Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to re-weld ology. Have you ever wondered how a species gains protection or how any of the other legal mumbo jumbo happens in conservation? Well, I've asked myself this several times and so I reached out to my really great friend Haley Hawkins to learn more hailing works for the endangered species coalition and works with the public and political leaders to put conservation into legal action. We dive deep into the process of listing a species and discuss next steps for reducing wolves into Colorado. She also opens up about her battle with mental health struggles and gives her strategies for how she's currently coping with what she deals with on a day-to-day basis. This episode was recorded in December of 2020. So some things have changed slightly or have updated since then, but overall, the content is great and very valid and explains how Congress works in conservation and vice versa.
Speaker 1 00:01:05 Little side note here since this episode is a little bit more on the political side. I want everyone to keep an open mind as the viewpoint is brought up. That doesn't exactly align with your beliefs. It is totally okay. This show is made for chatting about different ideas and sometimes controversial topics. We need more open forums to have open and honest conversations about these types of things. And that is what rewild ology is all about. We drank lots of wine and had a blast recording his episode for you all. Don't forget to let me know what you think about this episode by hitting me
[email protected] and subscribe and rate review on your favorite streaming app, whatever you like to do. I love the love. And so now onto the show with Hayley. Well, thanks Hayley. So excited. You're with me today. So phone, we got our one just hanging out here doing happy hour.
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Um, so to start to really let the listeners know who you are, where did you come from? What was your childhood like? Ooh, um, great question. And I, you know, before I start to tell you that I wanted to, to just say, you know, I'm, I'm just like Brooke, I live in Colorado and I'm coming to you from land that was traditionally owned by, um, the Cheyenne Arapaho and Ute nations. And what did definitely recognize that that land still, um, traditionally belongs to them and we're sitting on stolen land right now. Um, so where did I come from? I came from Mississippi, which was, um, traditional Navajo, and some other nations that I'm not remembering embarrassed, um, land and my childhood. Um, I think a lot of middle
Speaker 2 00:03:00 Age white girls will really relate to my story. It's pretty basic. I, um, I played outside a ton. I was kind of a tomboy. Um, I had a ton of stuff, animals, and they each had like names and I actually think I've just always been like really empathetic. I would feel super guilty if I like hung out with one more than the other. Or like if I decided I didn't like one as much kind of like if I just like broke my heart. Um, so that's weird. I also played outside with my friends all of the time. And, um, even though we were kind of in a downtown like neighborhood, a grid system, but I had girlfriends from all over in the neighborhood and we had bikes and we would just like ride around like, like a little, I mean, definitely not a gang, but like just like riding their bikes or rollerblades.
Speaker 2 00:03:48 And, um, we also had, I distinctly remember my childhood was these Azalea bushes and our backyard and they were, I don't know, seven feet tall or something. And they were really old. And, um, they were mature enough where you could meet as a small child. I could, you know, crawl inside of them at night. I would go in there enough where the, the floor inside the Bush was kind of, you know, everything kind of tied. And it was just like a hard dirt bottom. And one Bush was like my kitchen. And one Bush was like my bedroom. And, um, in spring, the blossoms would bloom like white and pink and purple. And there was this one that was my favorite. That was kind of like this coral pink color. Like I can't even, I don't even know what the name of it is, but it's like a, like a fuchsia fuchsia and coral, you know, like hooked up.
Speaker 2 00:04:43 It's like, it was just amazing. And, um, uh, so this is daily publishes. I mean, they like were the background of my childhood. And I also remember there was also like pecan trees in our yard. And so we just have a ton, a ton of leaves and pecans would just fall on the ground and people walking down our road would just stop and pick pecans. Cause there were so many of them and in the fall when we would rake the leaves, there'd be giant piles of leaves. And I would like literally lay in the piles with a Nutcracker in one hand. And I would just like kind of dig around and find a pecan and like crack it and then just, you know, eat it right there, like a little squirrel. And if y'all have ever had like raw pecans, but they kind of have this like really creamy, earthy taste and they leave a film in your mouth.
Speaker 2 00:05:32 And I don't know, it just at the time it was awesome. Although everyone smile, you get kinda like a bad one. And that one is like bitter and astringent and like, not good, but I just, I don't know. I think when I think of childhood that's, that's what I think of, of this Azalea bushes and the trees. And, um, I'm also from a port city in Northeastern, Mississippi, you can actually get to Gulf of Mexico through like a series of channels and dams, which is on my bucket list to do like go from my hometown to the Gulf of Mexico on a boat. Um, but so I spent, you know, my childhood driving boats when I was 11 and 12 with mostly adult supervision and, and um, just playing in the water, it's really, the water is like really silty. You know, you can't see your hand to foot underneath the surface. It's like that very like Southern, you know, silty water. And um, yeah, that was my, that was my childhood growing up.
Speaker 1 00:06:32 Sounds very nice. It sounds like you had a lot. It was pretty cool. It sounds like you were outdoors pretty much all the time. Like that was your playground was the outdoors.
Speaker 2 00:06:42 Yes, I think so. Would you say
Speaker 1 00:06:44 That that kind of was the groundwork for where you took your life next because you went into wildlife from your studies. So if you wouldn't mind sharing what you did go to school for and what, what was the reason why you studied what you did?
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Yeah, I, this is one of those hard questions for me. I think I kind of envy the people that are like, I have this amazing grand story of seeing a wildlife and, you know, going into it. And I feel like my story is kind of just like, you know, will Haley got all her stuffed animals. Um, and then I did hang out outside a lot and luckily I had parents, um, that really fostered my interests. Um, you know, my, my dad would talk to me about the environment a lot and I would ask them about animals and I had, I had a bunch of animal books and, um, but I have this one memory of when I was, I don't know, seven or eight or nine, I was driving in the car with my dad. And, you know, it's like, you're kind of just becoming aware of your surroundings and you're kind of just questioning things of, and we were right next to like a truck maybe was like a dump truck or something.
Speaker 2 00:07:59 And, um, out of the exhaust pipe, you know, by the cab, you know, all this black smoke was coming out. And I remember just being like, you know, what is that, what is that black smoke? My dad was like, yo, that's pollution. That's not good. You know, it's actually hurting the earth and we're feeling like anger and confusion and being like, why would we do that? You know? I mean that innocence of a child of just being like, that's a stupid idea. Right. And it is, but there's a lot of other things that are tangled up in that and why our society operates on fossil fuels. But I want to say like that, I feel like I remember that being kind of a pivotal moment of just realizing that, like we do things that are bad for the environment and it's almost like not enough people question why, or don't feel empowered to do something about.
Speaker 2 00:08:55 And I mean, at that age, I certainly didn't know that I had any agency that I could do anything about that, but it kind of got my wheels turning. And so, um, growing up, you know, I mean, small town, Mississippi, there weren't like a ton of opportunities to do stuff like that. Like I, you know, I think I did our first earth day at my high school. And, um, that maybe that was like my first taste of Oregon, a nonprofit organizing, um, of community mobilization. And he still didn't even know what it was at the time, but, um, in undergrad, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I, but I knew I was really good at talking, you know, in public speaking. So I just went into communications, like a lot of other white women. Um, and I found environmental science, like in my last two years of undergrad, decided to minor in it, out of, um, that was like really serendipitous.
Speaker 2 00:09:51 Um, and then I also had one of my, one of my best friends in undergrad got me into, um, doing some renewable energy organizing. Um, and so came up against a lot of different hurdles and, um, with the help of, you know, a tight knit group of friends and, and a community that was really open to receiving and accepting others, um, as we were, you know, like building this movement for renewable energy, um, yeah, I just started getting this, this experience and getting a taste for, um, civic engagement and, you know, I, I did eventually get burnt out. Um, like so many people do and I, I don't know it was working 30 to 40 hours a week and was a full-time student. And, you know, it was also like coping emotionally with being a young person in a culture that is inherently fairly unrealistic and unhealthy.
Speaker 2 00:10:49 And so I was binge drinking. I was, you know, dabbling in drug use. I, um, at first wasn't doing very good with my grades and then, you know, was lucky enough, not, not everybody are privileged enough to like find something. I was really passionate about, like the environment that kind of helped me like snap out of it and realize we, like, I have something I really care about that where I want to work toward. Um, but granted, I mean, emotionally, it was still really challenging. Um, so I got burnt out and I quit organizing. I quit working on environmental stuff after graduation for a couple years, although I was still kind of looking for jobs. Um, it's interesting. Uh, one thing that they don't tell you about with a communication degree is that you're really good at being like a hostess slash receptionist slash scheduling coordinator.
Speaker 2 00:11:42 And so in Mississippi, I kinda got like trapped in these, in those jobs, which green it, you know, um, I worked with some great people and made some friends doing that and it just wasn't what I wanted to do. So again, was, you know, struggling with self-worth, um, was struggling with my own sense of success and achievement. And I mean, and, you know, being in my early twenties and not being able to like accept myself and like what phase I was in life. And I feel like I'm kind of going on and on forever. But, um, eventually I had the privilege of going to graduate school. I had a lot of support from my family. I came to Boulder, Colorado when to Naropa university, which is, um, a Buddhist inspired private university that kind of backs up to see you. It's kind of like, you know, it's like this big and then sees like this because it's like, you don't even notice it's there.
Speaker 2 00:12:35 Um, but it's great. And I loved it. I, I, I would do it again if I could. I got my master's in environmental leadership and I learned a lot about myself and, um, I was able to tailor my program to, um, learning about wildlife and development's effect on wildlife. And I worked with local nonprofits and met biologist and, um, kind of started getting my toe in the door. And the reason I did that was because, you know, when I was doing renewable energy work, one of my motivators was, you know, I'm going to stop mountaintop removal, which is, you know, really prevalent in Appalachia and Kentucky and Virginia. And, you know, they wipe off these mountains off the face of the earth. And, uh, my motivated motivator was protecting habitat just cause like that's where my heart was. And that's, that's what, what I loved. And I thought, why not? Why not go to the source? So I started learning about wildlife and, um, graduated and got the job, what I have now, which is with the endangered species coalition. I'm like our, our person in the Southwest. And I just get to do a lot of cool stuff. I'm a pause. I've been talking for a long time. My mouth is dry.
Speaker 1 00:13:52 You get some wine. No, that's really good. I kind of want to reverse back a little bit because it sounds like you had some big personal transformations that happened while you were in grad school. And I think a lot of us have had some similar moments where we just like come into our own. Do you mind talking about that a little bit, kind of, what did you experience? What, what made Haley that I see now, before me, what did you experience during grad school that really took you down your path
Speaker 2 00:14:24 Girl? Um, that, I mean, I didn't like still experiencing that. I think I'm still coming into myself. I, I turned 30 a couple of years ago and like, that was like a really, I don't know. And it was like a really defining moment for me. I've lots of people have told me that, you know, your thirties are the best years of your life. And I only say that because, you know, grad school was a defining moment, but I mean, it was just the beginning. It was, you know, I was just planting the seeds. Um, and I mean, I'll say in grad school, um, at Naropa, we were privileged to take multiple, um, meditation classes. And, um, my cohort was really small. We actually only had four people in our entire cohort, like moving from class to class, um, both years. And I mean, that was spectacular.
Speaker 2 00:15:16 Those, those three women, it was, we were all women and we're all white. And so like, we, it was really easy for us to connect and come together. I think we had similar backgrounds and, um, and w were, they're still my best friends. Um, we still, we still talk like almost every day and, um, had like, wait, five years later, we graduated five years ago. So I mean the pivotal moment, I mean, I know I started paying attention to like how I actually felt and started learning how to like, track, like, you know, this isn't okay, this isn't normal. I, you know, I'm getting feedback from, you know, the outside world that I'm not okay with this. Like how can I, how can I work with myself to meet my own needs in this situation? I feel like I'm being a little abstract, but I think what I'm trying to get at is, I mean, dominant culture is really harsh, right?
Speaker 2 00:16:19 Like, you know, we work 40, 60 Jesus', 80 hours a week if you have the energy. And, um, I read something today that was talking about how, you know, when the 40 hour week was created, it was under the assumption that somebody like probably a woman would be at home doing everything else that would need to be done in the home. And like now, like everybody's working a 40 hour week and it's just, it's a lot. And I mean, some weeks I do not have the energy and I to do that and let alone there's people out there that work multiple jobs. And, um, that aren't as aren't as privileged as I am. And so, you know, just recognizing the hustle that it takes to, to live in a world, like we live in and think it in grad school, I was kind of given the permission, I think, to manifest what I like, what do I want my life to look like? Like, what am I best suited for? Um, I don't like sales, you know, I'm not suited for that. And I think, I don't know. I think I just kind of started the process of coming to terms with who I am and accepting myself. And that's still like a daily practice. Um, I still, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 00:17:33 I think that's a struggle that we all deal with, especially in our field when we're always battling against something. It feels like at all times. But, but to bring that back around, um, since you mentioned the endangered species coalition, so did you, is that where you came from after grad, after you graduated? Is, did you immediately go into that role or kind of just share the story of how you got into the role you're currently in?
Speaker 2 00:18:01 Yeah, I girl, I, I found the listing on idealist and applied for it and got it. Um, yeah, I mean, I don't feel like it's a really long story, although, I mean, I didn't get that job immediate this job immediately. It took, it took me a few months after graduation and I will tell you, those were like some of the scariest three months of my life and we weren't even in a pandemic. So my love and my empathy and concern goes out for those that are like looking for jobs right now, actually one of my housemates, she graduated undergrad, um, this summer and, you know, she had, she got a temporary job, but she's like working for, looking for work right now. And it's just, you know, I love you girl. Cause shit's hard. And like, you got this though.
Speaker 1 00:18:53 She's got it. She's going to crush it, whatever she's going in. For sure. Yes. Awesome. So what exactly do you do? So you have a very unique role in conservation. I've met a lot of people in this field and you're the only one that I know that does what you do. Yeah. You are. So if you want to kind of explain
Speaker 2 00:19:12 You do. Yeah. So I work in the people side. I say the people side of conservation, you know, one thing that I think that I really like is a lot of wildlife managers say, you know, we don't, you don't manage people or damn it have only had half a glass of wine. If you don't manage, you don't manage wildlife, you manage people. Um, and so I like to say I work on the people's side of conservation in terms of advocacy and policy. Um, so what big piece of my job is making sure the endangered species act remains strong, which actually it hasn't, the Trump administration has kind of fucked us, um, in a lot of different ways, but wildlife and conservation and public lands is just one of them. Um, so I do some lobbying. I do a lot of community engagement and activation. I'm like, you know, call your senators, sign.
Speaker 2 00:20:07 This petition, let's do this event. I do a lot of education. Um, I'm also getting to, into more like art as advocacy. Um, actually some really bad news gets your mind ready? Um, got it. There was actually in 2018, the Thanksgiving count of Monarch butterflies in the West was about 30,000, which is still down significantly from the numbers in the 1980s, which is like 4.5 million. So we're at like, like more than a 99% increase. Well, the Thanksgiving count this year, just two years later, um, they've counted about 2000. So we've seen like another dramatic, like two individuals. So we're seeing like another dramatic decline in monarchs in the West. And so I, my job is to say like, decision-makers, we have to do something about this and to like mobilize our communities to like, make it happen. So I'll drink on that one.
Speaker 1 00:21:10 Hmm. I'm gonna have to get a refill. Um, so on a day-to-day basis, what exactly is it that you do, especially from like more like the governmental side, because like me, I don't know anything about this. You have taught me pretty much everything. I know when it comes to how a species gets protection, how a piece of land gets protection. What exactly is that process? I just know the biology side of like, why they're important, but you know, how something gains protection. So if you wouldn't mind talking about that
Speaker 2 00:21:49 Yeah. Girl out. And that's why we make such a good team. Cause like, I, I want to know the biology. I want to be a scientist. I'll just vicariously be one through you. Um, so actually a really cool thing about the endangered species act, um, that not a lot of laws have is that it, um, it empowers citizens to like be a part of conservation. So when a species gets listed, typically somebody is petitioning that species. So like an organization, I mean an individual, if you have enough time and money to like do the research and gather the data and you can do it. Um, but typically somebody petitions a species. Um, actually the Monarch that we just mentioned is a really great example. Um, in 2014 there were petitioned to be listed. Um, and you know, a lot of time went by and that decision was never made.
Speaker 2 00:22:41 Um, despite a lot of evidence that was presented to the U S fish and wildlife services, which is the governing body over all of our endangered species, which is housed under the department of the interior. If we want to kind of draw those connections, um, they presented all this data, why they should be listed and the us fish and wildlife services, you know, six years later has yet to make a decision. And actually because of a court case, they are mandated to make a decision this month, December two, 2020, they're supposed to say like, yes, they're listed or no, they're not. Um, granted the Trump administration, you know, like we don't, we think it's going to be really bad news. And like, at least that's what we're projecting, just because of all the other terrible stuff he's already done and that the administration has already done.
Speaker 2 00:23:27 Um, but you know, considering this new dramatic decline in monarchs in the West, hopefully they will get listed because they really need protections. But it's kind of an example of how, how a species is listed. Someone petitions, it, they give a bunch of information to the U S fish and wildlife service, the U S fish and wildlife. You know, it looks through the information and eventually they'll say, yes, this species warrants listing, we're going to list them as either threatened or endangered or they'll say, no, they don't weren't listing. And unfortunately when they say no more often than not, it's, it's a politicized decision. Um, it's one, that's not based in science, but rather based in, you know, as the listing of the species going to affect some sort of industry like logging like oil and gas extraction, like the name, big agriculture, like, you know, any, any one of our big industries that are destroying our environment. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:27 Okay. Okay. So what an organization is asking the fish and wildlife service to do is to put a species underneath the endangered species act. Is that pretty much, what am I translating correctly?
Speaker 2 00:24:43 Yeah, I think so. And when, um, when you list a species, if you list them as endangered, that the definition of that is, is, um, at risk of becoming extinct. If you, if a species is listed as threatened, that means at risk of becoming endangered, if you kind of see those two, those two distinctions and when a species is listed, they get access to funding to research, to, um, protection. Like I said, from industries, from being incidentally killed, also the endangered species act provides mechanisms for private landowners to tap into so that, you know, they can kind of like say if an endangered species is found on their property, they can kind of like navigate that without having too many of their, um, private property rights infringed upon. And so actually the Ninja to be these act has been called one of the most, uh, excuse me, strongest environmental laws like in the entire world.
Speaker 2 00:25:39 So like that's super dope. However, there's politicians, um, like many of those in the Trump administration, like many in our Congress right now that want to weaken the act because they want to make it easier to extract resources. They want to, um, they want to have access to our public lands, to extract resources and all of these things make profit for very few people and actually harm the vast majority of Americans, whether that's through pollution, um, through the removal of public land access, which gives us, you know, recreation, physical and mental health, et cetera, um, and takes away the land's capacity to support biodiversity. And, you know, you, as, as a scientist, this is where your expertise comes in of like the importance of biodiversity, which, you know, leads to resiliency of communities, resiliency of human communities. It cleans our air filters. Our water provides a waste removal, reduces diseases like that. Like, you know, uh, the list of EcoServices that we need and that we rely upon, you know, just continue. And especially as like climate change, like, Oh, and like, we can just be talking about climate change mitigation and like, we need these large intact landscapes, um, for climate change mitigation or else we F
Speaker 1 00:26:58 Yes, for real. So how can, hopefully you can shed some light on this, how can a law that powerful be possibly to the detriment of itself? So what exactly is happening in government for something that powerful to be weakened? What exactly is going on?
Speaker 2 00:27:22 Such a good question, Brett. So over the last few years, the Trump administration has, um, created these regulatory changes pretty much like re-interpreting the endangered species act. Um, and so the first set of regulatory changes did a few different things. One was they allowed economic analysis to be taken into account when making listing decisions. Now that was not the case beforehand, uh, beforehand it says, you know, you can only consider the best available science and you know, no economic considerations now they're like, Ooh, you know, now they can say like, Oh, this species is gonna, if we list a species it's going to cost, so-and-so possibly somebody that lobbies for me that gives me a hundred thousand dollars in a super pact, you know, that helps me get reelected. I'm playing the part of a skeezy politician. Um, you know, if I list this, if we list the species that that industry is going to be affected, so we can't list it, you know, so that's super, super skeezy and sneaky.
Speaker 2 00:28:30 Um, another thing is if they completely ignored climate change, so you can no longer since these regulatory changes, you can no longer list a species or designate critical habitat for a species based solely on climate change and species species like that are under those examples might be like coral reefs, which are dying because it always soon acidification due to climate change or like polar bears, which are already listed. So don't worry about them. But just as an example, polar bears, because they're mostly endangered and are starving because of melting sea ice and having less access to food. Um, so that's, those are those examples of species that are listed due to due to mostly because of climate change. Um, and then they also weekend some of the consultation processes with us fish and wildlife. That again makes it easier for industries to like get permits, to do bad things.
Speaker 2 00:29:29 So that was some of the regulatory changes that happen. And then some other, like really challenging things to understand. And, you know, like, um, I luckily rely on our policy advisor is like amazing at the endangered species coalition to kind of translate this for me. But another group of regulatory changes they did is like the literally redefine the word habitat to, to only include like where the species currently exists, meaning that if a species has habitat, that can support them, but they're not currently like occupying it then, like, it doesn't count as habitat. Like some like, just like some bullshit like that, that just like,
Speaker 1 00:30:11 So any other regions that they've been extirpated from against their will normally from human induced reasons, those are no longer considered
Speaker 2 00:30:20 You can't designate critical habitat based on that. Yeah. Like it's yeah. So, so some like, like liquidy, loony, bullshit, you know, I mean just some shitty stuff. And I mean, you know, the Trump administration has, they've been blatantly terrible this whole time, and this is just another example of like the absurdity that is them, but, you know, let's cheers to the upcoming administration. We're watching you. You better be good because we ain't going to let up.
Speaker 1 00:30:51 So where does the American people come in this? So how did, how did that come to be? Did the American people have any voice of this happening or, or was it very confusing or because the way you just put it out, there was very black and white and I don't care what side anybody's on. I'm very neutral intentionally. I, the way you just presented that argument, most people would be like, duh, what, what are you talking about? So clearly there was something lost in translation. So what happened to allow that to happen? Because like I said, it doesn't sound like maybe the American people didn't know or something was twisted. So what happened
Speaker 2 00:31:38 In there? I mean, here's the thing in my, you know, I'm a young person, I have limited experience. I have like, I don't know, not quite a decade of non-profit experience, like have a little bit under my belt, but there's folks out there that have been doing this for 40 years, you know? So like I, so what, my, my point is like, this is my, this is my, for my experience. But like, well, I mean, the administration that's in power can kind of, when it comes to departmental decisions, like they can kind of do what they want. I don't mean that to sound disempowering. Um, I mean, where do I want to start? So it's actually, when I started non-profit organizing, I did not know. And, and maybe a lot of y'all don't know, I did not know that I could walk into my senator's office anytime I want, and like, request to meet with them and go talk to them.
Speaker 2 00:32:32 And like, you, like, you have come to senators meetings with me and like been amazing. Um, yeah, we've done those together, but I mean, I think the vast majority of them, yeah. I don't know that you can do that. And in fact, it's actually you're right. And obligation as a citizen to say like, Hey, congressperson, he's Senator, this is how I want you to represent me in Congress. I, and so that's really empowering and really important for all Americans to take part in. Um, I'll, I'll people, community members to take part in now, when it comes to administrative decisions, that's, um, I wouldn't say different, but maybe a little more challenging. So with these ones, regulatory changes, um, your initial question, which was like, how did this happen? There must've been something lost in translation. Nah, nothing was lost in translation. So when you, when they make these regulatory changes, they have to have public comment periods.
Speaker 2 00:33:28 And normally there's public comment periods are 30 days to 90 days, depending on how generous, um, that department wants to be. But, um, when they propose the initial regulation changes, you know, we had so many days of, of public comment period, our community. So organizations like mine, we got over 800,000 comments from individuals. So almost a million comments in opposition to these regulatory changes, um, which that's a shit ton just to put it in perspective for you. Um, and when they came out with the final regulations, they were in fact a little worse than they had originally proposed. And so, I mean, I don't think anything was lost in translation. I think that my perspective, I think that they had a public comment period because they had to, and that they didn't have an intention of listening to the American people. And I think that that points at the importance of our elected officials and how in the United States, we have a culture of not voting.
Speaker 2 00:34:39 I mean, oftentimes, you know, for presidential elections, I don't know, like 50 to 60% of people vote, but when it comes to like more local elections, I mean, you know, that that percentage plummets dramatically and, and, um, people voting, voting and meeting with your elected officials is like the number one best thing that you can do for the environment. And actually, you know, one good thing of the Trump administration is I think he's really incited that he's incited that participation of being like, Oh shit, no, it could get this bad. Nah, it definitely can. And it can get worse. Um, and you know, because of grassroots mobilizing because of, um, the engagement of people of color and, um, communities that are more often than not, not represented like voting in this last election, that's why we defeated Trump. And so, I mean, people need to keep doing that and every single election, because until we have people in that are willing to listen
Speaker 3 00:35:38 To their constituencies and protect the interests of future generations, like we're screwed, but we're at a bifurcation point where things could get better. And I think keeping the pressure on Biden is going to be so important. He could easily kind of slipped back into this complacent, democratic role that we've seen. The Democrats kind of be in like, I'm, I consider myself a Democrat and like, come on. Y'all like, we gotta step it up a little bit. I, I, you know, I think it's important to work across the aisle and people are dying because of COVID people are dying because of climate change. People in Flint don't have clean, still don't have clean water. I mean, I'm kinda tired of the compromise when people are dying and like Democrats, like let's step it up. And that starts with people voting and meeting with their representatives. Girl
Speaker 1 00:36:32 Is it's a drink of wine. I'm going to ask you my next question. So I think one of the big disconnects, just me personally, um, and also just knowing, so I know that before we, we logged on, we chatted about how hard it is sometimes with how much people are working now. And we are all wrapped up in our own little bubble because our lives are busy as fuck right now. I mean, even during COVID, there's so much going on, it's almost like the world is going to freaking in. There's like a social media, just like almost being thrown down our throats to the point where people are disconnecting or people are like over connecting and no one knows what's real or what's true. So what are some of the best resources that you know of for people to get just honest information so that they know what's going on? So I've, I guarantee you so many people did not know about what the endangered species act was, what happened to it, or to even know there was a comment period to put something out there like that might just be so far from most people's reality because unless you're in our field, I mean, who else knew about it? So where are some of the reputable places that people can go to just keep up on these things or know what's going on and how they can make their voice be heard?
Speaker 3 00:38:05 That's a tough one. Honestly. I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is find like a community or an organization that you trust. And I mean, you know, subscribe to their emails. Um, I want to say, you know, wildlife and endangered species and non-human beings. Like, I, I feel like it's actually a little indicative of my privilege, but I, I, where my heart is
Speaker 2 00:38:36 And that's where, what I have chosen to pursue as like my life's mission and my career. Um, there are many, many equally as worthy and important causes out there, whether we're talking about, um, immigration, um, uh, prison reform. I mean, why can I environmental justice? I mean, there, there are so many really important causes out there. And so I like where my mind goes is like fine. Find an organization you trust and form a relationship with them, follow their emails, um, get to know them and, and granted we can all have, you know, you can be passionate about more than one issue, but I mean, like you just said, we're busy, dude. I mean, I've chosen advocacy to be my career. Cause I, I mean, I'm one of those people that I don't have energy at the end of the day to like also do other stuff a lot of the time, like outside of like, I'm dude, I'm lucky if I exercise this day, like I got, I got two doggos that like, are my babies?
Speaker 2 00:39:45 Like, I am like I embraced the dog mom mentality. Like, you know, I have to take care of them. I have friendships I need to maintain. And I I'm one of those people, others are different that I just, I don't have the energy to like work my 40 hours and exercise and eat right. And cook my food and make sure my dog babies are happy and healthy and maintain my friendships and my relationship with my family. And, um, but some people out there like our psych to volunteer and those are the people that I want to work with. Um, but like I said, there's lots of worthy causes that are important that need bodies to like encompass the movement. Um, so yeah, finding an organization you trust. Um, I do think, I think that there's media outlets out there that, um, one can get, you know, get information from, but I'm, you know, I'm not the best person. Like, you know, we all need to be careful about fake news, but I'm not, I don't want to sit here and name them for you because honestly, like I, Ugh, I'm hesitating to say this, but dude, I like, I'm busy, I'm working on a lot of different things. You know, those little things that they put on horses to like keep them on their tracks. They don't get distracted. Like sometimes I have to put those on the blinders. Yep. Yep. Oh, hi. Look, one of my doggies just came.
Speaker 2 00:41:07 Sometimes I have to put those blinders on and just like, you know, I put my head down and do my work. And so I rely on like my coworkers and my relationships to like feed me important information that I need to know that week. Um, because like I said, I have to kind of create boundaries cause my energy, you know, I only have so much energy, um, and breast is, is vital and you know, hopefully we'll talk a little more, um, kind of like on a rebellious act in our society. And so,
Speaker 1 00:41:39 So I guess yeah, kind of on that, um, with the next administration or with more people, your talk is so cute. This is Kane Kane.
Speaker 2 00:41:50 I mean, he's a big rescue dog D and he is just so sweet and patient and once snuggles and you can just kind of like, Oh,
Speaker 1 00:41:57 I'm sure he loves the mountains. He looks big
Speaker 2 00:41:59 And fluffy. Yes,
Speaker 1 00:42:03 No is his friend. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:42:05 Sweetie. Bye. Oh, that's great. Um, so
Speaker 1 00:42:10 Kind of on that note,
Speaker 2 00:42:14 Can,
Speaker 1 00:42:15 Everything that you just mentioned happened to the major's PC deck, could that be turned over in some way, shape or form? Could it be brought up by the people? Is that the administration? So how can the powers that be put the power back into the endangered species act?
Speaker 2 00:42:31 Yes. So Senator Udall and congressmen, Grehalva both in the Senate and the house introduced the protect America's wildlife and fish and need act. And the acronym is the pot and thin act. Isn't that adorable? There's like somebody's job out there to just like create these really cute acronyms for legislation. So yeah, I know. Right. So the pond finance actually like it's one of the shortest bills in history, it's like two sentences and it just says like we revoke the Trump administration regulation changes as they relate to the endangered species act or something like that. Um, so yes, we can pretty much just through Congress, like revoke those, I mean, granted, um, and you know, January 24th, it, the Congress will change again. And so that legislation would have to be re introduced because it's like the next Congress. Um, so that could happen also, you know, this is something I'm less familiar with, but Biden president elect Biden could do like a, you know, like an executive order reverse style thing. I'm pretty sure that's where I'm less confident, um, that I know the answer to that, but yes, there are definitely ways also rural and other thing I know you're gonna be interested in is, um, you know, the Trump administration delisted walls, like federally, like a month ago and that's going to become effective on January 4th, wolves will no longer have federal protected protections. So the biting administration could also rewind that shit because that's some, you know, baby back bullshit too. Um, so yes, all this can be undone.
Speaker 1 00:44:18 Awesome. Okay. That's good. And I just love that you brought up wolves because that's actually where I was taking this conversation next. So big things in Colorado are going on right now. Massive things. The things we spoke to our Congress, people about that we talked about, you took me to, that was really amazing. It almost feels good because like our work, we actually saw come to light, it got on the ballot and it's approved reintroduction of wolves into Colorado is a thing. Now, now comes the work now comes, the questions now comes, what does this actually mean? So if you wouldn't mind explaining that. So now that if you actually do one of my explaining the whole process, because people are probably going to listen to this that have no idea what we're talking about. So why was wolves put on the ballot? What was decided and where do we go from now?
Speaker 2 00:45:15 All right. Um, so I mean like this process started like decades ago with, um, some really committed folks. Um, so I want to say the success of this year's election, um, and the passage of one 14, the proposition to reintroduce wolves to Colorado, um, stood on the backs of, you know, a couple of decades of work here in Colorado. Um, so definitely want to acknowledge those folks that have just been doing work for so long. Um, I have been in this position and involved in that Colorado Wolf work since like 2016. Um, and let's see, the reason it came about was, um, essentially because I mean, Colorado is prime habitat for wolves and, you know, we have wolves in the Northern Rockies of Canada, you know, extending down to Montana and Wyoming and, you know, they're reintroduced into Idaho around, around the same time they were, um, reintroduced into Yellowstone.
Speaker 2 00:46:21 And then we also have wolves in the Southern Rockies. We have Mexican gray wolves, which very few people actually know about it. If you've never heard of a Mexican gray Wolf, it's, you know, one of the most endangered subspecies of wolves in the of gray wolves in the world. I mean, this is, this is something you should know about, um, especially if you love wildlife. Um, so we have those in the Southern Rockies. And so Colorado is kind of represented this like dark, like black hole of, of worthlessness. Um, despite the fact that there's prime habitat and the last Wolf pack in Colorado, um, w th there hasn't been a Wolf pack in Colorado, look at established pack since like 1945, um, where they were, they were exterminated by white settlers as they were coming in and stealing indigenous land and beginning to mine and, you know, sand Creek massacre and a bunch of other terrible stuff is these are all things that one should Google if they don't know about them.
Speaker 2 00:47:18 And they don't know about that Colorado history. So important. I mean, at the same time that we're disrespecting like, uh, the lives of indigenous people were disrespecting the lives of, of the native wildlife and habitat that are so essential to everything, but like the universe and everything. Um, so wait, where was I going with this? Got a little off check. Wait. Okay. So 1945, no wolves. We exterminated them. White settlers did a lot of bad stuff. So fast forward, um, you know, like to the 2000 tens, um, the color parks and wildlife commission kind of signed this letter and they were like, we will, we will never reintroduced wolves to Colorado. We don't like them. Um, and so that pretty much kind of like gave advocates, like my organization kind of an ultimatum, a little bit of like, okay, well, if the department, the state department, isn't going to reintroduce wolves and clearly the feds, the federal us fish and wildlife services, they're not going to reintroduce wolves.
Speaker 2 00:48:29 So like, by golly, it's up to us, the citizens, like the science says, wolves are good for ecosystems. The science says that wolves mitigate climate change. They, um, move on gullets, uh, protect vegetation. And actually, um, I mean, create like a trophic cascade. I'm sure you've seen, seen that video from Yellowstone. It's beautiful, you know, like makes you cry and stuff. It's, it's amazing. Um, so we need, we need walls in Colorado. Like there's something missing here. Um, so when we took it to the streets, the, the state legislature wasn't going to do it, the, the, um, state agency wasn't going to do it, the fed was feds. Weren't going to do it. And so the citizens did it. We had to get like over 200,000 signatures of Colorado citizens, Colorado registered, registered voters. We did it, you know, as a community and the secretary of state confirmed that all those signatures were valid.
Speaker 2 00:49:29 We got on the ballot this November at the beginning of November, it passed and I'll tell ya, it was kind of close. Um, it was approved by 60,000 votes. There were a few reasons for that one, like COVID, COVID to put a monkey wrench in like, absolutely everything, right. This include ed. Um, and so we kind of think maybe there was some lower turnout for the PR for the initiative, because of, COVID also some like 11th hour opposition funding. So like Safari club who, you know, trophy hunts, Cecil, the lion and drafts, which, and like all these other amazing animals, like they put a lot of funding against it as did the Rocky mountain elk foundation, which I don't, I guess they don't understand that wolves make elk healthier. I don't get it. Yeah. That's actually email me. Yeah. Because I'd love to see more information on that. Yeah, absolutely. Like, why not? Like, I mean, I don't know, um, and some other organizations, so either way, whatever the ballot passed it, it passed above the, you know, the recount standard, which if it, anyway, I'm getting too much in the weeds, but it passed bitches. And only real quick, sorry, side. I love, I'm really embracing the word bitches, that word a little for like a very long time, like I'm taking it. All right. <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:51:05 um, so to answer your question now, what, what happens next is that the proposition that passed requires Colorado parks and wildlife to do like stakeholder meetings, to make sure that we're considering the folks on the Western slope where wolves would be in re-introduced, like are being considered in the, in the management and recovery. Um, so they're going to create, like, they're going to have stakeholder meetings and public comment. They're also going to have like working groups that are going to create the management plans and create like, you know, the re-enter, uh, the reintroduction plan. We're hoping to have paws on the ground by 2023, if not sooner. Um, and I mean, yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, that's kind of what's happening in my organization. Like me, you know, like literally what I'm going to be doing for the next couple of years is, um, advocating to the, to the departments of like, you know, let's not, we can't legally manage wolves. And in fact, the science says that when you legally manage wolves, it is counterproductive and can actually create like more depredation of livestock or production of livestock. Um, we're also going to be doing a ton of stuff. Um,
Speaker 1 00:52:22 No, that's awesome. So how would, um, yes, we'll file algae. I, this is about you, I'm not going to go on a tangent on that, but cause that does actually make total sense. You just have to in the pack, blah, blah, blah, but we're going to continue on. Um, so how would the re-introduction of Colorado differ than the re-introduction to like Wyoming and Idaho? I know it was a really Rocky, um, and hopefully going to avoid all of those issues that happened in those States. Hopefully is there a way to avoid kind of some of the lashback that happened
Speaker 2 00:53:00 In those States? Hm. I mean, I hope so. I think that one place that those States really struggled and maybe, um, something that we could do better here in Colorado is actually budgeting for public education. And I, I mean, I, you know, I'll go out on a limb and say, I don't think that they did that enough in the Northern States, um, educating about,
Speaker 3 00:53:28 You know, wolves are not dangerous.
Speaker 2 00:53:31 I'm in Yellowstone. You know, I'm not going to like make up a bunch of numbers and facts because I don't have them at the tip of my fingers, but I mean like tens of thousands of people visit Yellowstone every year and they go hiking and they can't, there has not been one, you know, a Wolf is not injured.
Speaker 3 00:53:47 Like at all
Speaker 2 00:53:49 That I know of in Yellowstone, I mean, kind of the same thing with the great Lake States.
Speaker 3 00:53:53 Um, the great Lake
Speaker 2 00:53:55 States are in certain parts are even more densely populated than Colorado. And again, there has not been any,
Speaker 3 00:54:03 Um, incidences of like human Wolf conflict.
Speaker 2 00:54:10 Um, so in Colorado, I mean the Western slope is pretty sparsely populated. Um, there's a ton of public land. There's almost 17,000 acres of public lands. Um, and granted there is public grazing of livestock on our public lands in the Western slope in Colorado. Um, the, these public grazing allotments are typically like many generations old.
Speaker 3 00:54:36 Typically those folks pay
Speaker 2 00:54:39 Very little like rents to graze on our public lands and, and grit, like having wolves will change their life and will change
Speaker 3 00:54:50 There. Um, you know, the way that
Speaker 2 00:54:53 They do things, but I believe it is the responsibility of our agencies to like educate, provide resources, um, so, and provide non-lethal coexistence measures, um, for them. So w things. So when I say non-lethal kojic assistance measures, I mean like things that scare wolves away from their cows, so they won't haunt them. So like, um, special flags that you put on the fences and like, you kind of have to move the flags around because wolves are smart. Like, come on, like they're going to get used to 'em. So there's certain things that you have to do. And, um, also like automatic lights and then actually like having human presence around the cows, this is a thing people don't know, like, like, yo, they take those cows and they like put them out in the middle of the nowhere and they just like, leave him there
Speaker 3 00:55:42 For like five months with like nobody
Speaker 2 00:55:44 Out there with them. So like, yeah, a bear is gonna eat some like, yeah, Cougar is going to eat some like, would you rather have someone hand you a hamburger or like go run a mile for your food? I mean, this is kind of common sense. So I think my point is
Speaker 3 00:56:03 There's things
Speaker 2 00:56:04 That need to be done. We need to educate people. We need to provide resources. Um, and
Speaker 3 00:56:10 Yeah, I see us
Speaker 2 00:56:10 Doing that in Colorado and ideally doing that better than we did in Idaho and Montana and Wyoming. And granted, the last thing I'll say here is those are both, um, all three of those States are very conservatively. And I think here in Colorado, you know, we have governor Polis and his husband, um, first gentlemen, Marlin rays, and they were like dope as fuck. They are super huge advocates. I've been working with both of them for years. And I can't, I only see it being done better here than it was done in those other States. So governor Polis and first gentlemen, Marlin res,
Speaker 1 00:56:51 I'm looking at you, it's all on your shoulders. No, that's really good. I'm really glad you brought that up because that, um, that really gives a lot of perspective. Me having studied African brig, big predators for years and seeing the incredible amounts of mitigation measures that have been developed. And those, I mean, they live with freaking lions, like, come on, like you eat people, right. I mean like, yeah, exactly. So I mean, these people, so, I mean, and these, you know, ranges, um, cattle is everything. It is money. It is everything they are dealing with hyenas. So you're dealing with lions, leopards, cheetahs, I mean, so many big things that want to kill their livelihood literally. And, um, cause this is actually one of the big things that I brought up. Oh, is this your,
Speaker 2 00:57:51 Sorry, this is my other dog. This is Sebastian
Speaker 1 00:57:54 Sebastian Kane. And he's a little just like the sweetest things, but yeah, but when you took us, um, you know, to me or congressmen and everything like that was one of my biggest things. Having studied the ways that human predator conflict is managed at, in other countries that have way worse than anything we could ever imagine with wolves and just those methods and how they're doing it. Um, and yeah, I just really hope that some of the science is just taking into consideration and like what you said with some sort of educational programs or, um, if there's, I have not looked at any of the plans or if anything has been built yet, but if there's some sort of, um, what's the word I'm looking for, um, like compensation for when that title is taken. Um, so like if that's going to be a part of it, one of the really big things
Speaker 2 00:58:50 Position, just say they included that, that they need to figure out how to do that. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:58:57 You brought up the heat, the people aspect as well, because when I was at like cheetah conservation fund in Namibia, that was one of the things that helped tremendously having somebody with the herd, an actual human dramatically decreased the odds of Amy of there in this particular case, it was goats any of their heads of livestock being by having a person there. So that's really interesting. So would you say that that community, or, or that way of lifestyle, are they the biggest people against wolves or, or why is there so much opposition against wolves, um, and, and your experience?
Speaker 2 00:59:45 That's a tough question. And I think now I'm going to be straight up. I think, I don't know the answer to the question. I, um, the myth or the illusion is that it is mostly like hunters and ranchers that are anti Wolf. Um, however, there was a, um, a survey done by Colorado state university earlier this year. So very recently that surveyed, you know, I don't know, a couple thousand or a few thousand, um, registered voters in Colorado. And it turns out over 80% of ranchers supported, um, supported will frustration, wait a second, like, hold on. I will not even pretend to, to make up numbers. I will find the exact figures for you. I got it right here. Um, so according to this study, 82.4 hunters were in favor of Wolf frustration in Colorado, 83.3 ranchers were in favor and 79.8 voter percent of voters on the Western slope where wolves would be reintroduced were in favor. So, I mean, we have this survey done by a very reputable source that shows actually the support for both frustration and Colorado is, I mean, overwhelming. Um,
Speaker 1 01:01:10 So
Speaker 2 01:01:12 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think like the obvious, the obvious and, um, stories that are told or, or, you know, like with ranchers, like, well, we'll eat your cows, so we don't want them with hunters. It's like, well, it makes it harder to shoot an elk, so I don't want them. Um, yeah, but I mean, the fact is that, um, less than 1%, according to the us department of agriculture, less than 1% of fraction of 1% of livestock are actually taken by wolves, um, when it comes to hunting, I mean, Doug Smith, who's the lead biologist of Yellowstone national park. He says, I, and he says with pride, I, I, I think it's really cool with pride that their elk in Yellowstone are like the most tested and like the, you know, the most like honorable to, to get if you're a Hunter, because not only do they live with Pumas and bears and, you know, coyotes, et cetera, they also like live with wolves. And so it's like the most predator rich, which is a good thing. Predator rich, the S you know, the, the Savannah
Speaker 3 01:02:20 A bit of North America area in the country and like, their Alker like bad ass dude. And it's like, what? I mean, you know, our hunters here and like, granted as someone that grew up in Mississippi eating venison, like I love game, you know, someone like, you know, like, I just feel like it's good sportsmanship to like, share the land with a carnivore, just like you are all green and rehearsal Wars, but like, you know, share a land and like, share that dignity and that, like, I mean, that's sexy to me, single woman give me a very predator tasted L yes. Yes. That's the way to my heart. Also, if you're progressive and you believe in women's rights, that'll do well.
Speaker 1 01:03:15 I think a lot of the hunters, I mean, which I think is really cool. And a lot of people I wish actually understood that hunters are some of the biggest conservation advocates there are. And I really wish that a lot of people understood that.
Speaker 3 01:03:28 Um, can I challenge you for like two seconds though? Absolutely. So there is like what you just said, there's this narrative that hunters are like the original conservation S that there's some of the biggest conservationists. And, um, I don't disagree with hunters being conservationists. What I disagree is them being the original conservationists. And what I also disagree with is that, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason why they're the original conservationists and the biggest conservationists is because of privilege, um, when we were creating and adopting conservation mentality in North America and, and actually, Brooke, I'm really excited to hear what you think about this as like a trained biologist and the, and like being trained in the U S um, especially because like, yo, I'm not. So, yeah. So please tell me what you think. But we, when we adopted the North American model of conservation, we pretty much ignored.
Speaker 3 01:04:36 And throughout the window, traditional ecological knowledge of native peoples, we pretty much said like, no, they weren't, they weren't managing the land. They were just on it. They're savages. They're not doing anything. Actually the opposite was true. They were actively managing the land and white settlers came in my understanding and we're like, we need to adopt a North American model of wildlife conservation, which is actually based on principles from Europe. So not even from our continent and this North American model is based in ho you know, hunting and, um, trapping as methods of management, which ignores the benefits of carnivores. And there's, I don't know, I don't know how many, there's so many principles
Speaker 2 01:05:18 In the North American model, but either way, the reason why, like hunters are the original conservation, this is because like white men gave that group of people, the power and the means to fund conservation, like right now me as a non Hunter and a non angler, I don't have a way to like pay into conservation because I don't do that because I don't hunt or angle. Um, and like the majority of conservation funding comes from like Pittman Robertson, some other weird bills that like, which pretty much means a percentage of like firearm sales go toward conservation. Really the only reason people say that is because there's no mechanisms for, non-hunters not anglers to pay into conservation. So I think what I'm trying to say is it's based on a lineage of power and privilege, that's not extended to the rest of stakeholders. Like I'm still a stakeholder, but there's no mechanism for me to buy in. And like, I think, yeah, I'm just going to challenge it. Hunters are conservationalists, they're not the original ones. And I mean, nor do I think they're the most important because they ignore the benefits of carnivores and have actually intentionally excluded indigenous voices for many decades when it comes to land and wildlife conservation, what do you think, girl,
Speaker 1 01:06:40 That's a really good point. And coming from an area myself where hunting is really, really big, but one of the main reasons why is it's one of the only ways currently and where I'm from, I'm from like the, um, like the Western region of Appalachians. So there's no predators there. So one of the only ways in that region to help the insane overpopulation of a lot of herbivores in that area is hunting and also being from a poor area. Um, that is a really good way to feed. A lot of families is like I come from a hunting family and I absolutely love deer steak, white tail deer steak is so good. So good shit, girl, my sisters jerky is like the shit. So I would agree with you that I wouldn't necessarily call hunters today's hunters as like the original conservationist. I would completely agree that that just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 01:07:52 Like the original conservationists are the people who know the land who was, I mean, they were hunting the game very respectfully moving nomadically across the land, or even if they were stationary, then they knew the wildlife. So well only taking what they needed and if it was surplus in any way, if they knew how to store or anything like that. So, yeah, I haven't, it's, that's a really tough one, especially with the idea of not having carnivores in the area, because then that is then it's the exact same mentality of why they were pushed out in the first place. Like if somebody is a Hunter and against predators and they have the exact same mentality, that's the original white settlers that came overhead. Now the question is, is that their fault? I don't know, how were they raised? What education did they have access to?
Speaker 1 01:08:51 Are they learning all of these things that you and I are currently talking about? Like one of my really good friends, Paul, which I'm going to totally have him on here. He is an elk Hunter and he knows all these things very, very well. And I would really love to have his perspective as well, but he also is educated in these kinds of things. So is his view indicative of the Hunter population and what exactly that means. So I would agree with you that hunters aren't necessarily well hunters, as we define them today, aren't the original conservationists. But since thankfully with the way that our hunting laws are set up, that the tags do go to conservation, that, you know, if you do want to hunt some sort of animal that you have to get a tag, and if you don't take it, then it's technically illegal.
Speaker 1 01:09:49 So, and that those tags do benefit conservation. Um, so, and, but that just also goes to show how much better our management system was set up for the hunting system, because you know, and lots of countries where trophy hunting or hunting in general is not managed. It really is a really big problem where, you know, in our country, thankfully if you shoot anything that is out of what is the standard, like, what is the accepted animal that you are allowed to harvest? You can get in really big trouble. So it has to be of this height, this age, this weight, and that's the only way that you can take whatever the animal isn't, somebody is hunting. Um, so very grateful for that. I don't know if that's imposed conservation. I don't know if you would call it that. Um, so that is a really good question or just like a really good idea that you bring up.
Speaker 1 01:10:46 And me not personally being a Hunter, I don't know how much right I can give to it. Cause I can't say that this is what I do. Um, I don't know if I could personally take out any animal. I know just like you said, just like you said, fricking love eating it though. So I am, I, I tried being vegan. I, it didn't work, um, as for just, I mean, I know a lot of people can, um, but also too, I guess this almost, I didn't even have the idea of talking about this, but those kind of like dietary decisions almost. I mean, I don't know many people who can make those dietary decisions and be of, you know, certain amount of privilege if you know what I mean. So like, I mean, yeah, being a vegan, being completely plant-based and not to say that any of those are wrong at all. Like, I don't, I don't mean to say that at all or that like, I'm the devil because I eat meat every once in a while. Um, but
Speaker 2 01:12:02 Now like I will, I mean, being all vegan is it, I feel like that is indicative of some kind of privilege. I mean, even being vegetarian is indicative of some kind of privilege. I want to say, you know, I, I don't have numbers. Some percentage of America, you know, lives. And I think it's a troublingly large percentage lives in food deserts, meaning they, you know, don't have a grocery store like access to a grocery store. So they actually get their food through gas stations and convenience stores. So like the amount of fresh food that's available to people is, is, is very limited in most cases. So like being a vegan is a privilege. Being a vegetarian is often a privilege, like straight up. I'm a conservationist. I eat meat every day. Um, sometimes for multiple, alright, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fuck with you usually for multiple meals a day.
Speaker 2 01:12:52 And I, um, do my bad, like as a conservationist, I do my best to get my meat from like responsible sources. I mean, humane meat is really important to me. And I understand that like a lot of people argue that he made me actually isn't humane, and this is something that we need to address as a society of like factory farming is like fucked. And that's where like diseases start, um, you know, the Spanish influenza, like when, you know, the, the pandemic a hundred years ago, like it was started in America, not even like in Spain, like that's kind of, that's like a misnomer. They just like whitewash the shit out of that. I mean, you know, unlike lots of the different flus, like y'all remember swine flu, that shit started because dairy farming, what was that 2009? And so anyway, a lot of the issues with our society is due to like the way we process our food. And so actually conning is a super sustainable way to get your food. Granted, just like you said, like if I like imagine myself having like a deer in my sights today, I don't think I could, I don't know if I could do it. There are certain gender norms that I, um, like adhering to and everybody out there is entitled to adhere to and to reject all in any norms that they want.
Speaker 3 01:14:12 I like being the gatherer and some dude wants to hunt for me tight. Um, I don't really want to do it. So I think that that kind of just, I don't know, I'm going to lean into my, my, um, gender lineages in that one, if you know what, yeah,
Speaker 1 01:14:30 No completely, because we've talked a lot about it. And um, like with like David Attenborough's recent documentary, um, but just so freaking good. That's one of the really big things he's talking about is just the impact of the way we process and grow our meat and just the insane effect it has on this planet. And to the point where we're talking about, I mean, Lee hooking up with some of his buddies and going out on an, a crazy elk hunt, which those are insanely intense. It takes a long time to do you earn that? Um, or even just back where I'm from just, you know, hosting one of my nephews to have an extra tag so that we can have freshly harvested meat that I know was an animal that lived in insanely healthy life. It never was challenged. There's no predators there at all.
Speaker 1 01:15:23 Like the worst thing I had to deal with was cross a road and some back road, like it hit and half the time the deer hits you, you don't even hit the deer, then they're dealt with that. So that made it. So like, that's kind of where we sit to like, do, I mean, I stopped buying beef, like straight up, like I'm never going to buy beef again, even though I love rib-eyes. So it's like, you know, those personal sacrifices too, and yeah, just the, and like does then what questions does that arise? Is that the actual, proper mitigation of this kind of stuff? Like it's, it's just this, it's this never ending circle, this never ending like internal moral that we have to fight with every single thing it's like, are we making the right decisions?
Speaker 3 01:16:13 Like, um, you're making me think of the TV show, the good place of anybody out there is watched it it's on Netflix, you know, maybe watch it, but there's this a leeriness part, sorry, no spoilers. We're like this, um, being is like, what if this tomato is bad and has, um, like, uh, put workers in a dangerous situation, you know, just by a different tomato. And it's like, bitch easy, you know, like shit is hard and yeah, yeah. Things are really hard and we have to make the best decision that we can with the information that we have. And I don't know. I think I definitely believe in the sentience of like chickens and cows and pigs. Like I do not, I don't know. I think I just want to name that like I believe, and that's real.
Speaker 2 01:17:10 And um, I also want to name, like the sacredness that comes with like eating an animal and especially eating an animal. That's like lived on the land wildly. Like whenever I go home to Mississippi and granted, I haven't been home in like over a year now because of the pandemic, but whenever I go home, you know, my stepdad, he's got like a ton of venison in the freezer. He grows like a motherfucker. Um, we always do like burgers and steaks and I mean, there's something really sacred and special about eating. Like, not only am I eating this deer, I'm eating like the grass that it ain't like, I'm drinking the water from the, like, I'm like eating Mississippi. When I do that, I think there's something like beautiful. And like, like when I eat that, that becomes like myself and my tissue. And I mean, there's no way to underestimate like how special that is and like how, how much I can, I can honor the place that I came from and the wildlife that moved there. And so, I don't know. I, I think I, I just, I don't know. I want to take a second to like, honor that, that, um, no conservation is not just hunting conservation involves like a lot more than that and, you know, I respect it and I benefit from it. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1 01:18:42 Circle of life. I just think it just goes to show how far we've come from life we evolved from, like, I don't think we actually, I don't think it's not even that. I know that if we could somehow communicate with a human being from 10,000 years ago, they'd be like, what the fuck are you talking? What do you mean? Like some, you know, native peoples in our own land and where we're from, like bison was bison, was everything everybody seen was life. And so the idea of pretty much this whole conversation we've had for the past, however many minutes just wouldn't even be a thing because that's just how we evolve as a species.
Speaker 2 01:19:25 So yes, definitely. And you know, 10,000 years ago there were what, like maybe a few thousand humans on the planet and now there's seven and a half billion and it's like, yeah, we have to create it. And we have to get innovative. And I mean, I believe we have to regulate each other. Like if every human, if an, if every individual, you know, committed to like going, being, and conserving water, conserving electricity, that wouldn't matter because the vast majority of polluters and users are big business and industrial things. So it's, so, I mean, at the end of the day, like we're in, we are in a new world, a lot of the same, I don't know a lot of the same things exist. And like, we have to change the way we do business. We have to change the way we treat people. We have to give each other basic human rights.
Speaker 2 01:20:28 I mean, and that includes bio-diversity that includes, you know, access to green spaces and nature. Um, and I think like if I can take us full circle, this is where, where it comes back of the importance of advocacy and community engagement. Because without those things, yeah, we're going to be overtaken by climate change and communities, frontline communities that did not, or very much less so contributed to climate change will be the ones that feel the negative effects first. So it is, I mean, it's our responsibility as humans to fix that shit. Like, fuck those people, that's bullshit. You know, I feel, you know, one person the 1% like, and when I say 1%, like I'm not talking about the people that make half a million a year, I'm talking about like the people like Jeff Bezos that like makes like, I don't know that it's profited so much from this pandemic.
Speaker 2 01:21:30 Like he makes like $200,000 a second. I don't know. I just made that up. It's something really crazy. Um, but like that, shouldn't be a thing when people are starving and people are losing their homes and species are going extinct. I mean, that not only is there like traditional ecological knowledge and, and, and human communities that are being lost. I mean, there's species like orcas in our and Puget sound in the Pacific Northwest. I mean, each of their clans, their pods, like they have traditional knowledge that they pass down to their children and those baby whales, their children, they only have a 50% survival rate because dams inhibit salmon from getting to the ocean, which is their main food source. So it's like, again, like one, like very few people are profiting one species and all of the rest of human stakeholders are the ones paying the price. I mean, so I dunno, I guess like my, my message here is like, why that's.
Speaker 1 01:22:35 Yeah. And even in that point, I mean, would there be people who do make a lot of money, like they've strived for that. And so I will never be against anybody who does make a lot of money. Like, I, I won't, um, it's more of, I think now kind of like in your important role in anybody who talks to people, um, my, or, you know, organizations that do is how aware are people of these bigger issues and how
Speaker 2 01:23:06 Much and how they know what they can do to help. And I mean, cause I don't, I don't know that. I mean, I've, I have no idea what it's like to work 90 hours a week and run a multi-billion dollar business. I have no idea what pressures are on a human being of that scale to, to know what it's like day to day. And I won't even try to understand and like how powerful it would be if we could get into those types of circles. If these conversations that we're having right now could get into more circles of that type of influence, what could potentially happen, which, I mean, that might just be an untapped resource, but again, I don't know, I've never talked to a billionaire. I D I don't know that that's something that I'm completely ignorant in.
Speaker 4 01:24:02 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:24:03 So, yeah, I think that that's tough. I, uh, again, I'm, uh, I'm gonna push back a little bit and I want to hear what you think about this. I,
Speaker 2 01:24:15 And then not saying that you said this, but I mean, there's no such thing as a, as a self made man. Like that's not really, that's due to privilege. That's due to community people like you need help in. And I think that to an extent, I, how do I, what do I want to say? I do think to an extent, people with a lot of money, like, I don't know. And when I say a lot of money, I mean like a lot of money, I'm not talking about like a normal person with a lot of money. I'm talking about like a lot of money. I mean, I think that to have a lot of money, you gotta like take advantage of a lot of different things. And I also want to say that there's something, I mean, inequitable about being a billionaire that I don't, that I want to challenge.
Speaker 2 01:25:06 And I, I actually came across a statistic. I pulled it up really quick. Um, a colleague of mine sent it to us and it says a white male with a high school diploma. Only a high school diploma is 40% more likely to become a millionaire and a black man with a master's degree. And so like money funnels toward privilege. And I mean, in addition to that capitalism, which perpetuates this, like rich get richer and the poor get poor and the middle-class dissolves. I mean, I work for a nonprofit. I don't make a lot of money. I am luckily like, I am privileged I'm from a fairly well-to-do family. And I mean, I'm okay. But a lot of people don't have the privilege that I do to be able to like, not make a lot of money, um, and, and, and, and, you know, work for a nonprofit.
Speaker 2 01:26:01 And so I guess I just want to challenge that. I think the concept of like being a billionaire is really inequitable and that, you know, unless you're white and probably a man, you know, your, um, your opportunities are just, you know, drastically decreased. And as long as we live in a world that is unequal like that, like there's no justice for anybody, including the natural world. Cause those people, you know, I mean, they get rich from consumption and capitalism perpetuates, you know, the sacrificing of one's body and when it's time to make money, I mean, I'm not a sex worker, but I do give my body over to my job to pay my bills and feed my dog goes. So, yeah. I mean, shit. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:27:00 So it sounds like, you know, a lot about this topic, which is fantastic.
Speaker 2 01:27:04 Um, yeah. So,
Speaker 1 01:27:07 So how do, and your experience are currently what you're, you're working on or your communications or anything like that? How do we bring in a more diverse group of people into the conversation that we're having right now? So whether it comes to conservation or just having access to, you know, sustainable food or from your experience, how do we bring more people into it?
Speaker 2 01:27:32 Yeah, girl. Yeah. Yeah. This gives me sites. Um, so I mean one way or we bring more people in and this is just like, be careful how we talk. I mean, I guess, yeah, we need to be more inclusive with our language. So conservation again, doesn't just have to do with hunting, which is majority white men, you know, only 6% of the American population hunts and granted they're really, yes. Girl six. I honestly didn't know. Is that low percent? Yeah, it's really low. And so, and not that like, again, not that hunters aren't important stakeholder, but it's, they're a very small stakeholder. And so be being careful with the way that we speak and who we put on a pedestal. I mean, there is if only 6% of American time, that's like 94% of the entire country that we need to be including in our decision-making in conservation. Um, and conservation doesn't just have to do with the spaces that are like pristine and untouched. And like granted those wilderness spaces, there's wilderness spaces, spaces are in valuable and needed and essential for our health and mitigating climate change and atmospheric fancy things that happened with molecules. Um, but contribution can also happen in cities and, and the of green spaces
Speaker 3 01:29:02 And green roofs and pollinator gardens and growing our own food. Um, and the encouragement of like a biodiversity. And we can also participate in conservation by being intentional about how we deal with actually like our most successful species. I mean, think about it, our most successful species, like outside of humans. Cause we are like the most successful we went, okay, we're killing everything. Um, our most essential species are like raccoons and squirrels and coyotes. And like these things that like people don't like and mice and like these things that people poison actually, you know, it's funny, the reason we kill them is because they're like so good at what they do. And in fact, if we could kind of look at it from a little more of a holistic point of view and like experiment with, with what that would look like of doing it on a large scale, um, I always go back, Oh God, I'm the worst.
Speaker 3 01:30:00 I can't remember his name is this black man from, I want to say it was New York city, but I'm the worst broke. Maybe I'll get you his name for like the summary of this. Yes. He did a presentation at Naropa where I got my master's and he was like, you know, we have this amazing community garden. He was like, you know, we plant tomatoes, we plant corn, we plant all this stuff and you know what? We have a lot of squirrels, so we plant sunflowers. So the squirrels leave our corn alone. And I mean, there's just these like really simple, beautiful, um, solutions to problems that we often try to use violence to, to whatever I'm to handle. Yeah. Thank you. So I guess what I'm trying to like when it comes to us, like incorporating more people, I think we need to look, look beyond wilderness spaces.
Speaker 3 01:30:50 Um, I think we need to use more inclusive language and English need to ask. We just need to reach out. I mean, I live in Colorado, I'm a white person, white people in Colorado are the most like scene I think. And like the most, um, I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is like moving from the South to Colorado, it was, it was very apparent to me that the, like the makeup of the state felt different and was different and was a lot more white. And, um, I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is being, just being more inclusive. Like for example, I'm doing this really cool project through work and it's about Monarch butterflies. And we already, you know, mentioned that really sad statistic about monarchs, if there's less than 2000 in the West. And, um, I worked with a little under a hundred volunteers to fold thousands of origami monarchs. And now I'm working with, uh, Latin X artists to create an installation with all these origami monarchs. It's going to be really, really cool. But point of that is
Speaker 2 01:32:00 The point. The reason why I w I outreach to this artist, or actually I kind of, he outreached to me was that, um, the Monarch is really, really important to Mexican indigenous cultures. They actually monarchs are, they don't represent, they are the spirits of deceased, loved ones of children of elders. And they visit them once a year on DIA de Los Muertos. And I mean, it's this beautiful, um, connection that they have. And, you know, without the monarchs, if, if our monarchs go extinct here in the West, like it's kind of looking like that they will like many folks, especially in California where they migrate to overwinter, they will lose that connection with their ancestors. I mean, so we're not even, we're not just talking about biological conservation, we're talking about the contribution of cultures here. And so, I mean, I think just like, again, going back to your question of how do we, how do we bring this in? I mean, like, let's just look beyond ourselves a little bit and like, see we're all affected by this. Mostly our frontline communities that are affected by loss of biodiversity and pollinators and how they grow our food. And God, I mean, I could talk forever burgers that installation
Speaker 1 01:33:12 Gonna be by chance.
Speaker 2 01:33:14 So I'm actually the world I will address you. Um, it'll be at the museum of Boulder, uh, shout out to them. Thanks so much, um, in April and may, but, um, that installation who, which is being done by Cal Duran, um, I think you can visit as well, website CA uh, art by cow.com. Just send
Speaker 1 01:33:38 It to me. I'll make sure I put it in the notes too.
Speaker 2 01:33:40 Yeah, it should be done in January. So we're, we're actually looking for a spot for it to be showcased in February and March. And then like after may, um, and granted like COVID is weird and like people, you know, we're, it's not like we're trying to encourage people to go out in public and, and get sick, but, um, we're still pushing, you know, we're still trying to find a way to navigate all of that, but, um, yeah, using the Boulder in April and may still open to, um, February and March locations as well as after.
Speaker 1 01:34:12 That's awesome. Oh my gosh. I can't
Speaker 2 01:34:14 Wait to be so cool.
Speaker 1 01:34:17 That's going to be cool. That's a really awesome project. Gosh, the monarchs are so special, so that's, that's awesome. So this one, this next question I have, um, am I go a little close to home, but
Speaker 2 01:34:33 When do you think
Speaker 1 01:34:36 You'll have reached success and whatever you define success as
Speaker 3 01:34:44 Girl?
Speaker 2 01:34:47 Wow. Um, when will I read success? I mean, I always said, well, not always in the last handful of years,
Speaker 3 01:34:58 I've said I want to make $80,000 a year. And the reason for that is there's like this bell curve. I dunno, somebody, some researchers created it and it was like, um, a bell curve of like the more money you have, the happy you happier, you are up to $80,000. And then after that, like the less happy you are. And so I was like, okay, success means I'm making $80,000 a year. Y'all I make way less than that. So, and I'm still pretty happy. Um, I mean, when I say pretty happy, yeah. I'm generally happy. I struggle. I struggle with, um, some, I, I struggle with anxiety and depression. Like a lot of like a lot of Americans you had actually, um, this is really important to me to de-stigmatize like I take medication and it's been a long road of finding out what medication works for me and which one makes me feel good.
Speaker 3 01:35:55 I'm kind of like feeling good on one right now. And I'm like, all right, this is holding steady. Like that's positive. Great. Um, but that's definitely put a kink in my, you know, like my happiness plan and my plan to, you know, address, like what is success to me? And I mean, especially considering the work that I do is so like success is subjective because change happens so incredibly slowly, I mean the endangered species act and a lot of other really important environmental laws were passed in the early 1970s and 80 90. I mean, it's been, you know, almost 50 years since all that happened. And I mean, and granted, you know, the civil rights movement was, you know, 50 60 is, and like, we're still struggling, you know? So like success, I think I have to really modify my definition of success, not by what is the paradigm like is the paradigm changing?
Speaker 3 01:37:00 Because I, as an individual can only do so much, but it's more like, I think my definition of success is do I feel good at the end of the day and as a perfectionist, which is self-defeating, um, as a perfectionist that shifts daily and some days like I'm on top of it and I'm like, yeah, girl, you did everything you could. It's cool. And then other days I'm like, you're an idiot. I can't believe you didn't finish this. You're lazy. There's something wrong with you. I cannot believe you even have this job right now. Like, that's like, you know, I know I'm not the only one that has those bullshit thoughts. So I mean, what is success look like to me? I don't know. My vet gave my dog goes like, Oh, a plus plus in health last month when we went to the vet, that means I'm being a really good dog mom. Um, you know, actually ever since the pandemic, my, like, I can't fit in any of jeans. And, um, I'm becoming okay with that sort of, that's probably a measure of success. Um, I'm making it to work every morning. That's a measure of success. I mean, I think like, I dunno my measure of success is going to change daily and
Speaker 1 01:38:19 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And thanks for also feeling open enough to talk about your depression and being on medication. Um, some of the most important people in my life suffer from similar diagnoses and any light that we can bring to that is incredibly important just to show that it's not a stigma. It's okay. There's so many people that are dealing with similar things and you coming off as such a happy bubbly person. I think it shows a lot that you're like, even I have my demons and I'm here with you. I'm I go through this myself, this is what I'm doing. It's okay. And I think that more of those conversations need to happen. I think a lot of those conversations need to happen because it's real, it's real. It's very real. And we all fight it. I think it's almost just almost part of our cultural norm of being raised. Just, I think it's like, I mean, I don't know when it started, like what generation it started, but it definitely is like, if you, you need to do this, the only way you're going to succeed is if you get the degrees and you have to get this grade and then you have to have this paycheck when you get out of school and if you're not doing that, then you're a failure. And like,
Speaker 3 01:39:40 Yeah. And by the way, you're a woman, why aren't you married? And you don't have kids. So like, let's add like another layer of like, you know, obligation to that.
Speaker 1 01:39:50 Yeah. Kids it's like, or it does not that a conversation we need to have over a bottle of wine after this,
Speaker 3 01:39:59 After the other bottle of wine. Yeah. And maybe, you know, I know, you know, we've been talking for a really long time and I appreciate you so much, Brooke, for like giving me this space to just like that and get on my pedestal. And, um, you know, I, I think I actually like, was like, I wanted to touch on mental health quite a bit and this, and, um, I honestly think like maybe like I wanted to talk about it more, but there's so many, like I said, there's so many important things for us to talk about, but, um, maybe for those, maybe something I just want to say is that, you know, I don't always feel like my, I don't always feel like my bosses understand what I'm going through. I don't always feel like my colleagues or my friends, you know, understand what I'm going through with my, um, mental health challenges and like, yeah, girl, I worked so hard to make sure that knows that, you know, I struggle with those things and that's like due to conditioning and all the other stuff that we all just like get put on us.
Speaker 3 01:41:07 But, um, I think, you know, this is so silly. Bernay Brown says like, um, China light on your shame. And I think like, that's my shame. And I want to name that, you know, I don't feel understood and it's, and it's really challenging. And I actually, in a lot of ways don't feel like I was meant for this world with the way that, um, I am made up and the struggles that come with that. And, and granted, and again, like being a white woman, I have a lot of privileges that a lot of people don't. And so people out there that have a different skin color than me and my same mental health challenges, like, you know, like, fuck, I, I see you and I don't understand how much harder it is for you. And I acknowledge that it is, you know what I mean? And so I think, I just want to say, I think, I just want to say that it's okay. That it's hard and you know, it's still hard for me. And I think all I can do is get up every day and hang out with my dogs and keep crushing it like you are because you're such an amazing person
Speaker 5 01:42:23 Try it. You know,
Speaker 3 01:42:26 It only looks like it only looks easy. Okay. Hashtag struggle, shuffle. Um, but yeah, I think I just feel all those people out there, I think is what I'm trying to, trying to say, not to get too mushy. No, thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that the conversation naturally came to the place where you could say that, because that is very important. That's very important. Thank you. Thank you for reading the space. You're wonderful. That's allowed to happen. Good, good. Absolutely. And, um, so just kind of come closer to the end here. What is, and you can say anything you want, what is as if you haven't already, but what is one of the biggest asks or one of the final asks that you have of anybody listening to this right now? Oh yeah. Find your thing. Find the thing that you're care about, find the thing that you care about. Find the thing you're passionate about. Like I said, mine is wildlife and animals. You know, maybe yours is immigration and getting kids out of cages. Maybe yours is black lives matter. Maybe yours is, um, LBGTQ plus rights and equity. I mean, whatever it is, find that thing that you care about that you're passionate about, that gets you psyched and like work for that thing
Speaker 1 01:44:07 To live up to what you're put on this earth for. Yeah. Sometimes it takes us a while to figure out what that is, but that's okay. That's part of the journey. That's part of the journey of being on this planet
Speaker 3 01:44:17 And then take a fucking walk the fuck out, take a nap. Naps are so important. The Nat ministry, I just want to do a quick shout out for them. It's like Instagram, the Nat ministry, just search it. Like that's like it's combating capitalism through rest, which it's, it's, it's way much, it's way more than that. But like, that's something that I care a lot about.
Speaker 1 01:44:42 That's awesome. Yeah. And just finding ways to disconnect, like I've been personally on a journey of finding ways to just disconnect more and, um, meditation and like all those kinds of things of just the, the mental health of, I mean, just taking care of yourself and figuring out who you are and, and what's going on in your brain and all those kinds of things. So, yeah. And just taking a walk, like one of the things I've recently started doing is leaving my phone at my place. So I can't listen to podcasts, which I listened to all the time. I can listen to podcasts, I can listen to music and I just go out and be by myself. And it's pretty amazing what things will come up or what's solutions that to a problem that I couldn't figure out what to do. I just apparently just needed some head space. And so just going on a walk, just disconnecting. Oh. And also I'm shutting off my phone notifications from 8:00 PM to 8:00 AM. So yeah. So that's also been a really big, like help to anybody with that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:45:50 That I roll over and look at my phone and I'm like, no, but I want to, um,
Speaker 1 01:45:58 That's, that's helped me a lot because I get up way before 8:00 AM. So I know I'm psycho. I have no reason I don't have to get up at that time, but I do anyways. So that's just my thing.
Speaker 3 01:46:09 You're are you nocturnal or diurnal?
Speaker 1 01:46:12 Oh, I am so early morning diurnal, like yeah, girl. I mean I'm so I'm the early person. I'm the early bird. I'm the it's dark right now. I need to be in bed. Like I'm so classic, like 6:00 AM, 9:00 PM done. That's done. That's just me though. Everyone can be on their own time schedule, but that's me. Um, so yeah, if anybody wants to get a hold of you, I mean, are you on social media or, or you don't have to put out your email, but if you want to, what's the best. If anybody,
Speaker 3 01:46:50 You know, I'm happy to put out my contact information. Um, I'm on, I'm on Twitter. I don't really believe in Twitter and Facebook have, y'all heard of a God, all the stuff that's going on and says, Gary, um, the Twitter is H Hawkins at IES or wait at H Hawkins ESE. So endangered species, coalition, ESE. And then my email is
[email protected]. Um, I am always looking for people to help. I'm always looking for people for volunteers. I'm always looking for people to lend your voice, your hands, your, you know, typing your communication in whatever form that looks like for you, um, to put towards wildlife advocacy. Um, and more than that, I can also also connect you with like some other really amazing organizations. If, if what you're passionate about, isn't quite what I work on. I'm happy to, you know, like pay it, pay that forward and, and move you to somebody like to someplace where you can make a really big impact.
Speaker 3 01:47:49 But, um, yeah, that's awesome. And what's the, what's your organization's website to endangered.org. Okay. Okay. We have a really great, Oh, that's easy. I was like, is it in coalition? No endangered that org, I just miss her. Our digital director is dope. Jeff stealing that fricking URL was good on his part. That domain name. He's like <inaudible> good. Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ellie. Yeah. Awesome. This was great. And I can't wait til next time. Thank you, Brooke. Come skiing. You're the best. Hey, thanks again. You're listening to this episode of <inaudible>. If you'd like that you heard hit that subscribe button to never miss a future episode. Do you have an environmental organization travel story or research that you'd like to share? Let me know <inaudible> dot com until next time friends together, we will. Rewild the planet.
