[00:00:00] Speaker A: Learn how to support the Rebotology podcast and sign up for the
[email protected] support the show across North America, millions of monarch butterflies embark on an extraordinary migration spanning thousands of miles. Yet behind this natural wonder lies an urgent conservation story as their populations face steep declines. What can be done to save this iconic species and how can their survival inspire us to protect biodiversity on a broader scale?
Welcome back to Rewadology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
In today's episode, I'm sitting down with Rebecca Quinones Pinon, Ph.D. program director of Climate Resilient Habitats and Monarch Recovery Strategist at the National Wildlife Federation.
I was so excited when I was contacted to interview Rebecca as she is the perfect person to teach us about monarch butterfly conservation. Not only is she a fantastic scientist, but she's from Mexico and grew up close to the butterflies overwintering grounds, giving her a unique perspective on the significance of monarch butterflies for local cultures.
Additionally, throughout the conversation, Rebecca and I discussed the natural history of monarch butterflies and how their complex migration is tracked across get this Three Nations Three Huge nations Wild right Rebecca also shares insights into the possible listing of monarchs as threatened under the Endangered Species act, which is a huge topic in the conservation sphere right now, as well as some community based conservation efforts. She's involved with the challenges posed by climate change and pesticides and what we as individuals can do to protect pollinators in our own backyards.
Before we dive in, I want to thank today's sponsor, Sea Turtles spelled S E E Turtles Sea Turtles mission is to connect people with sea turtles in meaningful, personal and memorable ways and help the sea turtle community connect, grow and thrive by supporting community based conservation efforts around the world. I've personally admired sea turtles work for years and I am so excited that they're sponsoring this episode. If you're inspired by this conversation and want to take action, check out sea turtles.org rewild to learn five ways you can help sea turtles from joining a conservation trip to saving a baby turtle and even fighting the illegal trade. Plus, Rewildology listeners can get $50 off of a conservation trip by using the promo code rewild.
All right, let's jump in. Here's my conversation with Rebecca from the National Wildlife Federation.
Well hi Rebecca, I am so excited to be sitting down with you at a very pertinent time with some big information that is coming out very right now about your species of interest. So I couldn't be more excited to sit down with you and get this information out to our entire conservation community and the National Wildlife Federation community and everybody. So first though, where I always love to start these is I want to get to know you and I feel like sometimes we don't get to know the people behind these stories. Stories. But Rebecca, please tell us, what's your story? Why did you decide to study the monarch butterfly?
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation. I'm super excited to be here and have this conversation with you. Well, it's a long story. I'll make it short. I don't want to use the one hour to tell you my whole story. But yeah, fortunately, I would say fortunately because I love what I do. Since a very early age, I was interested in science. That was my thing. I remember I was not the, the, the girl asking on Christmas time for adult, but I was asking for science kids. So it's kind of interesting. I love that. And I was super interested in science and I always saw myself like wearing a white jacket and glasses and being working at a lab and I always loved that. I was fascinated by science since that early age. And well, as I grew up, I start turning into biology, which ended up being hydrobiology as my college degree. And then water, I, I noticed that water was one of the topics that I was super interested on. So from there it did evolve to environmental engineering just to complement the work that I was doing with hydrobiology and conservation of wildlife. From there I decided to go and get my PhD in Canada at the University of Calgary, where everything was complemented with geographical information systems, remote sensing and forest hydrology and the conservation of forests and studying how habitat fragmentation was affecting tree transpiration.
It's like, where is this going? Anyways, from there, of course, conservation of forest is closely related to the monarch butterfly.
That's where everything comes together.
After I completed my PhD, it was fate that I met this group in Michoacan working at the reforestation of the Monarch butterfly Biosphere Reserve. So we start talking about mapping the areas that they were reforesting and observing how fragmentation was affecting the health of those forests. So I started working with them and over time I noticed the great role that monarch was playing in all this conservation of the forests in Mexico. The Monarch is iconic there. Funny enough, I grew up going to a, a town that is very close to the Monarch, where the Flybysfield Reserve. My mom was born in that town.
So when I was a child I used to hear these stories about the monarchs arriving during the Day of the Dead and overwintering there for long months. But it's kind of interesting because back then we took it for granted. I mean, that was 20 something years ago and they were so vast and the populations arriving to Mexico were so large that the monarchs are here, it's fine, right? But as I grew up and I had the chance to go on my own to visit the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere reserve, that also had a great impact on me seeing the massive amount of butterflies overwintering in those areas.
It was fascinating and also of course, inspired me to do conservation. So at some point in my life those two areas of interest came together and then I decided to focus more on the conservation of the monarch butterfly and the habitat restoration, which was linked as well to the work that I was doing with forest hydrology. So I'm at a point in my life that I feel quite fortunate that I can continue elevating the science, providing science fact based information to my colleagues to support as well their conservation efforts and to continue promoting the restoration of habitats, which is crucial not only for the conservation of the monarch butterfly, but many other species.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: Just how cool to hear your story and to think that this super impactful part of your childhood can now be a part of your professional life. Isn't that just crazy how those things work out when you like look back?
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I would have never thought that I was going to end it up than this. And sometimes people are like, oh well, you were inspired by that. It's like, yes, but it was kind of at some point in my life was not something that just when I was a child I said I'm going to work on monarchs, you know, but it was, I think a passion for wildlife in many different environments. As you see, I started as a hydrobiologist and now here I am doing inline inland conservation work. So. But I'm just so glad that I'm in this field.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: Absolutely.
You're the perfect person to talk to about all these long list of questions that I have. I cannot wait to learn from you. And I'm very excited for this conversation. So first, I think it just makes sense that we're all on the same information level. You know, somebody might be listening from Africa or in Europe and they might not know. Or even here in the us like we don't exactly know other than what they look like, you know, the classic orange and black might. We don't have like an understanding of like their biology or their natural history of the monarch butterfly. So could you could you tell us a little bit more about them themselves as like a species. Just a little bit more facts about Monarch butterflies, like their distribution, like their ecological niche. Why are they so cool? All those things. Just teach us, teach us about the Monarch butterflies.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Sounds good. Okay.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: So.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Well the, the Monarch butterfly is, is one of the most well known insect species and pollinator species and not only the US but around the world. The Monarch has created that amazing emotional connection with people, with the public, and has been a tool for education as well in the classroom. So it's, it's very well known among many people. However, not everyone, as you say, it's also very familiar with other aspects of its ecology and biology. The Monarch butterfly, the subspecies that we have in the US is the only subspecies that is a migratory one.
So its range is vast as well. It covers about 48 of our states. Here in the US we have two populations, two migratory populations. The one that it's located in the west of the US and the one that is located in the east of US.
These two populations not only reside in those areas, but also they cover the southern portion of Canada, all the provinces in Canada.
The eastern population is the one that during the fall migrates to south central Mexico and overwinters within the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve. The western migratory population migrates from the northwest of the U.S. the southwest of Canada to the California groves. And they overwinter in, in that area until both populations, they overwinter until around February, beginning of March when the temperatures change. And then they migrate back north to spend the summertime in their breeding areas. Another interesting part of this, this insect is that it is known to be the only insect species that has a two way migration. It's fascinating because all this process is created the migration process, the breeding process. There are about four to five generations involved in this. It's not the same, the same individual that creates or does all this process. So it's a little bit complicated. I'll try to explain it. But when the Monarch arrives to Mexico, we're talking about what we know to be the fourth or fifth generation of that year or that cycle and then they spend the winter there. And I would like to be very clear there that they are not hibernating. Many people sometimes think that they are hibernating, but actually what is happening is that they are just spending the winter, they are walking away from extreme weather in the north, the snow, the lack of nectar plants, the lack of milkweed, and they go to a more temperate, still cold, but more temperate weather. In south central Mexico or the California grows that 4ft generation continues to stay there once more until February, March and as soon as the temperatures change, start increasing.
That's a trigger for the Monarch to know that it is time to start mating.
And then once they mate the females, mostly the females start migrating back north.
And as they are migrating north they lay eggs and in brand new milkweed that is the sprouting during the spring. So that will create the first iteration of the next cycle.
So it'll take from the first generation of that cycle to the, probably the second third generation for them to reach out the Midwest in the east and then the northwest states in the west of our country.
So those Monarchs will spend the time the rest of the summer in that area only to produce the fourth generation and start migrating back south.
So it's a complicated phenomenon that also makes us think or it shows that the ranch of the Monarchs is, is vast.
They cover so many different ecosystems throughout their breeding habitat and migration pathways that is very complicated. They mingle and interact with so many other insect species and predators. They are also a source of food for many other individuals. This is nature. So they need to be present in other places in order to be the source of food for other species.
The role of the Monarch butterfly in different ecosystems is definitely key. And that's why it is really important for us to continue promoting the conservation of these species.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: And to understand, understand scale here. Around how far is the most northern butterflies going to get to their southern wintering grounds in Mexico? Around how far is that?
[00:17:04] Speaker B: It's about, it has been estimated to be about like 3,000 miles where they migrate.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Wow. Yes, it's, yeah it's, it's, it's, that's like almost incomprehensible.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: I know for a bug that's this size. Yes it, it's, it's amazing. So the, it's the, the phenomenon of migration is unique. It's one of a kind. And to see as you say, see this, this tiny Monarch to perform that, that long migration, it, it's just amazing. It's amazing.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it really is. And the more that I learn about this phenomenon, the more I just completely just get blown away by it because it is truly one of a kind. Especially once I learned that it's multiple generations that are doing it. And like how do you all know how to do this? Like this is just mind blowing. It's been going on for millennia. They've been doing this. So what my next question then, since this is such a complicated life history it is multiple countries, you know, long from Canada all the way down to Mexico. How do you as a researcher, as your, as you and your team, how do you track and monitor and monitor these Monarch populations? Like what is your methodologies to study these insects, these incredible unique insects.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Right, yeah. So before I answer that let me just comment on something that you say that it's crucial, it's super important too is how do they know where they are going?
There are so many environmental factors that are allowing the Monarch to know when is the time for them to start migrating south and migrating north. One of them, and we know this really well now is climate, the weather. It's one of the main predictors of the migration of the Monarch butterflies. However linked to that is also the presence of milkweed. The native plant is the only host plant of the Monarch and also the presence of nectar plants. So there are maps that show the distribution of native milkweeds across the US and Mexico and you can see the clearly pathway of migration of the Monarch. They are super smart. Another trigger for the Monarchs to know that it is time for migration is the position of the sun. Sunlight is crucial. There are some studies that have shown that Monarchs respond to sunlight and even to artificial light which is another topic that we can talk about later if you want. How the artificial light in urban areas is affecting the Monarchs. But those are the main factors that are allowing the Monarch to know when it is time for them to start moving around.
Yeah, wow.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's super helpful.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: So going back to your other question, tracking Monarchs, that's a very fascinating question too. For instance, sometimes I think about it, we talk about these 3,000 mile migration. It's just an estimate and we normally see it as going from point A to point B because that's the only way that we have been able to track the Monarchs until this point. Many years ago. Decades ago a Canadian scientist developed this method or technique to track Monarchs which is by tagging them, putting a tiny tag and the wing of the Monarchs and then just hoping that that Monarch will be found somewhere across their migration pathway. That was the way in which the Monarch butterfly biospheric was found.
The scientist was the, his name, last name is Arcourt and he was the one who developed that, that methodology.
So it took him years to figure where the Monarchs were spending the winter. It was the whole mystery and it was through citizen science that those places were able to be found he, he or posted in many places back then. I mean the resources were not like our Internet and social Media and all that. So it was like newspapers asking for the public to collaborate with them on this research and help them to find the, the, the places where the monarchs were going. Because at some point there it was just like a big mystery. They were just like disappearing from the map.
So a couple, let me see if I can remember their name. Kruger. It was Kathy and her husband, Kathy Krueger. They decided to volunteer to do that and they were the ones who found. And that was exactly 15 years ago yesterday, January 9th.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: No way.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: So 15 years ago.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: They found the overwintering grounds in Mexico.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: Can you imagine? Can you imagine? No, like being the first people to witness that. Well, at least I'm sure like indigenous tribes had seen them before. But like the first like yes, Western eyes. Oh my gosh.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: So and you're right, I mean, yeah, the local people, the indigenous groups in Mexico, they knew that they were there but they not sharing that information. And I have spoken with Kathy before and she has explained to me that they used to ask people in those areas and they were showing photos of the monarchs, like have you seen this little insect that right here? And they were like no, no, we don't know. So it took them a while for them to find the sites. Anyways going there, what Arcourt said at that point when he finally went to see the sites is that he found a monarch, that it was stacked in those areas. So that was the last confirmation that those were exactly the monarchs that were migrating and overwintering Mexico. That program has evolved at this point to a tagging program that is managed by Monarch Watch.
And we have many citizen scientists across the US who are very passionate about helping with this program. And during the fall everyone can buy those tags from Monarch Watch and then there is a process to report, register the information with the tag number, place the tag and the monarchs wings, there's a specific place to do that and then release the monarchs.
And that's how we have tracked them until now. More recently, it was about one or two years ago, another group of scientists start working in a more elaborated and up to date system to do that, which is through inserting a sort of tiny microchip on monarchs and setting up stations, tower stations across the migration pathway in order to track in a more detailed way the migration of the monarch butterfly. It is still under development, but it seems like in the future that's how we're going to start tracking monarchs and understanding better what are the places where the monarchs rest during the migration pathway, which is also super crucial because we need to ensure that those places are conserved and preserved for the monarchs to have a place to rest and refuel while they are migrating.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Wow, that's a brand new.
I mean, gosh, to think how big or like, well, how small that tracker would have to be to not impede a monarch butterfly. That is incredible that technology has come that far.
You know, like just thinking about the massive collars that the first iteration of wildlife tracking and just how cumbersome they used to be, now to the point where we have the technology to put it on a monarch butterfly. That is mind blowing.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it is, it is mind blowing. So it's fortunately, yeah, scientists have come together and they are doing that and actually there is an effort now to start growing up that community and ensuring that more scientists and some citizen scientists start contributing more in tagging the monarch. Well, not tagging, inserting the tiny microchip of monarchs and then releasing them and track them. So, yeah, I'm hoping there's going to be a large effort in a couple of years and see what else we can learn about monarchs.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so going to what we currently know, since you've been working on the species now for so long, you said, like 20 years now you've been working on this. I'm sure you've collected so much data and just have so much data in your brain after that amount of time of working on this species. So what have you learned in your time? And because I know that we've all heard about the massive decline in monarch butterfly numbers and I'm sure that that is, as a conservationist, conservation biologist, that is a big topic of yours as well, like what is driving this decline? So could you clarify that a little bit further for us?
I guess a multitude of different questions are in this one. Like, what is actually driving this decline from, like a scientific side? Are you all seeing what is the data showing you? I guess what is the data at all? Like, we just hear headlines on New York Times and all these different outlets that, oh, my gosh, the monarchs are down, you know, X percent and it's always a large percent. Like, how was that number even reached? And is there a difference between like the western and eastern populations and stuff? So, yeah, I would just, could you just please clarify the headlines for us?
What are you seeing as an actual data scientist studying these, these populations? What is going on with them?
[00:28:35] Speaker B: Well, definitely the data shows that the Monarch continues to have a steady decline data about the population size of the monarchs, both the eastern and the western populations that Started to be collected about 20 years ago and we have seen the declines.
There are some scientists who disagree on this. Because Monarchs as an insect, it is considered that insect populations tend to have these big differences in population sizes from one year to another. However, there are some techniques that we can use, methods to determine if it is actually something that those numbers are showing us a decline or not.
Just recently, I run what is known as a rolling average of five years.
And doing that, it we can see, I can definitely see that the populations continue to decline. I mean, there's no doubt about it.
When the Monarch was petitioned to be listed as a threatened species by a group of scientists and nonprofit organizations by then, and that was back in 2014, the population size of the Monarch in the Eastern declined by 84% in 2021. It was really scary because the, the reports of the population size of the the western Monarch went down to 99.9%.
So I mean, it is clear, the numbers and the science are clear and are indicating that the Monarchy is indeed declining. There are other indicators of that. We have seen how the climate change has been a big threat to the Monarch in both the west and the Eastern, the western population. Back in 2021 when that happened. Previous to that, we witnessed those serious forest fires in California. So we think that we don't have a strong proof of that, unfortunately. But that could have been one of the reasons why the Monarchs were not present in the overwintering sites. But still the population size, it was 1,914 monarchs when normally back then, 20 years ago, we used to count like 1.2 million monarchs.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: That is crazy.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: So climate change is one of the main factors affecting not only because as I was explaining to you before, climate is or weather, the temperatures are really important for the Monarch to know when they have to migrate, et cetera, but also because it has affected the synchrony between flowering plants and the presence of milkweed with temperatures. And that's another story. We call that the phenology. And I can explain to you a little bit later if you like, but it's a series of factors that are affecting directly the Monarch and its habitats.
The heavy precipitations that happened a few years ago in the west as well, decimated some of the trees where the Monarchs were overwintering.
So those Monarchs died when the trees went down. And heavy rains is something that is not very suitable for Monarchs, especially if the temperatures always also start to decline. So it's just a series of factors related to climate change and those extreme weather events that we are witnessing that are definitely affecting the population sizes.
Another threat that we know it is key in all this decline is the excessive use of pesticides.
We have not benefited the monarchs by using pesticides in such an excessive and unnecessary way in even our homes and in some rural areas.
Finally, of course, is the loss of infragmentation of their habitat due to urbanization, especially the change of land use.
So those are the three main factors that are affecting the. The monarch butterfly.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, those are three massive issues. Like when you think about it, because one of my big questions was, what's agricultural role in all of this? And is that the main thing is pesticides? Because I just think of the. The whole middle United States. I'm sure that pre industrialization, like when the Europeans came and the plains were still this big, vast, beautiful wild landscape. I'm sure milkweed grew rampant back then.
So. And now all of that entire area is just plowed. I mean, if everybody. They're called flyover states now because there's nothing there anymore. I've looked down many, many times and driven across the Midwest and to think that that was just this vast, incredibly dense landscape.
So has agricultural play or agricultural practices played a big part in this as well? Is it only pesticides? Is it getting also rid of their food source? Or is there another factor that I'm not even thinking about that could be a huge driver in this too?
[00:35:04] Speaker B: That's a great question, and I will be very careful answering that. I don't consider myself an expert, I would say, on the agricultural portion of this.
A few weeks ago, we had this pretty cool virtual rally about the recovery in America's wildlife Act.
And I, I was fortunate to be part of it. But also Doc Ptolemy was there. And in that rally, virtual rally, Dr. Tallamy mentioned something that we all appreciated so much.
He said, 20 years ago, we had agriculture and we had monarchs.
That's something that we need to keep in mind because there's no way that we can survive as a human race without agriculture. Agriculture is crucial for the survival of humankind. So we need to be very careful when it comes to saying, yeah, agriculture is to blame.
However, it's the portion, as you were saying, of the pesticides. Right.
And that's something that we are trying to understand better. I think we need to start thinking of best pesticide management practices where if the use of pesticides is necessary, there are ways in which that could be controlled in a better way.
And those are conversations now that the monarch has been proposed to be listed as threatened. That are going around the scientific community. And I'll be happy to come back later once we have a more solid comment on the pesticide side. What we're proposing to do, going back to what we know that is being published and has science based information, is several years ago, almost 10 years ago, this journal paper came out showing these graphs of the match of the declines of the monarch butterfly with.
They used this other pesticide. My goodness is slipping out of my mind in agricultural lands. I remember the name, but there was this graph showing that correlation between the declines of the monarch and the increase of the use of that specific roundup pesticide. And that was a clear indication of what was happening. So once more we're talking about the unnecessary, excessive use of pesticides.
If we say, why are we using pesticides at home? Why do we have to call somebody to spray pesticides in our lawn every month?
Could we use other methods to control some pests at home if we need to do that? But that's where I would start.
Even at home, there's no need for us to be spraying our lawns with pesticides or herbicides every month.
Yeah.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for elaborating on that. And yeah, and also thanks for not demonizing agriculture because it's so easy to do. Like, it's so easy to say that these big ranchers, these big industrial farms are like the, you know, the, the demon or the devil of all conservation stuff, when in reality we wouldn't be here as a species, like you said, like we couldn't sustain the populations that we have. We couldn't feed people if it wasn't for these people that put in all this hard effort. And where I'm from, I know, like I grew up with farmers. Like I grew up in a very rural area, rural part of the U.S.
and so, and they're stewards of the land. And so if anything, we need them more than ever. We need those people to be good stewards of the land. And so the last thing we want to do is demonize these people that are like, I'm trying to feed all of you and you're calling me the devil. Like, you know what I mean.
[00:39:42] Speaker B: Exactly, yes, absolutely. And you know, we can work with them on conservation. They're amazing people and they are willing to help. And there are ways in which we can create a system where the food production exists and then there are some patches of milkweed and nectar plants around it. These are things that have been conversations and in some places implemented with farmers.
And it works. So it's just a matter of working all together and ensuring that we can coexist and also, I mean feed the population but also make sure that we continue to conserve monarchs. It's not a, an easy conversation but this is the kind of conversation when we all need to come to the table and ensure that we all coordinate with as you were saying, demonizing anyone but working all together to make sure that yeah, everything continues to happen. Food production and the conservation of the monarch.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm such a big advocate for online for never trying to demonize somebody else because you don't know who. You're that potential ally that could be on your side if you just had that right conversation like you're pushing them away. So I've always been a big advocate for just just don't, just, just don't blatantly blame somebody else for just stuff to see. Cause you never know that person could be the one person you need to get this conservation programs moving forward. And on that note, are there any notable community based conservation projects that you've been a part of that have been moving the needle in the right direction for restoring monarch populations or monitoring them or anything you've been involved with and I guess anywhere in the range. I mean because you're from Mexico, you work in the United States. Like you know the monarchs go all the way up to Canada. So I'm sure just the examples you have are a lot. But what are some of those of these community based conservation efforts and programs that have been effective for monarchs?
[00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
So let's start in Mexico in the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve. So the local communities in Mexico are very passionate about the Monarch. They love the monarch. They appreciate the this little insect so much that they have worked for many years on finding ways to coexist once more with the species and also ensure that they conserve and protect the spaces where the monarch cover winters. So to start there we know Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve. It means that data spaces dedicated to the as habitat for the monarch.
So the practices that can be effective there are very limited. The logging practices, commercial logging is not allowed for instance. However, they have this ecotourism activity that every winter it's very active.
But still in Mexico they have work on reforestation efforts with these local communities as well. And many of these communal landowners have small nurseries that are allowing to produce the trees that are helping to the reforestation of the research.
And at the same time there are other local nonprofit organizations working on teaching other ways to the local communities to have sources of income. They Produce, for instance, berries, which is very easy to grow in that area due to the climate as well and the altitude. So now they are, like, berries producers. That's their source of income. The ladies are really good at weaving baskets, which are beautiful, and they do it by collecting just the pine needles around the reserve. And they're beautiful. And the smell of those baskets, I.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: Was gonna say, I'm thinking of the smell right now.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: I have some at home and I love them. It's just, again, it's just. Yes. Beautiful work they do. So the local people in some nonprofit organizations are working on seeking ways to create other sources of income for the locals so they don't need to make use of the wood as commercial wood. Within the reserve in the US There had been some large efforts for habitat restoration and the conservation of some habitats at different scales.
I think that doing habitat restoration is one of the core activities that we could do in order to not only conserve the Monarch, but many other species in Canada.
The efforts as well is mostly on education and also preserving and conserving some of the. The breeding sites in the southern portion of Canada. In other places, they are working even on introducing their native milkweeds as well, because due to the development of those habitats into something else, they have lost the milkweeds that are present there.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a lot. And actually, I would like to go back to Mexico for a second, if we could. You've written a lot about the cultural importance of monarch butterflies in Mexico, and could you talk a little bit more about that? What do monarch butterflies mean to the local communities that, you know, love these insects? I know you brought up, like, Day of Day of the Dead for a second and stuff. Or earlier, you brought up the Day of the Dead. I would love to learn more about this from a cultural standpoint because it just fascinates me when a species means so much to a people. And I would love to see these butterflies from their eyes. So could you maybe tell us a little bit more about that and how has that influenced the conservation of monarchs in the area?
[00:46:44] Speaker B: There is a very close cultural and traditional connection of the monarchs with Mexico. There are records indicating that in the Prehispanic, Mexico already considered not only the monarchs, but other butterflies as an icon that it was representing, had a spiritual symbol for them. For instance, the Aztecs used to consider the butterflies the souls of those warriors who died in battle.
And close to the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve, for instance, the Purepechas, they used to see or consider a white butterfly or the White butterflies in general, the souls of those who departed. So it's. It has been very symbolic for them as the colonization of Mexico happened. And there was this mix between the beliefs of the pre Hispanic Mexico and the Spaniards and the religion. There was this kind of mix of those traditions and beliefs. What is fascinating is that, that the monarch butterfly arrives in Mexico sometimes even exactly during the Day of the Dead, the celebration of the Day of the Dead in Mexico.
So that's how people having those beliefs of the butterflies being connected and representing the souls of the dead.
These tell stories about the monarchs being the souls of their beloved ones coming and visited them during the Day of the Dead start just spreading around.
I remember just being a child hearing my uncles and my aunts talking about the monarchs and the souls coming and visiting because we were just right there in Michaan. Right. So.
So it has been fascinating how the monarch has placed its self as. I don't know if it is just something happened or you know, it's an amazing coincidence that they just arrive at the same time. So they start becoming a very significant for the culture in Mexico and then they start being integrated into the.
The altars, the day of the date altars. And being part of that culture, people start dressing as monarchs during the Day of the Dead. One thing that is really important is for instance the heavy presence of marigold during that time. So it's another source of nectar for monarchs. So I would say my goals are in the cemeteries in Mexico in the Michoacan area during those days. So the monarchs were also attracted to that.
So it's very meaningful for the traditions in Mexico. It's part of it.
And the first thing some, some people say, and we know, the scientists, the scientific community know, knows that potentially the first thing that can disappear is the migration of the monarch. If we continue to see these heavy declines.
We cannot take that as something very simple or lightly. We cannot take it lightly. I mean, the migration disappearing, the migration or extinction of the migration is not only going to affect the dynamic of the ecosystems, but we're talking about the extinction of hundreds of years of traditions with some tribal groups in Mexico.
And that cannot be taken lightly. Once more, I'm trying to make sure that I can talk about it more and more. Because now that we're going through all these changes of equity and justice and inclusion in our country, it is important that we all are aware that the activities and the decisions that we make in this country can affect other tribes outside of our country and Mexico.
So it's Huge. This is a very important and massive topic. So it is really important to make people aware of the significance of the monarch butterfly, not only for our ecosystems once more, but also for traditions and culture for some Native American tribes.
[00:52:13] Speaker A: I mean, and it's fantastic that because, like I said, I. I read multiple of your articles and just bringing this very important cultural tradition to light, that not only is just from a scientific side, which I know a lot of us biologists can have, look at everything from that lens, but it's more than that. It's more than pollinator surfaces. It is more than just keeping biodiversity alive. It is also this very important cultural phenomenon as well. Like, I can't imagine if that was one of my core beliefs, and I lost that because we as people couldn't keep this one species alive. You know, like, what would that mean to somebody?
Yeah. So I'm really glad that we have the opportunity to talk about it. And just out of curiosity, have there been, I don't know, like a wave or a concerted effort to bring more of those local voices out to talk about what butterflies mean to them? Because we all hear about the scientific side. I feel like we're really getting the word out now, like, we need to protect monarchs. But what about that? Have you seen more of an effort to get local voices out there talking about what it means to them?
[00:53:38] Speaker B: Now that the proposed rule was published by Fish and Wildlife Service, we had a really good coverage in Mexico.
Being fortunate to be bilingual did allow us to reach out to Mexico and have also some interviews. And I was able to hear some of the local people talking about the relevance of the migration for their culture.
But I think their main concern at this point, Brooke, is related to climate change.
I could hear them talking about climate change heavily and asking the US to collaborate with them, with the government of Mexico as well, to make sure that we all work together to ensure that we can have a good outcome for the monarch butterflies.
But that's a really good point. And we should make sure that the local people are able to have a voice and talk more about how important it is for them.
Yeah, yeah. The monarch. And for their traditions and culture, or all traditions. I should include myself there.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah, you're from there.
That's one of the main reasons why I was so excited to talk to you when actually National Wildlife Federation reached out to me for this interview opportunity and I was like, please let me talk to Rebecca. Course. Like, I'm sure there's so many incredible monarch scientists, but this is your culture. I want to talk to you.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: Thank you.
Thank you. Yeah.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Yes. And just keep me posted on that idea of raising local voices, because that is something I'm extremely passionate about and some of the big projects that I want to be working on in the future.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:55:45] Speaker A: Let's talk offline. Absolutely.
Yes. Okay. Okay, Moving on. We got to keep this awesome conversation going. I think Joplin wants to come say hi.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: Hi.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: She's making her video appearance right now.
But anyway, so this question actually came from the rewadology community and it is a great launching pad for the big news going on right now.
[00:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: And Justin asked, how do you think the new proposal to list the Monarch on the ESA will impact conservation activities for monarchs in North America? So, yes. Could you give us some backstory how this. To me, it almost seemed out of the blue like the US Fish and Wildlife Service made this big announcement that monarchs might go on the list as threatened. Could you talk more about this? How did this happen?
Why is this finally on the radar now and what would happen if it did get approved and accepted?
[00:56:48] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So it's been now 10 years since the Monarch was petitioned to be listed as threatened. Ten years. Ten years. That's a lot of service received that petition.
So that's another long story.
Yeah, that very same year. And once more, this is not about negative comment, but it's also about how long it takes for the Service to come up with a decision. In this case, I would say because the lack of information that we had and because also there was an effort coping that in a few years we could just make the difference without listing the species and start boosting conservation efforts. There is a long process where there is what it's called the Species Status Assessment, which is based on the best available scientific and commercial information.
The Fish and Wildlife Service goes through that process. They have a group of experts creating this assessment.
And after that assessment back in.
Good lord, was it in 2020, they.
The service indicated that indeed the Monarch required further protection.
However, its listing was warranted because other species were in a more dire situation than the Monarch. So imagine that as well. I mean, the Monarch is struggling, but we have to wait to make the decisions and release proposed rules because there are other species that are more urgent.
So that is just telling us in which situation we are. In the US when it comes to the conservation of a species, there are other species that are struggling even more.
So we had to wait another four years for this decision to come out. There was an update of that species status assessment to determine if still the Monarch needed further protection or not. So after that update, the Fish and Wildlife Service decided to propose. At this point we are just facing a proposed rule. So it's not a final decision where Fish and Wildlife Service is indicating that yes indeed, the Monarch should be protected as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act.
What is the meaning of this? We're going through a 90 day period of comments where the public, the scientific community, farmers, ranchers, politicians, anyone can submit their comments and opinions to the Service to either support worked or not what they released as the proposed rules. The proposed rules are under this section 4D rule of the Endangered Species Act. And the beauty of those rules is that because the listing would be as threatened, the Service can work on tailored conservation actions and rules for the Monarch.
So the Service came up with a list of conservation actions rules that they would like to set in place and they are asking the public, the community in general to comment on that, what they think and if they can provide more information to support those proposed rules.
So that's where we are.
After this 90 day period of comments, the Service will review and analyze all those that information that they will receive. And they have until December of this year to finalize and conclude if they will be listing the Monarch and what the rules would be. But at that point they can also decide that they are not least in the monarch. So these 90 days are extremely important for the Monarch because that's when we're going to decide what its fate would be.
We're encouraging the scientific community especially to submit comments and provide more information that can support those rules that the services is deciding to set in place.
[01:02:03] Speaker A: Great. Okay. Yeah, so thanks so much for that elaboration of what is going on. So I guess what are the pros and cons both ways? So if they do get listed, that means that they would be under the protection of the federal government, not state level. So that means that the federal government is going to come in and monitor and help states bring back the Monarch. I mean that comes with its, you know, plus and minuses just as well as the other way around. So what are the pros and cons? If we could maybe do a little bit of Devil's advocate both ways, what would happen if they do get listed and then what would happen if they don't get listed?
[01:02:47] Speaker B: Okay, if, if it gets listed, there are many benefits because I mean the Endangered Species act is one of the most important conservation law of the United States and it has proven over and over again that it's, it has helped to recover species in the past.
So there are great benefits if the Monarch is protected under the Endangered Species act. And it will allow us to have better and greater coordination to work with federal agencies, state agencies, the scientific community. There will be more resources to do the work. We will have guidance and metrics that will allow us to know in which direction we should be going and what kind of work we should be doing in order to recover the species.
Those are the benefits that we could face. And of course, those Taylor rules that will be so specific to the needs of the monarch as a species, it couldn't be more species focused than that.
So there are great benefits. If that happens, so many people get concerned about it, what's going to happen?
Is it going to be something that's going to affect us? I don't think so. I think that's something that will benefit the species and will benefit us as well.
If the Monarch is not listed, I can tell you that we will continue working on conservation efforts whether it is listed or not, because it is clear for all of us that the Monarch, and once more our native habitats and other species require for care. And we need to make sure that we preserve that for future generations. We will continue working on conservation efforts for the Monarch and many other pollinators, which is the other really cool part of this. The Monarch is an umbrella species. The Monarch has indicated it's a great indicator of what other native pollinators are going through. And we know that it's not only the Monarch butterfly declining, but many other native pollinators that are crucial as well for fruit production. We go back to that and we need to conserve them so we will not stop our conservation efforts.
[01:05:36] Speaker A: That's so exciting. Yes. Our Monarchs have their own army backing them up.
[01:05:42] Speaker B: Yes.
Yeah.
[01:05:44] Speaker A: And so then looking to the future, then, what key factors have you and your team identified as the things that need to be done to restore Monarch populations?
[01:05:58] Speaker B: Well, definitely at the top of the list, we see habitat restoration.
Not only the conservation of habitat, the preservation of habitat, but restoring habitat itself and increasing habitat connectivity. That's something that is really important.
We are aware that because of the era where we live, talking about restoring native habitat itself at a larger scale, it's complex because we.
I mean, human populations are growing and we need more space to live. But it's a matter to start learning to coexist and having green spaces, native spaces mimicking what the native habitat system are in between.
So using urban and suburban areas to increase those native habitats, it's going to be crucial in the Future.
So at the National Wildlife Federation is something that we have focused for many years and we would like to continue focusing on that and boosting the creation of green spaces.
Gardens at home with native plants which are of great, great help, but also ensuring that also urban spaces, the cities start planning and thinking of creating and mimicking native habitats in larger spaces like vacant lots and their parks and their green belts, et cetera. So that's at the top of the list any of the conservation efforts that in general other organizations and ourselves have been working on. Now we have a better understanding that we need to start being more dynamic because of climate change.
We need to think ahead in the future and how climate change is affecting our conservation efforts to ensure that as we work on planning on any strategies to conserve the Monarch, we need to think in a more dynamic way and see how climate change predict how climate change will be affecting those efforts in the future. Here we start talking about climate adaptation strategies, integrating climate adaptation strategies into our conservation efforts.
It it's something that everyone at this point should be doing.
[01:08:45] Speaker A: And speaking of everyone, for those of us who happen to be in the migration pathway and we want to help these monarchs along their life cycle, what can we do as individuals to help with the conservation of Monarch butterflies?
[01:09:01] Speaker B: Let's be aware for actions how our daily lives are affecting climate change. I think that's at the top of the list. We need to make sure that we reduce our carbon footprint. For instance, I would ask people to avoid the use of pesticides. There's no need for us to use so much or so many pesticides, especially at home.
There are other grain options that we could use if it is necessary. But pesticides is just affecting not only the monarchs and other pollinators, but also ourselves and also turn your lawn into a native habitat. It's beautiful. It's pretty cold. You will not only see monarchs, but you will see many other urban wildlife visiting your yard. And it will also create this amazing beautiful microclimate that it might not be enough to battle climate change in your city, but it's going to help to battle climate change at your home. So that could be things that we could do as well. Advocating for new laws that can help us to fight, set rules in place to conserve other species, but also to bring funds are really important like Recovering American Wildlife Act.
We have also the Monarch act that is advocating for bringing also more funds to do and implement the conservation strategies for the Monarch in the west and include tribal communities in these efforts as well.
There is another pretty cool program which is called the Pollinator Friendly Plant Labeling act that we are trained also to advocate for. And it is about ensuring that nurseries start growing plants free of pesticides which are systemic. And once they get into the plant, they will stay there. And then once we plant those in our gardens will affect any wildlife. So there are many things that we could do at home. And all of us, if we do a cumulative effect, each one of us contributing to that, it'll be a huge cumulative effect that we can, we can have.
[01:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would also love to plug a previous episode that I did on the show. So I interviewed the former founder and CEO of Garden for Wildlife, which is actually underneath the National Wildlife Federation, Shabir Ali. He was on the show and he did a fantastic job. And so everybody, that is another thing that you can do. If you're interested in planting a native garden garden in your yard, you could put in your zip code. I, I know that they're growing slowly but surely in different states across the United States. Put in your zip code, see what flowers are native to you. And then you could even like design your own beautiful landscaped.
[01:12:31] Speaker B: Right.
[01:12:31] Speaker A: Native plant garden. And that's also attached to nwf, which is really cool.
[01:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:37] Speaker A: So, yeah, I will make sure that that episode is in the show notes too, if you all want to hear that fantastic episode with Shover.
[01:12:45] Speaker B: Great.
[01:12:45] Speaker A: And the fact that you're all part of the same little ecosystem.
[01:12:49] Speaker B: Right, right, right. And yeah. And then other sources of information for plants. I mean now with Internet, it's just massive. We also have the USDA plant database, which is even like more detail as well. If people are like super passionate, they want to have like a very diverse garden, etc. That are. There is more information there about native plants. The most important part is to make sure that we use locally adapted plants, which is what we call the native plants. And for people to be aware, sometimes we have a similar species or the same species in the Midwest and then like super close to Texas. Right. All the way to the Southwest. Southeast.
But that doesn't mean that it's the same individual.
That species evolves to adapt to the conditions of that species, the specific area. So it is really important as well that we continue to buy locally adapted plants by local. Sometimes I see people like, oh, I'll send you seeds from Texas on the way to New York. I'm like, no, please, no. Because that's what you're just going to be very disappointed. Those plants are not going to make it. And then we're just Wasting the seeds. So let's be aware of that as well. That's why we advocate so much for native species too. So that's. Yeah.
[01:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I could not agree more with that. It's just, so, it's just great how all of this is just connecting together. How, you know, this one action could really help with the future. And I feel like we're in the future right now, you know, like some big decisions are happening. And I would love to get you back on when there's been an update in any way so that you can inform me, inform all of us, you know, what was decided, why was it decided and what are the next steps either way. Because I know that you will be. You will definitely be one of the first to know. And so if somebody would like to follow you, I know you just gave a ton of resources, but outside of those, like follow your work, follow NWF's work, especially as it relates to the monarch butterflies. What is the best way for somebody to do that?
[01:15:22] Speaker B: We have a, a repository site, website at the National Wildlife Federation, which is called Monarchs. Let me check really quick for you so I can tell you exactly how. What's the. The name of this site? It's monarchs.nwf.org and that's a website where that will direct you to many different places of the National Wildlife Federation with different information about the work that we are doing around the Monarch. We have a science corner there. We have the latest news that are the press releases in English and Spanish that. I appreciate that you went through those. Thank you. Because it tells you the story of what's been happening in the last years with the population sizes of the Monarch and how the National Wildlife Federation has been informing the public about it. We have a list of the policies as well that we are advocating for and that are related to the Monarch. I didn't mention, for instance, which are also really important, they act for grasslands.
We're working on the conservation of grasslands as well, which is also super important ecosystem for the Monarchs. And the farm bill, it's there as well.
So please visit that area. And then how can I help monarchs? And that's pretty cool because then we talk about monarchs and milk with fats. We have another pretty cool national and actually it's a trinational program. It's the mayor's Monarch pledge and that helps the communities to engage in monarch conservation efforts and implement them in a year. And we have had at a time over 600 cities engage in that program too. So creating and certifying gardens.
So we have tips, tools and videos as well. We have the same information in Spanish. It's called Jardin para la Vida Silvestre and the link is there.
We are also making sure that we can outreach to our Hispanic communities here in the US and providing the information that they require to also contribute to the conservation of the Monarch and many other pollinator species.
[01:17:58] Speaker A: Amazing talk about a resource. I will have all of that in the Show Notes everybody. So if you're driving or listening to this, you're like, wait, what was that website? Just go to rewadology.com in the show notes of this episode and I will make sure everything is listed there for you all in one beautiful place. But Rebecca, you are incredible. I am so honored and so grateful to be sitting down with you in this historical moment in time with a very important North American species. Not just American or Mexican or Canadian North American species. And so thank you for sharing your knowledge with me and everybody listening and please keep us updated. I would love to have you back on as soon as there's any more information to share with everybody. So again, thank you.
[01:18:44] Speaker B: Thank you Brooke. It was great chatting with you and thank you for this opportunity and elevating the issues that we are facing now once more, not only with the Monarch, but many other pollinators. So thank you so much and yeah, wishing you the best with your show. I think it's a very cool one.
[01:19:07] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
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