula de Yucatan actually didn't come into the picture until I was working on my postdoc in Texas. I was doing a postdoc, and my postdoc was ending, and I didn't really know what to do. I was in that crossroad where you said, should I continue with another postdoc here in the US or should I find something home? I was becoming who homesick at that time. I've been away from home for 20 years and visiting family only once every year.
So I was like, no, I need to go back to Mexico, find someplace where I could work close to my family. And then through other colleague, we were on a meeting in Texas about the Kemp Streetley project, and she said, well, you know, there's this organization that's looking for a program coordinator, and you might be a good fit. So why don't you write them? I can give you the contact of the person that it's actually looking for people to work there.
I contacted Pronatura. I gave an interview, and they fortunately liked my cv. They thought it was cool. So they allowed me to just come back and work. So my role in Pronatura as program coordinator has a lot to do with administrative things, getting the Funds to run the program or the projects, and working with people, selecting the personnel that is going to be working on the field, making sure that every project is running smoothly and on time and that we are producing what we're supposed to be producing for our funders. So that's my big role.
But the program, the sea turtle conservation program, it's one of the oldest in Pronatura. It just started at working on one nesting beach. The only thing that we were doing was going walking through the beach because we didn't have ATVs. There were some horses at some point, but most of the work was on food.
They were just counting nests and trying to get them to a safer place. Because poaching back in that day, we're Talking about the 1990s was a big issue in the country, you know, so there was a lot of people still catching turtles to eat. And they were also stealing their eggs to just sell them around in coastal areas. So that's what they did. That the program has been evolving a little bit. So we're still doing the nesting monitoring because it was one of the essential tools to figure out if conservation is actually working. But we're also adding other stuff like environmental education with coastal communities, why they should be protecting sea turtles and their environments, why those species are important for them, and also trying to figure out better or more eco friendly activities that they could do in order to preserve their environment. And the third component is bringing enough scientifically based information so we can create new environmental policies that actually work for sea turtles. So that's the other path that Pronaturia does.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yes. And let's start getting into all of those different pillars that you just mentioned. So you work with some very important sea turtle species and in an area that is very important to them as well. So could you talk a little bit more about that? You know, the critically endangered hawksbill sea turtles and the green turtles, why are they your focus species and what are the threats that they're facing? You just mentioned them a little bit in that area in the Yucatan Peninsula. But yeah, could you talk a little bit further about that, why they're there and how. Why are they struggling, at least from your perspective where you work?
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Sure. So hawkstail turtles are one of the most critically endangered sea turtle species worldwide. And the major reason for that is that a lot of people were hunting them just to use their carapace. So there was really no use for the meat or the eggs, just the carapace. And it was a big economic activity back in the day. Green turtles also are not as endangered as oxfield turtle. There was a point that we thought they were going to disappear because it's the most caught turtle, because it's really used for meat and other things.
That was another issue.
We focus on those two species because the two species that nest more frequently in the north coast of the Yucatan peninsula, which is where we are focused. And the Peninsula hosts about 25% of the reproductive population of hawksbill turtles in the whole Atlantic region. So these are key areas for the protection of sea turtles. And that's why we are really focused on trying to preserve the last nesting beaches where nest densities are increasing.
If these nesting beaches were to disappear, we will be losing 25% of the nesting population. And that's critical.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially for a species that's already facing so much like 25% that could potentially wipe out the species.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: I mean, that is a very real potential threat if the three beaches that you work on become developed or something like that, which we'll definitely get to that. You mentioned a little bit that your research and monitoring has evolved over the years. So what does that mean? What has changed? I think a lot of us understand the picture of walking beaches at night, making sure that nests aren't being poached or anything like that. But your work has moved beyond just patrols. So what are your monitoring practice and what insights have they brought you and the sea turtle community?
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Right. So it's been evolving because certain things have changed. So one of the things that have been changing through time are the threats. Right. So when we started the program, the fisheries of sea turtles was completely stopped. And we still had a lot of poaching and a lot of people catching turtles directly.
But we were able to manage that through a lot of environmental education throughout the country. And now poaching and direct catch, it's really small. It's almost imperceptible in the country. But other threats have arisen. Now we have climate change for once that we didn't have. We have plastic pollution that it's affecting not just the nesting beaches, but the foraging grounds. We have bycatch, which is another big issue. Lots of nets, ghost nests, nets and hooks are causing a lot of sea turtle deaths on the ocean. And the other one is coastal development.
Those threats are growing. We need to change our tactics and we need to find other ways to protect sea turtles. So instead of just focusing on nesting beaches, we also started researching other habitats where sea turtles are. So we started working with fishermen, trying to figure it out what gear was the one Causing the highest level of bycatch where they were where we're fishing and trying to find ways to reduce bycatch with them. And it has worked now because if a turtle gets entangled in a net, the fishermen now, or at least some fishermen now know how to properly disentangle the turtle and release it back into the ocean. So those are the things that we need to be working on right now. For example, because tourism is growing really fast and it's becoming one of the most important economic activities in coastal communities, we need to start working with them and trying to figure out in what ways they can have ecotourism or tourism more oriented into conserving and protecting nature. We are working with them in a way that they can value nature as they are as their main economic resource and try to protect that so they can benefit from nature for a longer period of time. And of course, turtles are a big part of that nature and they should be also conserving and protecting them.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, let's stay on tourism for a while because as you and I discussed earlier, and anybody who's been listening to the show know that I'm a big supporter of conservation tourism and it's what I do professionally in my career. But I, as I've said before, and I will continue to say, conservation tourism is a very specific sector of the greater whole of like eco tourism or an even smaller sector than tourism in general. And if tourism isn't developed with the conservation lens in mind, that a lot of things can go wrong, especially for wildlife, especially for nature. And even if people aren't meaning to hurt them, it's just, that's just what happens. So could you maybe stay on that a little further? What are you seeing in your area?
Like how is, how do you balance tourism and conservation? Are the communities receptive to tourism and like looking, viewing it. And from a more conservation minded way, are you running into pushback?
Dad, talk about tourism development a little further in the Yucatan and what you're experiencing.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Yeah.
So the Yucatan peninsula is composed of three states, right. You have Campeche on the west side. We have Yucatan, which is the north part in the middle. And then we have Quintana Ro in the east.
If you've been to Cancun, for example, Playa del Carmen, you will see that tourism there is really not ecotourism at all. It's just a bunch of hotels built right on top of the dunes and they pretty much don't have any beach left. That is a big issue. Right. So turtles there are trying to find suitable places to nest. But every year, they become less and less and less. That's not what we want in Yucatan. Tourism development is increasing, but we're not there. And what we are finding is that, at least in some coastal communities, one in particular, El Cuyo, which is where we also work, they are, you know, they. They do value nature. They are aware that what people are looking for when they come to spend some time in El Cuyo is that calm, that peace that they can feel because there's no. Not a lot of development. There's not a lot of cars. There's no noise. They just there to enjoy and have a great and peaceful time. So what we're trying to do is use that. That's what tourism is looking for. Then this is what we should be protecting.
How can people work towards that?
For instance, they now know that they don't want big hotels. They want something of very minimal impact.
They are now being conscious that every little piece of trash that they leave on the beach is going to affect how the people see their beach.
We're trying to figure out ways in which they can better manage their waste, which is ideal.
More recycling, less use of plastics.
The dune is a big, important ecosystem for sea turtles. 90% of the nests that we find on every nesting season are laid on the dune. So making them aware of that, that if we conserve the dune, then we will have a lot of turtles that will still come to a Cuyo to nest and establishing the rules on which ecotourism can actually work there.
We're not there yet, but that's one of the things that we are talking. It's like we need to establish the rules so we can have ecotourism to sea turtles and people can enjoy see them nesting.
That's one of the things.
And the other thing that we're working on is on what are you doing right now that it's actually impacting your ecosystem, where you live, and what we need to change.
If they are not aware of the damage they're causing, they're not going to change. We need to work with them and show them. Look, this is what happens when you don't put your trash in the proper places.
They react to that. Right now, we're working with them.
We just gave a workshop two months ago to a group of nature guides.
We walked through the nesting beach, and we were showing them where the turtles were nesting, what they prefer when they were looking for a spot to lay their eggs. And we were talking about the importance of the dune vegetation and why we should be protecting it and not just taking off all of the vegetation.
They got it. It's like, okay, now we understand why we shouldn't be chopping our vegetation. We were also talking about an invasive species that is causing great damage to other native vegetation. And they also write like, okay, this is harmful for us, so we're going to just start taking it off and burning it up.
That's the kind of reaction that we want to see. Right. So they are interested in having an economic income, of course, but they also want to do the things right. So that's what we need to.
Where we need to focus.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. I've definitely found that guides, especially those most committed to nature, can be the biggest advocates for nature and wildlife. It's. I mean, it's incredible the impact and just influence that great guides can have for nature. Someone who might not care about anything this at all, but you just have that one connection with somebody because they're so passionate about it. Like, it's just. That's cool. That is really cool.
Yeah, I've. I talk to some of the best guides in the world literally every single day, and I'm just like, you are the coolest people I've ever met. Yeah, I mean, a lot of cool people, but wow, guides could be some really special people. So it's very cool that they are partnering with you and Pronatora to. To figure out how they can have the least amount of impact while also bring people there and educate them and everything like that. And I want to say on the. On the they topic for a while. So when you're mentioning these communities, are they like formerly fisher fishermen communities where like, they were there for the abundance of fish that was there? Are they looking for alternative livelihoods that tourism could possibly fit in? I guess I'm just trying to understand what is the driver for these communities to switch to tourism.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. So all of these coastal communities started as fishing villages. Right. So they were dedicated to fishing. What has happened in the last decade is that the population of fish has decreased significantly and now it's getting a lot more expensive for one to just go for it out to find fish. Also dangerous because, you know, sometimes they have really bad weather now and that puts their lives at risk.
So they are switching to these other alternatives and trying to figure out ways to get some economic income. And tourism seems to be one. You know, a lot of people is trying to find these magical places to spend time with and they are seeing this an opportunity as an opportunity to you know, do something to get some money.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And if built right, it can really lead to some incredible results. I've actually sat down with some other, actually, in Mexico, other organizations that are trying their best to partner with local fishermen and helping give them both alternative livelihoods. And also the umph or like, the muscles to go to the government to help get commercial fishermen out of their fisheries and stuff like that. That was the organization orcas that are based out of La Paz. So just like, it seems to be, like, there's this awesome movement right now of these NGOs working with local people and fishermen to help both. Like, our goal is to protect and save. That particular organization is sharks. You know, your organization, your program is sea turtles. We all have this greater goal. We want more of this wildlife, but we also want you as a community to thrive. Like, how can we together reach both goals? And it seems that there is a movement now to make this happen. It's a lot of work. There's still a lot of work to go. But I feel it. Like, I feel it the more and more of you that I sit down with that are working on the front lines. Like, it seems to be working. It seems to be happening.
And so there's another thing that I wanted to ask you about that I found was really interesting, more of a threat thing, and it seems to be pretty new. That was feral dogs and raccoons.
[00:32:10] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Could you tell me more about that? Is this, like, did this pop up out of nowhere? Where are these dogs coming from? Or just raccoons being generalists, but yeah. What are you seeing from the ground?
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Yes. So predation is a natural thing. Right. So we shouldn't be worrying about that a lot. But when predation starts increasing and then you have 45% of your nests affected by this, then it is a problem because we're working with endangered species. So Holbor island, which is in the northeast corner of the Yucatan Peninsula, it's the main nesting beach for hawksbill turtles in Quintana Ro. And we have a huge issue with. With raccoon predation. What is causing this predation? We're really not sure, but it's probably related to the quick and unplanned development on the island. So Holbox is divided in two islands. Right. You have the small island where the population is settled, and then you have the big island where the nesting occurs. It connects a little bit when the tides are really low, and you have this huge development in the island. Really, there's no. Another pink cannot be put in there anymore. It's just completely full of buildings. It's an awful thing. And there's a lot of garbage, there's a lot of waste. And I think raccoons are thriving there because they have this thing. So when they cannot get enough resources on a small island, they go up to the big island and of course, they have the nests of hair at their disposition. So that's a big issue.
What we're doing in Holborg with raccoons is just using protective mesh. You know, we put squares of 1 by 1 meter on top of the nest to try to protect them from raccoons trying to enter them. It has worked a little bit, but it's always a race against the raccoons. It's always us in our ATV against the raccoons in a 24 kilometer stretch of beach. Oh, my gosh, it's huge. Yeah, it's huge. So, of course we're going to have some losses, but we try to protect as many nests as possible so we keep predation down. But then again, this is natural predators, and though we're trying to control it, it's part of nature. The other big problem is feral dogs. And we're seeing them a lot in Celestun.
The issue is that a lot of people here in the peninsula in general has a different concept of what owning a pet is. So they own a pet, but the pet is always on the street. They are always trying to find meals everywhere. And they are not sterilized. So they're reproducing a lot, every single time. And that's. That's a big issue. So now dogs, when they don't have enough resources, are now starting to attack the females nesting, which is a big, big problem we usually have. In the last five years, we've had probably 10 turtles killed by feral dogs.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: And they are also attacking the nest. So they are destroying the nests.
And that's something that we were okay with it. We had, you know, predation was probably 1% of the nest, which is really not an issue and not something that we should have worried a lot. But last year it increased to 25%.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: Holy crap.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Yes. That's a lot.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: 25%, exactly.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: So now we have an issue, right? In one year, we have a lot of feral dogs in the beach just destroying the nest and attacking the females. And that's something that we need to work on urgently. So the goal that we have next is to try to talk with local authorities, try to figure out mechanisms to start One, sterilizing those dogs because we cannot have more dogs around on the beach. And also educating people about how a responsible owner should be and what they should be doing and the problem that their dogs are causing because otherwise this could increase significantly.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Isn't it crazy how just what we do changes over time? I mean, did you suspect, like, even three years ago you would be, like, rallying cry right now to get feral dogs away from turtles?
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Definitely not. And that is also a big problem because it's related to coastal development. Unplanned coastal development.
It's just everything is connected. So we need to figure out a way to also stop those kinds of development.
That's a big issue.
The other big problem that we have is that all of these nesting beaches are inside natural protected areas. There are supposed to not be developed because they are natural protected areas. They're supposed to maintain their characteristics as much as they can. But now that we have this bureaucracy in Mexico, that it's just allowing these huge investors to come and just build where they shouldn't, which is a big issue.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: And actually, you just brought up the next topic I want to discuss with you, because as I've seen time and time again in the US around the world, a lot of what happens or what is decided or what is actually executed for conservation is based on policy and government regulations from all the way from the top, all the way to local governments, what is the law, who is enforcing it, who's partnered with them, and all that kind of stuff. So could you explain that a little further for us that might not understand how environmental policy works in Mexico. Could you talk about that a little further and then narrow down to how it works with you, like where you're at? And it sounds like it might not be going that well, but just teach us about environmental policy in Mexico and Yucatan.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So I have to say that our environmental policies are one of the best in Latin America. If you read them, it's like, yes, this works. It should be perfect. The problem comes down to implementation. Who is implementing them, for one and two, who is responsible of what you're saying, prosecuting all of those people that are not complying with the policies here in Mexico? The big issue is that we have different institutions that are in charge of different things. So, for example, we have profepa, which is the police, the environmental police. They are the ones that would go and say, you're committing an environmental crime, and, you know, we need to stop this. But they do not have the authority to prosecute. They do not have the authority to arrest someone if they're doing a crime, they have to go accompanied with, by police or by any other institution. And sometimes that coordination is what, it's not working.
Now you have Profepa. Profepa has all of the documentation about the crime. They go to the fiscalia, which is, I do not know the equivalent in the US but it has to go to another institution. That institution will open the case and do all of the investigation and they are the ones that could actually prosecute. But sometimes that doesn't even work because Profepa didn't get all of the evidence maybe, or there was something missing and it just stayed there. So nothing happens. And the people committing the crime knows that nothing is happening and they will continue to commit that crime. So one of the things that I actually like from the US is that you have the US Fish and Wildlife Service, right? And they have this. This.
I forgot the word. But they're, they're guards, They're.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: They're the rangers. Is that what you mean?
[00:40:44] Speaker B: Rangers? Thank you. Yes, but the rangers can do all of that, right? So if the ranger shows someone causing a crime, they can go and arrest that person, take it to the cops and then do all of the things. That's the part that we, we are lacking here in Mexico.
If that would change, I don't know. But right now it seems that we are the only line of defense. Pronatura as an ngo, doesn't have any of this faculty. So the only thing that we can do is just report the crime and hope that all of these other institutions will work in coordination and maybe, just maybe get that person punished for the crime that committed. Permitted, but that's it. So that's, that's the complication here that we have.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: And it seems like from our conversation so far that stopping development or if development happens, being in a very earth friendly way, if we are to, you know, protect these beaches and this critical nature and how habitat while also helping communities. So it seems that that has to come from the top down.
You know, this is the policy you have to build in this way. And the only way that you can build is if you get this. So is that something that you and your team are trying to. I don't know if lobby is the right term, but go to the government and be like these need to be better policy in place as this development or local communities.
So yeah. What is, what is your role or Provenatura's role in stopping the unsustainable development of tourism in these critically habitat areas?
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Right. So one of the things that we're working on is that it's. Well, first of all the, the coastal beaches are run by ejidos which are, you know, community owned land. Right. So the one thing that we are working with them is that make them understand the value of their land. That it's a lot more valuable to use it for conservation and other things than to sell it to someone that it's going to build a huge hotel in there. That's one of the things that we're working on.
The other thing that we're doing is try to work with the, the municipality so the municipal government have some power to decide what kind of constructions you want inside your natural protected area.
So what we're doing right now is to say, okay, if we're going to construct because development or it's almost unavoidable, we need to find a way to make it more balanced.
If we're going to build something, it has to follow the certain rules.
That's where we can inside give them the information, all the technical information that they need to actually regulate how construction is going to happen in those protected areas. Of course there has to be a component of conservation and remediation, otherwise it's not going to work.
We are also working at higher levels and saying, you got to stop this development is really not a response. It's not something that will thrive. Our economic development, again, you cannot put economic development on top of nature, which is the basis of everything.
Without nature we won't have anything.
We're trying to focus a little bit in using those tools. These are the.
So there's this 2030 program that it's trying to have better ways of life for people. And what we're trying to make them understand is precisely that if you want to reduce poverty, we need to keep our ecosystems healthy so people can still get their ecosystem services from them.
Economic development is not going to happen and we do not take care of nature first. That's one of the things that we're working.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. I know that you also, if you could elaborate last time you and I sat down, we chatted for a while that some of the research that Proto Natura and your team developed for sea turtles was actually. Wasn't it like submitted to the government and put into place in some way for.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Could you talk about that a little further?
[00:45:30] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. So all of the information that we're producing from our nest images and what we find and you know, with the work with fishermen, some of Them has been published. So it's scientific research published online. But we also submitted it to semart and, and we also produce it to CONAM so they can have a better idea what is going on, what are threats at? And they can produce those policies that we need or actions that we need to reduce the threats that affects eternals. So that's one of the things. So we produce a lot of technical reports.
Sometimes they, you know, the authorities asked us for technical opinions on certain development projects and that's been helpful because we can guide them to say yes, that is an acceptable project or no, it's not complying with any of these policies that we have in place. So that's sort of the things that we're doing.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: And so if we're looking at this bigger picture, because you and I just did a deep dive into lots of different things.
Since you've been working on sea turtle conservation now, like you said, for 30 years, I'm sure you've seen a lot change over that time. But what do you think are the most critical things that we should be paying attention to or working towards to stop, you know, the decline of sea turtle populations and then even reverse, like how do we restore hawksbill and green sea turtle populations and if that can be extended to other species, what are those like, critical things that we should be like really honing on and focusing on?
[00:47:23] Speaker B: The things that we should be focusing on are definitely how to protect the nesting beaches. Pain nesting beaches, make them more sustainable for people and for us. The other thing is waste management. We definitely should be working on waste management.
It's not enough to just put your garbage in the garbage can is how that is going to be processed throughout to their final destination.
So if we do not have anything in place that is going to cause more problems and solutions for once.
The other thing that we need to work on is on reducing bycatch. That's, that's the other part again. Fishermen are still going to be fishermen. They're not going to change their way of life. And so what we need to do is help them figure out a way in which their, their baggage is reduced. Either by telling them how often they should check their nets or to change their gear or to change the area where they fish a little bit. That, that will be something, something helpful.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: Just out of curiosity, does commercial fishing boats have a big impact in sea turtle populations as a whole? And also in your area, do you.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: See boats coming in, not commercial fishing. That is actually pretty much non existent in the Atlantic, especially the Gulf of Mexico, there's, you know, we don't have commercial fleets. A lot of them are artisanal fisheries and that's what causing, what is causing the major bycatch problems here in the area. So it's a lot easier to work with fishermen, you know, coastal community fishermen because they kind of, kind of understand easier what it's at stake instead of commercial fishers.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Okay, that's, that makes sense. That makes sense. That again is also in line with, you know, sitting down with ORCAS and some other organizations that I've sat down with in Mexico. That seems to be a theme.
I mean some of them are dealing with more commercial fisher fisheries, but I think they go out a little further. So you know, they, they work with shark populations stuff. So. Okay, that makes total sense. So at least I'm glad you don't also have that on top of everything like a big old trawler coming through and it's completely devastating the area that you work in. So at least, at least we got that going. At least we got that going.
So as you're looking to your work specifically, and I know that this is a hard question to answer, but what does success look like for you and maybe even for proven Toro Peninsula de Yucatan as a whole? Whole. What is success?
[00:50:20] Speaker B: Yeah, actually we have a long term goal and our goal is precisely this idea of how we look at success. So for us success will be, you know, a world in which sea turtles are thriving, but coastal communities are also thriving and know that they're having a more balanced economic activities and conservation of nature. That's where our success looks. If we see turtles thriving and we see coastal communities thriving, but also using sustainable tools to do their economic activities, that is success for us.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: Beautiful. I cannot agree more. Thanks to take this to us listening.
I, I happen to be in like the fricking middle of the United States. I'm so far away from the ocean it's not even funny. But I care a lot about sea turtles and marine ecosystems and I'm sure that a lot of people listening, whether or not they live by the sea, also care significantly for sea turtles, marine species, marine ecosystems. So how can we help support sea turtle conservation no matter where we are?
[00:51:31] Speaker B: Oh yeah, that's an excellent point.
There's so many ways that people can protect and conserve sea turtles, starting by what things you do on your regular day.
Big problem that we have with sea turtles is plastic pollution everywhere. So let's start reducing our plastic waste. That's one of the things. The other thing is if you have the time, come down to the nesting beach and work as a volunteer for a month or something. You can have that experience and see these organisms, how wonderful they are, how majestic they look, how fragile they could be while they're laying their eggs. That's an awesome thing to do.
The other part, of course, is you can grab a phone and call your religion representatives and tell them that you're worried about sea turtle conservation and that they should be doing some actions. That's one of the other thing that you could do.
Donating. Supporting programs that are dedicated to conservation is another one. So again, if you have the time and you have the chance, just donate to something that you are passionate about. It doesn't have to be sea turtles. It could be big cats, for example. In your case, it could be birds, it could be butterflies, something that you're passionate about. Just be there and support them. That's essential. And the other part is that communicate to other people, say, if you like sea turtles, well, I just heard about this awesome program.
You could dance. So let's do something and try to help them. That is also ideal as more people know about the work that we're doing, not just us Pronatura, but biologists and conservationists around the world, as more people know about the work that we're doing, how hard it is to just keep it going and how important it is. The better, the more people interested, the more people working together to get this conservation going, to get this better planet. Oop, it's. It's ideal.
[00:53:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's why again, how we were just talking about how our journeys wind up. Like, I realized that same thing. Like I was meeting all these amazing people like you and others around the world, and no one had heard their story. I'm like, this isn't fair. Why am I the only one that knows what you're doing? You know, so just becoming a megaphone and using just 20, 24 age platforms like this to just try to help people connect and, and meet you, meet Melania and, and go down to these nesting beaches and help support and connect and just time. I mean, there's just, like you said, there's no way that we could go down to one of these nesting beaches and not be a different person, you know, walking the beaches, you know, holding a baby sea turtle in our hands and like helping them get to the.
Or whatever project that Pronatora needs help with at that time. Like that just. That is what I really love tourism for in those, in those type of moments.
Yeah. So I think that the next logical question then is how can we support you directly? Is there a website that we can go to reach out on? Is there any way that people can connect with you if they want to learn more about sea turtles in Yucatan or. Yeah, just. Just drop all of that. How can we support you?
[00:55:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you.
We have a website, Pronatura Peninsula, Yucatan. You can find us on Facebook, on Instagram and we have a specific page for donation. Another option is through Sea Turtle that you know you can donate directly to the 1 billion baby 1 billion baby turtle 5 fund.
They've been helping us for the last five years, I think now. So any money that comes through them will get to us. That's. That's another option. And what's the other way? I think that's. Those are the two ways that you can actually find us on online and donate.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: Awesome. And if anybody wants to connect with you, Are you online?
[00:55:56] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. That was the third that was question that I was forgetting. Yeah, you can email me in our webpage. There's my email. You can contact me for sure. You can contact us through Facebook too. You just leave your comment and we will be able to answer whatever question you have.
And the other thing that I forgot to say, and I think it's crucial is that the other thing that you can do to help us and help nature in general is just start connecting with nature again. That's basic. Leave your computer, leave your ipod, leave your Xbox for a second and just go out and admire nature. That's something that we've been kind of losing in the last decade. You know, nature is so important and believe me, you will feel a lot better if you just go out for five minutes and walk in the park or on beach or whatever you are just for find your nature spot and go there. It will give you a different perspective for sure.
[00:56:58] Speaker A: I could not agree more. I've been doing a lot of that myself as I was out in the Rocky Mountains for many years. And I just loved it so much. And I'm trying to figure out how to connect with the nature here in Ohio, where I grew up and just being right at the Appalachians, Appalachian Mountains and stuff. Wow, there is so much even just like you said, a park, it doesn't have to be the most wild place. It doesn't have to be like these crazy adventures that I go on or that used to be in my backyard when I was out west. It's just yesterday I spent an hour, I found a local park that was five minutes away from my place and I was there for an hour and oh my gosh, I was like a kid in a candy shop and I just, I didn't realize how much I had missed it. Even as somebody who this is what I do every single day, even I have to remind myself to get off the computer, to stop working and go experience nature myself. And so I completely get it. Right now. The owls are migrating so I've been trying to look at all those crevices see if I can find any owls. As a mammal person, I definitely need some of my birder friends to come out here and help me. Please, my birder friends come help me. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying my best. I have somebody binoculars. That's about, that's about as far as I've gotten. So. But Melania, you are a wonderful person and I enjoy every single moment of this conversation and I just want to extend a thanks to you for your your work, your dedication, a decades, decades, decades long career just to help this fascinating group of animals. So again, thanks for the time and I cannot wait to get your story out.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: Thank you so much for the invitation. It's always a pleasure to talk about turtles and for meeting you and for helping us spread the word about conservation.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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