[00:00:00] Speaker A: We've all heard about the devastation palm oil plantations have caused in critical wildlife habitats across Asia, but we don't often hear solutions to the problem.
How do we conserve the wild jungles of Indonesia while also supporting the communities that call the islands home? Welcome to Rewildology, the nature podcast that delves to the human side of conservation, travel, and rewilding our planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Jane Dunlop, an inspirational conservationist who is protecting endangered species and fragile ecosystems in Indonesia. Jane's journey began in 2008 when she relocated to the island of Sumatra with her husband, Luke. Called to protect this biodiverse paradise. She witnessed firsthand the threats of poaching, deforestation, and unsustainable palm oil practices.
In response, Jane and her husband co founded three, yes, three impactful organizations, Ecosystem Impact, Aluan and the Mahimahi Surf Resort. Ecosystem Impact focuses on conservation issues in Sumatra, working to protect sea turtles, songbirds and their habitats. Aluan partners with local coconut farmers to promote sustainable farming and eco business, and the Mahimahi Surf Resort generates funds to support ecosystem impact critical conservation initiatives. In our conversation, Jane shares the origin story of her organizations, her efforts to protect endangered sea turtles and other wildlife, restore songbird populations, and provide sustainable livelihoods to local communities. All of this while balancing the most important role in her life, being a mother.
Jane also provides tangible ways we can support conservation in Sumatra and around the world.
So get ready, fellow rewildologists, for a purposeful exploration through the jungles of Sumatra in Jane Dunlop's amazing Story of passion and purpose.
Well, hi, Jane. Thank you for sitting down with me on literally the complete opposite side of the world, which is so cool that we can even do this. And so, first, let's introduce you to everyone listening, just who are you?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: What's your name?
[00:02:48] Speaker A: What do you do? Who's Jane?
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Thank you, Brooke. And it's so nice to be speaking again.
My name is Jane. And, yeah, who is Jane? I guess these days my time is spent between being a mom and I guess, actually, in many ways, I am mothering the birth and sort of early years of my children, as well as two different organizations. So I founded and am the CEO of an organization called Alawan and another organization called Ecosystem Impact, which I'm looking forward to exploring with you today. Yes.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Oh, we're going to get into all those things. But let's maybe go back a couple years to share context and how these two fantastic organizations came to be and how they're together, but they're not, which is going to be so fun to explore with you. So maybe first, can you pinpoint maybe the moment that this path launched, was there like an experience that you had that you're like, oh, my gosh, this is my calling. This is my. Why was it a gradual thing? Or what was that like for you? What started this?
[00:04:08] Speaker B: I have always been very connected to our planet, to nature, so I don't think there was ever any one moment.
I grew up in New Zealand. I grew up on a farm. And my favorite thing to do was always to just put on a pair of running shoes. And I would run forever and always felt comfortable and at home in nature and on my own or on the farm with the animals, I would ask my parents to drop me off in the middle of nowhere and run home. So I've always felt at home in the wild, in the mountains, with my own or with others. I went to university and I saw my friends at law school signing up for summer Clark Sherps and receiving bottles of champagne. And I just found myself looking over the other side and just having absolutely no interest in that. And it started me thinking, what am I going to do? And so I started exploring opportunities.
And my mother in law, or my now mother in law, actually found this little clipping in their newspaper that talked about opportunities to go overseas and do conservation, volunteer environment work. And I think within six months, I took a semester off university, and I ended up in Borneo in Malaysia.
And so that was definitely, when I look back, that was a milestone, certainly on the path. I spent my 21st birthday in the middle of the rainforest. And I remember calling on the radio home, and I also distinctly remember, after that visit, sorry, after that trip, it was with other young people. There are about 30 of us. I decided to travel on my own afterwards, and I took a bus trip through Sarawak in Malaysia. And for probably 10 hours, I saw these little green buds in this blackened landscape, and it was palm oil, and they'd completely cleared the landscape. And just for hours and hours, we drove this bus through this dense sort of almost desert area.
And I laughedily found out that that was palm oil and that had been more recently responsible for the massive clearing of those landscapes. So those are big turning points for me. Finished university, finished my law degree, and my partner, Luke and I, we ended up in Singapore, and we met an incredible legal professor, a guy named Daniel Fitzpatrick. And I ended up doing some work with him.
He was part of the legal team, and I did research and support with him. He'd been working on this place called Ace in Sumatra, which had just experienced the Indian Ocean tsunami in 2006. And so sort of straight out of university, we ended up working with him on that. And he, after that time in Singapore, got both Luke, my partner and I jobs in Arche.
So that was almost 20 years ago now, and that was the start of the journey.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: How cool.
All right, and for context, though, you're still there.
What about the island called to you and sent you on the trajectory that you're currently doing now? So why is the island so special to you?
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so, 20 years ago, we ended up in this place called Arthur that's just had this huge tsunami, and it's also one of the most important ecosystems on the planet. So three and a half million hectares of forest still, orangutans, tigers, rhinos, elephants, and we fell in love with this place and has had this long term commitment to working there. So all of our work now is on an island called Simalu, off the coast of Sumatra. If you can imagine the island of Sumatra over the last 30 years, there's been extensive conversion forests. It's been one of the highest deforestation rates in the world, but the area that we are working, there has been a long term conflict there and it actually left the forests intact. So we've got this real opportunity in a very special part of the world where sea turtles nest every night of the year and where the forests are still intact. The island that we are on still has 80% forest cover.
And, yeah, we are there working with two different organizations to protect and consider the islands for the future.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: And so I would love if you could maybe give us some more context. So I'm sure that I know me and I'm sure a lot of people listening, and you brought them up like the Sumatran wildlife, Sumatran orangutans and rhinos and tigers and all this incredible wildlife. But maybe we might not know what exactly is happening. And you gave us a couple of hints, but could you maybe teach us a little bit more what is going on with the island? Why are you working so hard to conserve it? What are the conservation issues? What's the driver of them? And then at the same time, what are they?
And then we can go into solutions later, but first, teach us what is going on to this beautiful place.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks, Brooke.
The big threat we are is that we will see conversion of the landscape to an industrial land use, most likely palm oil, and that would have downstream effects. You'll see conversion of forest areas, so you'll have impacts to the wildlife and you'll have huge impacts to the river systems. These communities are really dependent on rivers for all of their water needs.
And those livelihoods, the community livelihoods are dependent on those forest resources as well. So if you can imagine the islands, we would just see conversion probably of 50% off the island to palm oil thirsty, most likely. So one of the main livelihoods on the island is coconuts. Coconuts on the island are aging so that in their senile years and they need replanting, it's an existing land use that's very important to people there, mostly subsistence of their fishes. They'll have their rice fields, they'll have coconut farms, and then they'll have some agroforestry, like you can imagine the Indonesian spices, nutmeg eggs and cloves. So their livelihoods are sustainable and they rely highly on natural resources. But one of the main challenges that the coconut sector in particular faces is that the trees are aging and that farmers don't have the ability to replant. And if they don't do that, likely that some other land use will come in and it's likely to be palm oil companies because they have the resources to invest. The other issues that we're facing from a conservation perspective is that there's a lot of poaching of wildlife and sea turtles in particular. So there's a number of critically endangered and endangered sea turtles, the big leatherback turtle. And what's really happening is that fishers are going out, they're fishing, and then they're just grabbing turtle eggs to support their income. And so, yeah, we are focusing on the issue of conversion of these large forest areas, farmers, and particularly in the coconut sector, just because on eating trees and then the wildlife where there are particular threats. So sea turtles and songbirds are also facing significant threats in the area where we're working.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: It sounds to me, and having been in this field in a while and traveling quite a lot, it sounds like maybe there isn't that much opportunity outside of consumptive industries. Does it sound like for the local community? And does that also mean, is there a growing population? Like, is there a growing population of young people and there isn't much opportunity? And that's what's driving poachinG? Or I guess from the social part of this. What is driving this?
From what you've seen?
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah, what's driving poaching? I think that in many cases, people just think the resource is going to be a forever. So if we think about turtle eggs, every single turtle egg from every single nest has been poached for the past decades, and they've always been there. So I don't think there's this understanding that one day they won't be.
So that knowledge and understanding and also meat, the turtle eggs are consumed, so they're a protein source and easy to take when someone's out on an island and you're fishing.
So for additional income without any extra effort, it's just. I'd probably do the same thing if I was a Fisher person and my family needed feeding. There's not big networks involved in it. There's nothing undercover. It's just we grab them. And so I remember watching a video of David attenborough eating sea turtles. There's some footage of him from, like, 20 or 30 years ago. So I think sometimes these conservation issues, we can blow up as this big, serious thing, but for people involved in those activities, it's just an everyday thing. And we talk about education and knowledge and things like that, and they can often seem like quite grandiose things, but people are going about their everyday activities and just don't know that it's an issue.
So it's often just about having present in that landscape and building relationships and being there and changing that knowledge over time. But the other issue is the poaching of songbirds. So this is a significant songbird crisis. So there's, like, an Asian songbirds working group and a lot of people focusing on songbirds in Southeast Asia. And poaching of songbirds is much more serious. There's a serious songbird trade in this part of the world, and people will be paid to go out and collect birds and then sell them into markets in Indonesia and throughout the region.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Oh, so people are wanting them more as pets? Is that the main driver?
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a saying in Indonesia that's like, you're only a real man if you've got your knife and your bird, and so it's quite a status symbol, and you've got your bird in your cage that sings. So we are actually focusing on one subspecies of bird that is extinct in the world. Sorry, one species of bird that is extinct in the wild and one that maybe has only a number of individuals left. So it's a real crisis, and we're working with a number of groups internationally on that.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Yeah.
So help me piece this all together. So it sounds like there is definitely a dynamic of things going on. One, you have this incredible ecosystem that is amazing and provides a lot of things, like, a lot of things that we need. It can support coconuts, it can support biodiversity, it can support spices, all the stuff that we love, and includes underground markets as well, the poaching, the illegal pet trade industry, all those kinds of things. And maybe a lack of opportunity in other ways, shapes or form that might be more of a sustainable livelihood. So then let's get more to the solution side, maybe, I guess. When did you realize and notice these problems and how did you decide to become a solution to what you were seeing around you in this beautiful space?
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that was a process of learning and we had this incredible opportunity. When I say we, my partner Luke and I have been doing this together.
So we landed, as these youths really, in arche after the tsunami. And there was a $7 billion aid effort of all of these international organizations around the world. And so we got a very good feel for the donor funded sector, the NGO World, and had the opportunity to really learn and to go deep. I worked for an organization called Fauna and Flora International and did a lot of work on Indigenous peoples rights, supporting communities to access forest resources, to get rights to their forest and natural resources, and learned so much by living and working in communities in these parts of the world. And that expanded into working more internationally on conservation projects and also into the world of carbon markets and where sort of business met conservation.
One thing that we experienced by working in the donor world, and really what I see looking back in RJ and something that I'm really challenged by was the short term donor funding cycles and these big projects that had a limited time span, and then the work really just did not continue.
And that really was the case for a lot of work. In Ache, yes, there was some incredible work done, but for the conservation work in particular, it could only go so far. And the opportunity to work in the early days of some of the carbon projects when there was investments coming into conservation organizations, it really opened my eyes and showed to me the opportunities around business and conservation working together.
So I worked for some time with Fauna and Flora International and Macquarie bank, who had raised investment capital to develop number of commercially financed projects around the world that were focused on conservation. And we had flexible funding for the first time.
If something didn't make sense, we just had a meeting about it and we redirected that finance. If we needed some additional funding and it was justifiable, that was a simple conversation and that doesn't really happen in the donor community and it's common sense if you're involved in business, but in the donor world, yeah, the restrictions on funding and requesting money and then having to spend it on this, sometimes it's very limiting and actually can have negative impacts. So there was a need to blend this in some way and to take the good aspects and all of the incredible impactful work that conservation organizations and other NGOs do. But how to work this alongside having an economic engine really needing to scale, being part of an economy, employing people. And so those were challenges as well as opportunities that we experienced and learned from and took to the work that we're doing now.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: So is this when ecosystem impact was born?
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah, we actually founded two organizations alongside of each other. So ecosystem impact is a foundation that was set up to really focus on the sort of work that a more traditional conservation organization might do. We also established a company at the same time and they sit alongside each other. They share a vision and a mission, but they do different things, they play different roles in that area. So the company is called Alawan Company, works with smallholder farmers in the coconut sector. And we've actually built a processing facility or a factory out on the island of Simalu where we work. So yeah, one island, actually one landscape. And these two organizations were founded at the same time and work alongside each other.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Let's definitely go way deeper into this because I love this concept and I hope that it happens more and more and becomes more of a thing like my current organization. We started a foundation a couple of years ago and one of its main funders, I guess you can say, is the for profit side. So every single person that goes on one of our safaris around the world, a portion of the trip, it goes to the foundation and then people can also donate to it as well. And then when I worked for another conservation travel company, they were the exclusive travel partners of the World Wildlife Fund, WWF. And a big chunk of the revenue that they made every single year went directly to WWF. And the travelers also donated to them. So I've seen firsthand the amazingness that can happen when you partner a for profit and a nonprofit.
Because I was previously only in a nonprofit world. And I think we're kind of not brainwashed, but kind of to think that the only way to do impact is if you're doing nonprofit work and that if you're working for a for profit, then they are just capitalist assholes, which is not true. When you have a good business model, you can actually fund conservation and then you won't have to worry about these crazy funding cycles and asking donors all the time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that is another reason why I wanted to talk to you deep about this, because it's a growing thing, and you have a perfect example of how you can put the two together and they both reach the same mission of conserving this beautiful landscape. So let's dive into this more. So maybe let's talk about the conservation side a little bit more. So what all does ecosystem impact do from, like you said, like the normal, classic conservation side. Tell me about your ranger program. How do you involve local communities, the wildlife, all those kinds of things? Let's start there.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so we are mostly the local community.
We have, I think, 65 employees now, and 60 of those are from the island. That's a lot. And then the other staff are mostly from other places in Indonesia. So we are based on the island, we're registered on the island and our staff from the island, and that's really important for us. Most of the staff are community rangers, and those are women and men from the local community who are trained to protect critically endangered animals from extinction. And in our landscape, that is the sea turtles and songbirds. It's mostly been focused on sea turtles to date. And so the incredible community rangers are living full time in these remote islands, and they're patrolling the beaches and collecting data morning and night and, yeah, protecting these sea turtle eggs. On Bankaru island, for example, there's this piece of beach where sea turtles nest every single night of the year. And it's only because of these rangers that hatchlings are making their way to the ocean every morning of the year. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. And before we were involved, around about six years ago, the inconsistent funding to the program meant that there were sometimes rangers on the island and sometimes not. And whenever they weren't there, everybody would just come pillage. But since we have been there, there have been patrols morning and night, 365 days a year. So it's really just about being a consistent presence, and that's really important to work with the community. At the end of the day, it's their resource that the custodians, and it's important that they're benefiting from any of the actual conservation work or funding that's coming into that area.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Let's go back to the ranger program and the local community that you have involved. It sounds like you mentioned, too, that you also are working with women in the area. So how has that gone? How have you been able to involve women in this awesome project that you're doing?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So, to date, most of our Ranges, the community Ranges, have been men and ecosystem impact. The foundation, it's been interesting. But the Rangers, and even if you think of that word Ranger, what is up in your mind often is a man patrolling.
And that really is the case where we are, and I think out of sort of 40 Rangers, 39 of them are men, and we've only just started employing women.
So it's a real focus of us, of our work. Now, in the islands that we work, it's Indonesia's only province where there's Sharia law, and there's often a perception that it's not appropriate work for women to be involved in this. But it's interesting you delve a little deeper and you speak with women directly, that there's actually a lot of passion and interest to be involved. So it's very important for us that we're involving women in label management and that women are involved in making the decisions in the organization. So a lot of my work is focused on building a team and ensuring that that team is inclusive. And that really means that women are involved in decision making roles in the organization, because without that, very, very different decisions are made and it flows down to the structure of our teams. And so that's actually been a real challenge. It's been a challenge for me personally because I've been bringing up two children at the same time. And so I have not been able to play a day to day operational role that I might otherwise be able to play. So I've really had to focus on where I place my attention.
And over time, I've realized that that is really building the team and having the right woman involved that would represent the voice that perhaps on a day to day basis, I'm not able to bring.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: So let's switch now to Alawan. I would love to learn more about, because it seems like this is, from what I understand, this is really your bread and butter. This is like what you work on a lot. So tell me about that. Maybe how did the idea for you've given me little seeds, but maybe put it all together. How did Alawan come together and how does the organization work?
What is a day to day? How do you meet your farmers? What's the big goal? Yeah, just tell me everything.
Alawan.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah. In some ways, ecosystem impact, the foundation. It's an amazing organization and very impactful. But it's also, like many other conservation organizations, it's raising money in its present state from donors and is implementing quite traditional conservation work. There are other organizations that are similar. Alawan is extremely challenging. We are implementing a company, a business. We are raising international investment finance and we're investing it into a remote island landscape in Indonesia off the coast of low, low, low down on the investment, the recommended investment list globally, and certainly low down on the IMS Investment Index. And we're doing this because we are adding value at origin in the landscape that we work because it is core to our conservation mission. So if we think about what that macro threat is from a conservation perspective in the landscape, it is conversion of these coconut farms to palm oil and then further conversion into forest areas. So if palm oil companies really get ahold, we will see conversion of, say, 5000 coconut plantations and then into the forest areas. So macro conservation threats, palm oil, yes. There's a conservation organization we could protest, we could lobby, and that's important work. But really what Alawan is doing is investing in the landscape, investing in coconut farmers and producing at origin so that our business has a positive economic impact and a positive environmental impact.
And that's really key. That's where we're going to drive the transformative shifts. And then without the forest, without these resources, it's almost like it's a waste of time because there won't be any ecosystem for those birds to exist. So it's very important that they work together. Yes. The idea is that over time, Alawan will be able to provide a sustainable finance stream, a little bit like we talk about with your tourism work. But the unique thing to understand is that Alawan is doing conservation work and it's driving that shift in the landscape from an economic perspective. And that is why business is really important and business aligned with conservation is where we're going to see these shifts. And so that's the model that we are working on. It is not easy doing business in this part of the world.
We've never been to business before and we're doing it in one of the most challenging places on the planet.
Yeah.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Kudos to you. Just like, wow, just the fact that.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: You'Ve taken this massive undertaking on, well, very few people, I'm sure very few people would have the courage or just the gumption to do what you're doing. So maybe you tell me a little bit more, what is it exactly that you're doing? Are you like buying coconut oil from farmers and then producing it and then selling it to a market or replanting? Is it all of the above? So what is it exactly that you do?
[00:33:15] Speaker B: Yeah, so we work with 500 farmers. They're small holder farmers, which means that they have between one and 3 coconut farms. We've supported the farmers with organic certification. And the farmers work with collectors in bringing fresh fallen coconuts to our production facility. Our production facility employs 70 people and they process those coconuts farmed fresh from the brown coconut, the fibers left in the field and they are opening it, treating it, squeezing it, and then we use a centrifugal machine. Our coconut is very high quality and it's raw, so we keep the nutrients in, so it's spun in the centrifuge machine and has a final stage filtration process. So that is all happening out on the island. We have built a fields facility and we sell direct to buyers around the world. So lush Cosmetics is one of our foundational buyers and they've been an absolutely incredible partner. And at the moment, we're setting up a number of distributors globally to support the sales and distribution side of what we're doing. We have been at a relatively small scale and not at a break even point, but we've just scaled up our production and so we're expanding those sales networks at the moment.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Oh, cool. So is this a product that us abroad, I mean, I'm in the United States. I know there's a lot of people in Australia that listen, there's people in the UK, there's everywhere around the world, people are listening right now.
When and how. Can we also maybe directly support you by buying coconut oil through Alawan?
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Yes. So most of our oil is sold B to B to cosmetics, personal care and food producers. And we're really finding that we've got a niche in the cosmetics market. So if anybody here is listening and they'd like to direct source for their cosmetics products or they know anyone that might be interested, that's always of real value for us. We have our heads down doing the work in the area. And so anyone that's got SaaS connections is a huge support. I would love to have a broader reach and have perhaps an aloan brand down the track. But at the moment, as we scale up, our energy is really focused on the farmers, on the work on the island. And so selling in bulk is a better way for us to go so that we can focus our energies on building the business on the ground.
Yeah, that said, we can supply anything from sort of 20 liters to 200 liters. We love working direct with companies and we are always happy for people to share our story and to be sort of involved in understanding exactly what we're doing and being part of the story as we grow. And I'm always happy to connect directly with people.
So yeah, over the coming months, we'll be setting up distribution in the US, in Canada and throughout Europe. So those sorts of opportunities are just around the. Oh, that's huge.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: I'm sure that's so much work for you, just thinking about your day to day setting up distribution around the world. I don't even know what that takes or how you even do that.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: I didn't be there until twelve months ago.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Well, good for you to figure it out.
[00:37:00] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: So I also love to support brands that are supporting conservation work. And you just mentioned Lush. Are there any other brands that are pretty big that we could possibly get our hands on so that we can support you directly, indirectly, if that makes sense.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Lush are hands down incredible and they stand out above all others.
We export to them in the UK, but, yeah, they've really supported us in the early days. They provide upfront finance, which means that we can produce their order, buy the coconuts from the farmers. They've also gone over and above and they're working on a project with us on long tail macaques.
The long tail macaques actually have endangered status recently and it's very interesting that the monkeys are a threat to farmers because the monkeys steal coconuts and so farmers will often come to us and ask for support to kill the coconuts, which is. Sorry, to kill the coconuts. Farmers will come and ask for support to kill the monkeys, which is the last thing that we want to do. So we're working with Lush and our long tailed macaque working group to figure out the best way for us to conserve the monkeys, protect the monkeys, while also ensuring that the farmers have their coconuts, because that's important for the farmers. And that might mean that we lease or set aside some land so that the monkeys have their habitat, or we do specific planting so that they're not taking the coconuts, but there's more attractive food. So we're just doing research at the moment. Yeah. So lush are buying from us and that is definitely the most impactful thing that they can do. I've talked about the impact that the company has and the importance of us being able to purchase from farmers produce in that landscape and avoid palm oil coming in. But they do additional support on conservation as well. And they also supported some initial pilots with us to replant coconuts with these foreholder farmers, and that's a big part of our focus as well.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: That's incredible. Wow. Go lush. I knew that they were like a good brand, but wow, that is incredible. Now they're even becoming involved in protecting an endangered species. That's really cool. Also, again, another business that's doing good work. There's so many of them that exist nowadays. And, yeah, there are a lot of companies that are doing greenwashing and those kinds of things, but there are a lot of companies that really are doing good. And that is a perfect example.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it's transformative, really.
Yeah.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: So let's switch gears a little bit, and I would like to focus on you. It sounds like you are juggling quite a lot between the foundation, ecosystem impact, Alawan and how do you balance that and also being, I'm sure, what's very important to you, a mother? That's a big question in our field, and it's one that I've mauled over my head, too. And I ask every single person that comes on, how do you be a parent and also work on these very strong passions that you have and bring them forward? Both?
[00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't actually have a simple answer to that. And every day is different.
Life definitely changed since being a mother, and being a mom comes first to me. So how it has looked for me is that I have had times where I've stepped out.
I managed to pull myself out of the essential day to day operations at times, and we actually home school our children, so most mornings I am with them. That hasn't always been the case. In the early years, I was really focused on the business. I was away from them a lot, and I really saw that that was starting to impact our family and our children. So around about three years ago, I managed to transition out of the operations, and that was very challenging. So much of who I thought I was and my value in the world was tied to the work that I did. And looking back now, that seems ridiculous, but it was really genuinely a struggle at the time. There's something in me that needed to let go of the work and really, really focus on my children. The children were always my priority, but I wasn't dedicating the time and the relaxed energy and just really holding space for being a mother and what they needed. And the family was at times a bit chaotic, and there wasn't really the peace on a day to day basis that was important for me. So I made the decision to step out to focus on them, and it's really calmed the family. Homeschooling is the most incredible thing, and I would have never, ever thought that was something that I would do. And interestingly, kind of 18 months later, as things have settled, space has opened up and I'm able to come back and be involved in a different way in the company, to come in, perhaps from more of a bird's eye perspective. And I just would really recommend that to anybody. Yeah, it's been a real learning experience.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's incredible. I'm also a very passionate workaholic, really, to hear that. I know how you say it's ridiculous that you had to make that decision, but I can completely empathize.
If I was in your shoes, I don't even know how I would have handled that, too.
Giving up this work that I'm sure you felt was one of the main callings in your life. So to give that up to become a mother, or like you already were a mother, but you know what I mean, to give more of your focus to your children, which, again, I get it.
I don't know, because as I'm looking at my future life, I've had a lot of life shakeups, we'll call them in recent months, and I'm like, what do I even want in the future? And to hear something like that, it's like, okay, do I actually want children one day? And how will I fit that in? Which I know, again, just like you said, that's not the way to look at that, but that's a real question of mine.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: And, yeah, I mean, I can't really even believe I'm even that we're having this conversation. Strange, but it's true. And the way that our world has built up what it means to be of value in this world is that as women, we're participating in meaningful work outside of the home. And as I said, I'm almost embarrassed to say that how hard it was to pull myself out from the business, from the foundation, from work, and be a mom. If I look back now, I can't even believe that that would have been something that was difficult because of this incredible experience that I've had from being an almost full time mom and from homeschooling the children and just being with them day in and day out. And I have loved it. I have adored, just, like, sitting with them and doing their learning and being with them and not having distractions and just being able to go with the flow of the day.
Being relaxed in my nervous system, I think this is really what it is. Being relaxed in my nervous system.
Ask them to be relaxed in their nervous system allows our family to be relaxed in the nervous system of the family. And then the work that we can do in the world can be relaxed as well. And I think that the whole world, our nervous systems, are just, like, totally hyper. And I really, really think that the transformation, the work that we do for our planet is to connect in with the energy of our planet, that relaxed, grounded, nurturing energy of our Earth mother, who really is our mother.
She holds us, and if we can tap into her energy field, which is not this, like, uptight nervous system, but one that does hold itself on the energy of the Earth in its place, I don't know.
It's been transformative in so many ways. And just to have a relaxed nervous system and to bring that to your family, it's changed everything.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: I feel like I need to just come live with you for a while and learn how to get this energy.
I didn't even expect to go down this path, but that is something that I've been struggling with a lot. And just like I mentioned before, too, having some really big life shakeups in my personal life and having to work through those and still keeping these other things that I love so much going. And then you're like, what's enough? That's honestly a question that I haven't been able to answer. What's enough? Like, I have this show, I have my full time job, which is going great. Like, I'm starting to lead trips around the world, and yet it still doesn't feel like enough. And to be completely transparent, I went through a divorce recently from something that was very not good.
It was a very traumatic experience, and it wasn't a normal reason that I think a lot of people talk about, which we don't have to get into all of that, but I really haven't even let myself heal. And I've almost been diving so much into this work, almost as like a cover up, I guess, or like a way to, like, if I focus all of my attention on the work and the stuff that I'm passionate about, then everything else will maybe, hopefully figure itself out. And so I've been trying to work through that myself. And so to hear you, it sounds like the circumstance that you went through was a little different, but maybe the feelings were very similar, and you had to choose putting the work not necessarily aside, but changing your role with the work to become the family member and the happiness that you were actually looking for.
[00:47:49] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: Bill's deep chain.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Right now, I don't have an answer. But, yeah, life was really falling apart. And I actually think that part of our process, this old part of ourselves, needs to break down for this new to emerge. And that's messy.
And we started a foundation and a company at the same time as having children. And we live on this remote island and it wasn't easy.
We've broken and broken and broken and broken over and over again. And so I don't want people to have this image that you're running a company and there's this facade of what it's like. It is hard.
I've talked about having a calm nervous system and yes, I've invested in that by doing nothing. But it's like dying and coming back again. And I'm not a perfect person and I scream at my children and I get angry and these challenges on a daily basis, but it has investing in more of that which really has made the difference. And for me, it was being a mum, prioritizing that time with the children, which don't do, and which, as women these days, it's overdone that women are expected to do everything Daddy, Daddy did. Yeah, but I don't know if women are spending enough time with their children.
And sometimes it's fine for my family it wasn't. And I saw it in my children that there were starting to be challenges. And I really think that my child, my son in particular, was perhaps going down the ADHD medication path and that without bringing him back into the home and into my arms, it would have been a very different trajectory. Of course, I don't know, but it was like it was just being the mum, bringing the children back close to me and just resting in that for as long as was needed for us to come.
And it's really starting to happen that now everybody's like going out into the world again and people are settled and there's this really strong, rested foundation. And men can play that role, women can play that role. But there is that nurturing, mothering role that I think many of us have lost as women. And I didn't realize that I didn't have that or wasn't in touch with that and how rewarding and beautiful that could be and that is. And I'm starting to step back into the work a bit more now. And I love it, I adore it. And there's this aspect of myself that's, like, passionate and on fire and so excited and goes off on it. But I also do really miss those soft days at home. And I would give everything up to be with children and prioritize those then if they need it and if things were, on balance, becoming unsettled again. And that's a constant dance and it's something that we kind of keep an eye on on a daily basis, but it isn't an easy one and I don't have any easy answers. Thank you for sharing your experience and your story. It is interesting. We want to put more in, right? But sometimes we just need to pull out and let space for whatever we need to process for our emotions and for the healing that needs to happen in so many ways. And I see the work that I did before I had children and before I was pushed through these challenges to really process a lot of emotions. And I see how I come to it with a different perspective now, and I'm sure I will continue to evolve and change. But I believe that the conservation work needs us to be calm, for us to really be on the same level of our mother Earth and to be able to speak her language and hear what she has to say and to, I don't know, walk hand in hand with her. I don't know.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Yeah, you're formulating so many of my feelings recently as I've again watched things in my own personal life that went the way they did. And I absolutely love this women empowerment movement that's been happening. And it has been great for women to have more voice, to have more freedom, to do what they want. But at the same time, I feel like there's been a cost. I think there's been a cost to families.
I've also seen firsthand, I think there's been a lot of cost to men in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of men have been kind of neutered.
They don't have the same role anymore. A lot of them don't feel like they have the same, just, like, power or gift to the household to be the supplier of the family, to be the one that really drives the family and supports the family.
Like you said, there's so many broken homes anymore, there's so many divorces. I am a divorce myself, and I just wonder how much of this has been. A lot of the social things that have happened recently, again, there's been a lot of good, but I feel like there needs to be more balance. I see so much bad talk online about men and so many things, and I'm just like, some of the most important people of my life are men.
I wouldn't be where I am without them. Can we please stop bashing 50% of the people?
I think it's part of that. And then also, too, I also think that I personally know so many women, I think that would love to be home with their kids, but they don't feel like they can. They've boss babed too hard and now they're, like, high up in these companies or have all these responsibilities. And I really do think they just want to be home and be a mommy, and I don't think they feel like they can. So your story is very inspirational in that sense. Or your partner is truly your partner. He is doing this all alongside you. And also, you were able to have the space and the freedom to go home and be with your kids, which I'm sure he was very much in support of, too. Those are his children as well. So to hear that whole story and how it happened, that's really inspirational. I think we need more of that out in the world. Be like, it's okay. You can do both. You can still pursue your passion, and you can still be a wonderful mother. You can do both. You can be home and you can support your husband or your partner. Whatever situation somebody has, you can also support them to be the support, to be the head of the household or whatever that needs to be.
I'm so grateful you brought that up, because a lot of it has been brought to my attention as well. Like, in my twenty s, I was just so, like, I need to drive. I need to succeed, I need to prove myself. I need to get the titles, I need to have the degrees, like, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm just like, man, I don't know anymore.
I don't know if this is what I want.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I know if it's what I want, because I deeply know that it's not what our earth needs.
Right?
Thank you for all of.
Yes, yes.
I am very lucky and grateful for my husband, Luke, and for their partnership that we have.
It's not easy, and it's been challenging to manage this dynamic because every day is different and we're managing balance. And I know not everybody has the work relationship also to have that flexibility, but I do think that there's this incredible opportunity that I've had to continue to be involved and to almost continue that mothering role in the organization, but through somebody that really, I don't know. I don't think it would have happened in the way that it has if it wasn't my husband. And it's been really challenging because we have to steal time away. And I'm often frustrated about. Angry about something that I see that is happening in either the foundation or the company. And I have to steal a moment and say YOLo.
But I think that it has really shaped things in a unique way. And that the way that that is playing out in the companies is incredible. Sorry. In the company and in the foundation, it's very unique. And perhaps it's happening more as it would happen in a traditional society. Where maybe the men's out there leading, and the woman's, like, yapping it.
[00:57:09] Speaker A: That sounds terrible.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: And it's not always like that. But it's like I have been able to maintain involvement and influence, particularly with that woman's voice and perspective and intuition.
And Luke has kept the day to day operations running all the times that I've needed to be there with the family. And Luke's a really active dad, too. And we'll often kind of give and take, and he'll be with the kids, and I'll get involved and work that needs to be done. There's no simple lines there. But when you're working and your relationship as an employee is more formal, there's often not those dynamics there. But maybe those are ways that we can reshape the way that we work. And I know that we are moving in that direction. But, yeah, when you're exactly the boss, babe, and you've worked your way up. And your job requires you to be there 80 hours a week, that doesn't work.
Being a parent is a full time job.
So if we respect the wisdom, the intuition, the influence that women can have in the workplace, we need to figure out them not actually being involved.
[00:58:23] Speaker A: Right.
It doesn't work. It doesn't work.
And I totally skipped over this topic. And I am so mad at myself for doing it. Because I don't know which organization. I don't know if it's through the ecosystem impact. Or which one umbrella it falls under. But you have the surf resort. Mahi mahi Surf resort. The sustainable surf resort. Of course. Sustainable tourism is one of the biggest passions of mine. And I don't know how I skipped over that. But please, could you tell me more about that? How does this resort fit into your bigger picture, your bigger mission? And also, can we come visit you? Is that a thing? Please tell me more about Mahimahi.
[00:59:08] Speaker B: Yes. My husband's a passionate surfer.
And, yeah, I like surfing. I did before having the kids. But I haven't really surfed much since having the children. It just ends up being the thing that falls along the wayside. But we set up a surf resort on the island right in front of a surf break. And it's been a great place to host guests. It's a real passion of Luke, but not something that I've been as involved in.
I would love over time for that to be a place where we can host biodiversity conservation trips and where people can come and learn about the work that we're doing with the company and with the foundation. So, Brooke, please.
[00:59:51] Speaker A: Well, you might be talking to the perfect person about that, actually.
We will talk more about that offline, everybody.
That is literally what I do. And as a little spoiler, I'm not quite sure, but one of my incredible conservation tourism operations people that I used to work with, she is one of the best tour designers I've ever met in my life. We used to work really closely together. We have come together on possibly building one of real Odology's first trips. So it might be actually happening for real. I've only been talking about it for two and a half years and it actually might start. So thank you for planting that seed. I will make sure she hears that.
[01:00:38] Speaker B: Amazing. And I think it's almost like a mix between a retreat where there's real sustenance and nurturing, and something I've been doing lately is training up in breath work and getting involved more in music and those sorts of modalities. I've been doing a lot of work around medicinal plants, and that's been really important for processing emotions, calming the nervous system. And I imagine that there's a lot of opportunities to develop these experiences where you're having an opportunity to give back, to learn, and also to rest and reconnect yourself.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: That sounds exactly what I need. After everything I just shared.
[01:01:28] Speaker B: I'm sure a lot of people listening.
[01:01:30] Speaker A: Could use that, too. We all have our trials and tribulations, and everybody remember that whoever you're talking to, they're probably going through something that you can't see. So love everybody.
And so you just gave a little bit of a hint of something that you're working on. What else in the future are you working towards? Again, as we were talking about before we hit the record button, I'm just sitting down with you in a moment in time. It's not like your work is going to stop anytime soon. So what else are you working on? What is the bigger vision for maybe ecosystem impact and Alawan and maybe the resort? What are you doing? What's the goal?
[01:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, for the foreseeable future, the focus really is on the company and on the foundation, but we are still in the guts of it with Alawan, we financially being this remote island, we're raising investments. We're making sure that we deploy that investment effectively. We're still building our team, we need to raise money to be able to replant coconuts and we're setting up a financial structure and working to raise investment around that. So really in the short to medium term Aloan, the focus, everything from the farmers to the production facility, improving our certifications, improving our quality and then with buyers, that will take some time and it needs focus, really.
Just building a business in a remote place is not easy and it needs our time and attention and, yeah, I think things will open up once that settles. I don't know what the time frame is on that. I do imagine that as the day to day operations take less of a focus, then, yeah. The passion for me would be bringing together more of the work that I do sort of at hobby around medicinal plants, some of the breath work and really integrating that more and these different worlds coming together.
Yeah. Who knows?
[01:03:52] Speaker A: Sounds beautiful. And I will definitely be happy to support you in your journey. So I also love to ask this question.
You have so much life experience and you've seen and you've done so much. What is one piece of advice that you would love to share with those listening before they sign off for the day?
[01:04:15] Speaker B: Live from your heart.
Your heart knows. Yeah. Listens.
Quiet yourself enough to be able to hear the voice of your heart.
[01:04:31] Speaker A: That's beautiful. I think I need to put that on as a poster and wake up. Or like a sticky note on my bathroom. Know when you wake up, Brooke? Start your day with that.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: You. You do.
You do. You're quiet enough. That voice knows. Really does. And life will in some way keep pointing that out to you. It's such a beautiful life and it's so beautiful to live on this incredible planet.
[01:05:01] Speaker A: I absolutely agree. So, Jane, you are a phenomenal person and I am so grateful that I met you and I learned from you and that you've taught us so much of your incredible work on the island of Sumatra and the beautiful area that you work in specifically. So how can somebody follow what you're up know? We already know. Everybody go buy a lush product like right now. If you need a bar of soap or some mascara, I don't care what it is, go buy whatever you need. Go get it. But, yeah, how can somebody follow the companies, both organizations, maybe you. If somebody wants to reach out, if somebody wants to go to the surf resort. Yeah. What are all the things?
[01:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So all of the normal places. Aluan is A-L-U-A-N. You'll find us Aluan Coconut on Instagram website Alawan Co.
My name Jane Dunlop. Find me on Instagram.
You're welcome to reach out. I would love to hear from you. And then ecosystem impact, you'll find us at Ecosystem Impact Foundation.
Yeah, please be in touch.
Awesome.
[01:06:13] Speaker A: Oh, we're going to stay in touch for sure, Jane. Awesome. WELl, thanks again for sitting down with me and I cannot wait to share your story with everybody.
[01:06:21] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Brooke. You're a beautiful person and I love what you're doing through this podcast. So thank you. We will talk again soon. I know it.
[01:06:32] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights, and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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