[00:00:00] Speaker A: Being in the digital age, we have all seen wildlife and nature images that moved us to our cores.
The goal of some of these photos is to showcase the biodiversity of our planet, while others have a defined agenda. So what goes into creating these emotive images? And what is photography's role in conservation storytelling?
Welcome to Rewildology, the Nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Well executed, conservation photography goes beyond capturing beautiful images.
When done properly, it sparks curiosity, shifts perspectives, and inspires action around biodiversity and habitat protection. Today's roundtable episode is a deep dive into the realm of conservation photography and how ethical photographers spotlight pressing issues through impactful visual storytelling. Joining me today are four talented photographers from the Canadian Conservation Photographers Collective. Josh Deleen here Chelsea. Xavier Blower, ray Machin and Donna Felidicik, PhD. Together, we discuss ethical photography practices, how to convey complex concepts through images, the power of giving a voice to overlook species AI and conservation media leveraging photography's power for policy change, and the CCPC's most recent campaign, Crossing Paths.
I'm thrilled to explore how photography and science intertwine to drive engagement on environmental issues and how powerful images further conservation beyond what words can express alone.
So grab your cameras, fellow rewildologists, and head into the field with me to discuss ethical conservation photography with Josh, Chelsea, Ray and Donna.
Well, hi, everyone.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: I am so excited to be sitting down with you four amazing people for the show's first roundtable discussion. We are going to have so much fun today about one of my favorite topics, and that is conservation and wildlife photography in the ethical way, in the good way, in the impactful way. So I can't wait to dive deep into this. You're all professionals, you're the best at what you do, and I know you're going to give us so much education and knowledge to walk away from this. But first, let's introduce all of you to people listening. So I will just go around. If you all could say, I'll tell you who to go, because that might get a little confusing. But if you could say your name, where you're based, and your particular photography expertise. So with those kinds of things, I think that'll really set up the picture of what you all do. So I will just go in the circle of my screen.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: So, Ray, could you go first?
[00:03:20] Speaker C: Okay.
I'm a photographer located in Delta, British Columbia.
I got my Bachelor of Science from UBC and chose to focus on conservation biology and ended up with the Painted Turtle program, where we raise turtles to be released into the wild. It's a threatened species, so that's what I'm up to on the day to day. But I've obviously taken an interest in photography, and I like to focus on the smaller creatures like the turtles and the frogs and things like that I don't know if I have an actual area of expertise in photography, but I just kind of gravitate to whatever I can find out there, whatever is in season. So yeah, that's about me.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: And could you say your first and last name really fast?
[00:04:09] Speaker C: Oh, did I not say that? Okay.
My name is Ray Machin.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:04:15] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Nailed it, nailed it. Awesome. Starting strong. Donna, please go too.
[00:04:24] Speaker E: So I'm Dr. Donna Fletchuk. I'm located in northern Alberta Lacklavesh, a small real community a couple hours north of Edmonton. I am really focused on wildlife of the boreal forest in particular in our area, conservation around the woodland caribou, which whose numbers have continued to decline continually despite pretty extensive conservation measures. And so I use a lot of my photography to promote awareness about the woodline caribou and their numbers. I'm also very passionate though about al photography and ethical owl photography and also just really carefully watching their numbers and the even influenza and climate change and how it's impacting al populations in the northern part of Canada.
[00:05:11] Speaker D: Beautiful.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Fantastic work. All right, Josh, you're up.
[00:05:15] Speaker F: Hi Brooke, and thank you for having us. My name is Josh Deleen here. I'm a conservation photographer based in Sioux on Vancouver Island. In British Columbia? I've been a photographer for about five and a half years now and I really try to develop my skills in a number of different areas. My focus is on journalism aspect of conservation photography, so I want to be able to try and tell the story, the complete story of conservation issues. So I'm trying to practice not just wildlife and nature photography, but also portrait and event and so on so that I can learn those skills to better convey the message.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Beautiful.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: And last but not least, Chelsea.
[00:05:58] Speaker D: Please go. My name is Chelsea Xavier Blower and I am a cinematographer and camera assistant video editor and obviously photographer too, based in Vancouver.
I think I kind of gear more towards the video side of things these days and I particularly am interested in specialized but have a fondness for the stories of the human and wildlife intersections. And so I like to find those kind of avenues of stories and shoot video. But obviously I also love and will always hold a passion for photography. And like Ray, I kind of just go where the things are these days.
That's awesome.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah. To me there's definitely a strong overlap between the two. I think a lot of things that go for one also apply to the other. So on that note, Josh, I want to ask you this first question and I kind of want to start high level here so that we all know we're talking about the same thing to you. What is conservation photography and how is it different from other forms of photography, even like closely related genres like wildlife photography? What makes it different?
[00:07:12] Speaker F: So I tend to think of conservation photography as a genre in which you are using your photography to promote conservation awareness of issues. So it's not specific to one type of photography. As I mentioned earlier, it could be anything from event and portrait and whatnot it's really the story behind the issues.
Oftentimes that might be wildlife photography, but not necessarily.
Certainly landscape. On Vancouver Island. One of the key conservation issues of concern is the old growth forest. So that might lead you into landscape photography in that respect. But throughout, I think the common theme throughout all of it is that, again, you're using your photography to promote conservation and you're doing it in an ethical way, which really leads into the discussion that we're having today.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Awesome. Okay, Chelsea, so you talked a lot about wildlife filmmaking, and I actually really want to ask you this question. So with the rise of wildlife filmmaking and the drive to capture more and more captivating shots, especially on social media, I've definitely seen this a lot. What steps do you take to ensure the welfare and safety of the animals? You photograph film while still getting those desired shots. So in other words, how do you maintain ethical wildlife photography practices in your.
[00:08:43] Speaker D: Work while getting cool? A lot of times where I'm ending up right now, I get opportunity to go in kind of remote areas or places where people don't usually go. So at this point, I was in Brazil shooting for a documentary, different locations. And all the times that we've been there, we've had guys and fixers and incredibly knowledgeable people with us. And I think one of the main important things that people show us, remember, is a if you obviously aren't in a place where you can hire professional guides who have spent most of their lives or careers understanding and studying these animals and aware of them is for you to take the time to also study that a little bit in your own for yourself, whether that be just observing them.
Don't go in with the mindset you're going to go take a picture, just kind of like respect them, watch them, or do your research online studies or just behavioral things. You notice them. Because the more you do that, the more obviously you are aware of when they're uncomfortable, when you're getting too close.
But yeah, when you do have the opportunity to get guides or to have guides listen to them, they're there for a reason, obviously do your research and to make sure you're getting guides because professional good guides that have good intentions and ethical regulations that they follow too, and be respectful of it. And I think sometimes you have to accept that you're not going to get a shot because you're interrupting them or because set that boundary for yourself as well as the animals and sacrifice photos sometimes for the well being of what you're shooting. Because at the end of the day, they might not be there for a long time. If everyone's out there with photos and not caring about where they're at, And I think also the struggle of always trying to sharing your location, where you are because you want to raise awareness of these places and where you're going and these animals. But you don't want to then bombard those places with people that then go, which sometimes they don't really actually care about where they are. They just want that instagram shot. So just recognizing when you go to places like the vulnerability that it can have and thinking about do I really want 1000 people to go to this spot versus this is well managed, this is managed by parks or by people that they can then have that responsibility. Not responsibility, but monitor that and manage that.
Did I answer.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: It was great? No, I would love an example. So I was just in Brazil. So let's say that we're there together and you are filming a particular behavior. How exactly would you approach that? We're getting into the boat if this is the water based version, if we're like in the pants and I or something where I was, or it could be land based, but I guess for you, what are you paying attention to? How do you make sure that your actions stay in the ethical realm? And when do you know if that line is being drawn or getting close.
[00:11:53] Speaker D: To okay, without giving two specific examples, I think monitoring them, we're filming a certain thing.
Okay, we're in the pendulum. For example, you just said you were there too. I'm assuming you're filming Jagris since that's what the main kind of thing is there.
Just watch their behavior. Like for example, if they're hunting and you notice behaviors that suddenly change, that stuff suddenly shift, it gets agitated, it's looking at you, aware that you're there. But then if it continues to do what it's doing, normally that's one thing. But if it looks at you and you can see that, it's because again, they're all animals. You have that basic sense of like oh, I don't think that animal is comfortable right now. It's acting different than it was a second ago. Just like watching those little things. And also, I know that it's to do with the particular animal itself, but being aware of your surroundings and where you are and obviously where you're stepping, where your boat's going and the animals around you. A lot of the times, certain areas like listening to bird calls would like a good indication of what's around you and monkey calls and stuff like that. So just aware of where you are, the environment that you're in, and making sure that you're not altering certain behaviors of the things that you're looking at. And again, that comes with practice of watching them and your guides. And this is where the guides come in really handy, is listening to them because they teach you, they tell you what's happening. Oftentimes they know a lot of these animals that they're watching individually sometimes, and they can tell you, like, I think we're too close, we need to get back a little bit, let it do its thing.
And yeah, being aware of what you're recording and who you're with and your research that you hopefully did before you.
[00:13:47] Speaker C: Went there, chelsea, who was in charge of holding up the stake and going.
[00:13:55] Speaker E: I will add to that, though, you're not always guided, though. And if you have guides, it's great. Grizzlies. Jaguars, africa. Frequently you have to go with a guide. And I think that's why it's critically important that you understand the wildlife behaviors. I see lots of folks boat that don't understand the animal, but they're photographing them, and the animal is giving them all sorts of warning signs that they're not happy.
Most people don't realize that deer actually can make a sound when they're upset. People think of deer as being a really quiet animal, but they actually make quite the snorting noise when they're upset and give warning calls and things like that. So I think it's really important that if you're going to go out and want to really be involved in conservation, wildlife photography, that you're studying the animals before you're going out in the field to photograph them, that you've done your kind of research and your homework.
Because if it's your first time encountering that animal and you don't understand behaviors and there's no guide there to tell you, you can be causing the animal a lot of undue stress unnecessarily if you don't understand the behaviors.
[00:14:56] Speaker D: Yeah. And keep distance. I think so many places you're at, they have clear indications of distances. You should be like polar bears and Churchill and Gracias and animals and Yellowstone, for example. And there's always, most of the time, set regulations of the distance and respect that it's there for a reason, for their animal safety and obviously for your safety. And that should always be a priority, too.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Yes. I think that the topic of ethical wildlife photography just isn't mentioned enough, because we see these beautiful photos and it's like, what's the line of getting that shot versus doing something that isn't what we would describe as ethical baiting or any kind of stuff? And of course, the question of baiting gets into a whole different discussion as well, whether or not that's ethical. And what do you do if you're going to a country where that is how they that's like a tourist attraction, what do you do? Do you still go? What happens when you show up and it's a bait station and you're like, crap, I'm already here? Those dilemmas for us as conservationists, first and foremost, do I still want to be here? Do I want to go? Or one of the things that I always have an issue with, and sometimes it's a cultural thing, too, just trying to get the animal to look for the photo, like a guide that's doing that kind of stuff. Even like a pretty reputable guide in places I've been. And I'm just, like, stop. What are you doing? Stop.
Those kinds of noises and stuff. And so I wish it was just talked about more like let animals be animals.
The shot itself is beautiful enough. You're there.
That's why I really wanted to bring this question up about the ethical wildlife photography, because, again, you can't show a true conservation photo story unless you're actually taking photos of the thing that is as it is, right? So, yeah. Did anyone else have anything about ethical wildlife photography?
[00:16:59] Speaker F: I think I might add to that when you talk about I don't have a lot of experience photographing internationally, but I can certainly speak to photographing locally. And I think one of the things that you need to be comfortable with doing is walking away. Sometimes environments, situations are dynamic. They can change. You may approach a situation and you observe it as it presents when you first arrive, but it could change over time. So just at a local level, you might show up at a location and find there is a larger group of people surrounding the animal. That's not ideal for the animal's benefit. Too many people can cause it undue stress, disrupt its natural behaviors, that sort of thing. So I think sometimes it's best to walk away. Or if you're there shooting and a bunch of people show up, again, same situation.
If you're seeing those signs that the animal is becoming uncomfortable, that it's causing stress, don't be afraid to leave and don't be afraid to tell people. That's why, you're know, you might not want to get into a know, confrontation with other photographers, but you can certainly let people know that's why you're.
[00:18:11] Speaker E: Oh.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Have you done that before? Have you been a good this is not a good situation. I'm out. Have you guys been can I hear the stories? I want to hear?
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Josh throws down.
[00:18:20] Speaker E: He's a big talk.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Oh, really? Do you throw some right hooks?
[00:18:26] Speaker E: What do you do?
[00:18:27] Speaker F: No, we've actually had this discussion amongst ourselves.
We don't do the name and shame approach. We certainly don't do that online. It's really more leading by example.
It's more about, like I say, letting people know. And I've had those conversations with other photographers and said, I avoid this area because I've noticed that it's become too busy, there's too many people there, and I don't want to cause that. So it's really more about having that discussion and raising awareness through conversation. I think that in the long run, is beneficial.
My examples aren't they're not wild and crazy.
It didn't break out into a fight, but certainly I've left when I saw too many photographers. I mean, there are popular local spots, and social media is really feeding into that because people unfortunately, there are some people who will post the location. And once that becomes common knowledge, it draws more and more people to it, which, as Chelsea mentioned, is one of the reasons why it's really important not to name a specific location to give those animals the opportunity to be wild.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Donna, I saw you turn on your mic.
I'm sure you have stories.
[00:19:52] Speaker E: What are you know, Jasper during rot season has got to be one of the worst places to see terrible wildlife photography behavior.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:20:00] Speaker E: Yeah, you can have 50, 60 people in a field watching two or three bull elk easily and stressing the elk significantly, like getting too close.
I've seen the elk charge numerous photographers when I've been there. I can't tell you the amount of times I've left places in Jasper and just said I don't care going somewhere else. This is craziness. But I still keep going back because I live in Alberta. It is a really great place to get elk photos. Right. But I try to find places where there's nobody at. I go off some really beaten paths and if I come in an area and there's a lot of photographers there, I generally leave. Right. I don't stick around because people just yeah, silliness sometimes and then the other one story I did want to tell though, which and again, it goes to understanding behavior but it's easy enough to see when an elk's getting upset or loose is getting upset. I watched not too long ago a person chase a poor turtle around a field and the turtle had nowhere to go.
And Ray is probably like heart is probably breaking.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: That wasn't me, Donna.
[00:21:18] Speaker E: No, but we get about two or 3ft in front of the turtle, lay down and click click until you see the turtle start to change direction like go 90 degrees the other way, get up, get ready for Mcdain. Turtle would try to move, get up, get right in front of again it was like, oh my gosh, the poor turtle. Let the poor thing alone.
It was just bad.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Have you ever seen that with owls? I know that you are a pro at owl photography and owls I don't.
[00:21:47] Speaker E: Photograph owls of anybody and I don't tell them every owl photo I've ever taken. I've been by up I'm up in northern not like I'm not in an urban center, definitely like you getting again in Alberta, Calgary and Edmonton and great horns in the city and some you will know when all of a sudden 30 people are there because it's on social media where I live. I live in the country and I go out and find owls in the country. It's usually just me and the owls.
Owls have very good tells when they're not happy with you and the minute that they display any of those, I leave them alone.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: All right, does anyone else have anything else about ethical photography before I move on?
[00:22:32] Speaker F: Yeah, I think I want to add one more thing to it.
I think it's important to note that it's an evolving field, that information continues to come out and that what we think today might be a reasonable practice. We may learn in the future that it's something that needs to change. And that's happened over the course of my brief career in photography.
Using calls for birds, particularly owls, is now discouraged. And that was fairly common and still is amongst quite a few people. But the Audubon Society came up with a really good article with a number of reasons why it's discouraged. Now I think there are situations and again, we've had these discussions amongst ourselves where you may want to review something on a species by species basis. There might be mitigating circumstances, it might be in relation if you're out with a research team, for example, if it's scientific based work, there may be justifications for certain actions that might not otherwise be considered reasonable. So, I mean, there is gray area for sure, but I think it's just good to be aware, generally speaking, of best practices and the most recent information that I guess takes the animals welfare first.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: It's really interesting that you bring that up because again, this goes back to my previous comment about even though some guides are great and a lot of international destinations I've been to, they'll use bird calls. Like I was in Costa Rica and Brazil and a lot of places. And just like you said, it's like a cultural thing where I'm just like I'm very much like, do not disturb their behavior.
Just us being here is enough of a disturbance. I don't want that extra level of changing whatever their behavior was. And just like you said, it seems to take a while to reach all of the conservation community around the world because these were respected guides, they were amazing and super knowledgeable. But they got out the Merlin app and they were calling birds.
And then me, I guess as a trip leader, you were in this weird spot too, because I didn't want my guide to look bad because I wanted them to put their phone away like stop and then at the same time the guests are going to get yeah, that's an interesting place to be in as well. I don't want to reprimand them for guiding the way they've always guided, but I would prefer there not to be any interference with their animals behavior. So that's a personal thing that I need to figure out myself, but a very real thing. And so I'm really glad that you brought that up, especially bird calls.
[00:25:20] Speaker E: Well, I think when you get into other places, especially outside of North America, it just takes a lot of change behavior. You can look know you're talking Brazil. And so an example know I was there recently too. And so where so much of the rainforest now is being cleared there for large ranches and farmers. Those exact same large ranches and farmers are now the ones that are trying to bring a lot of it back in because it's more lucrative for them to go into tourism, right, and to use their lodges as places for tourists to come and stay. But the tourists want to see the wildlife, and the only way you're going to get that wildlife back is to restore the habitat. And so it's going to take a while, for sure. I mean, those guides, our guide was an excellent bird caller, but by whistle, he could make so many bird call sounds, it was unbelievable. Right, but then he takes a lot of clients, like to go with him because he can call a lot of birds. Right?
Well, not so much financially lucrative, but I mean, for him to even be able to support his family and stuff, where he lives and stuff, he has to get the clients right. And so it's tough because it's really different circumstances there. And I think it's time. I think it takes time.
Over time, although they'll lag behind, I think they will catch up.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:58] Speaker D: Of where you are. I think that was also I wanted to make sure, too, like the whole guiding thing, recognizing that we are privileged enough to go to these places and mostly have the guides, but recognizing that people can't do that. But there are also ways that they can do themselves and do their own research and their own ethics and ways that they can shoot too.
Yeah, I wanted to acknowledge that, too.
White girl going to take photos.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Definitely.
[00:27:36] Speaker D: That is very good point, Donna.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
So let's make a little bit of a shift. So, Ray, it sounds like you and I have a similar background coming from the conservation biology world and then being in the conservation sphere and using photography as a tool. So I would love to talk about that a little bit more. And as you've mentioned, thankfully you told all of us that you love to tell the story of wildlife that's commonly left out of the conversation. So where do you feel photography fills that role, conservation or wildlife photography? And how can we leverage art to give voices to those that are commonly left out of the spotlight?
[00:28:21] Speaker C: Well, that's a good question.
So I've just basically followed what I've been interested in, really, and meeting people like inside the collective and folks and biologists within, say, the painted turtle program, it becomes pretty clear where the need needs to be focused on. So if I want to get the message out about turtles, it's kind of an obvious solution in a way where I'm going to try to prioritize taking photos of, say, the turtles. I work with their habitats. And back to what Josh was talking about with definitions of conservation. Photography is not just make it like a pretty photo in a marketing sense, but try to tell the story. Right. So show the individual, show the subject being photographed. Try to make it artful, if you can, because it's fun to do that. And it's always good to challenge yourself, but also tell the story. Right. So show their habitat. Show the amazing people that are on the ground working to restore habitat technicians in labs. We have an amazing vet in Maple Ridge that's pretty much the only guy that we know that can help, specifically reptiles. Right. And we've brought so many turtles out to him and his crew out there, and that's always something awesome to include in the story. So I think if you're focusing on lesser known subjects, really go all in and show the full spectrum of the whole story. Right. And again, thankfully, meeting people like at the CCPC, they can actually put a spotlight on the work that I can put out and share it with people that are only used to seeing, like, moose and polar bears.
[00:30:19] Speaker D: Sorry.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: No, that was not a ramble at all. That was fantastic. You could continue rambling.
[00:30:26] Speaker C: That was a ramble.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: That was great.
Is there a secret sauce that you have found? Because I just know that I'm personally partial to mammals and predators. I just am. It's just me. So how can let's say somebody like me or somebody who's not in the animal world at all, they just like dogs.
We make somebody that just loves dogs. Care about these rescued turtles. Are there any secrets that you have found or I know you're talking about more of the story, but is there anything specific that you have found that really gravitates with people or resonates with people?
[00:31:06] Speaker C: I found, especially with the turtles, it can kind of be a little easier to score those affectionate points when you're working with the threatened species, right. So they face a variety of habitat challenges and things like that. So, again, focusing on that story and just pointing them out, just honestly getting out those photos and those stories is I'll often get comments being like, I didn't know we had turtles in BC.
Just putting out the fact that they're around. And it really is an underrepresentation. People don't even know. They sometimes assume you're at the zoo taking these photos.
I just try to focus on those things that you can find under the leaves if you can. Right. It's fun in its own way. A lot of us will look to the trees to find those cool owls and stuff, but there's so much more. Right, and these things are so just they're so close to you. They could be right next to you on a trail or under a log. Right.
And another amazing thing about animals like amphibians and reptiles is they're amazing bioindicators so they can show the health of a local ecosystem. They can show that your local park is thriving. If you're finding dead animals like that, you're finding dead fish things. Like that in creeks. That could be the first indication that something is really wrong in that area.
[00:32:36] Speaker F: Right.
[00:32:36] Speaker C: So they provide us intrinsic value, but they also provide us with warning signs that affect all of us.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that was fantastic.
I also kind of want to open that same question to all of you. Do you have a particular story or a project or a photo or something where you were trying to convince the public to care about this thing that the public probably doesn't either know about or doesn't care about? Is there anything like that that comes to mind? And what was your process? And I guess maybe what was the end result? And yeah, I would love to hear the whole thing.
[00:33:18] Speaker F: I can jump in on that.
So I have a particular love of pinipeds. pinipeds being seals, sea lions, I've always had an affection for them. But since moving to the coast, I've discovered that there's a significant number of the local population that harbors some animosity towards them, and it's largely based on misconceptions and myths around those animals. So in this area, there's a lot of recreational and sport fishermen as well as commercial fishermen. And the belief amongst them is that pinipeds are largely responsible for the decline of salmon in the area. And of course, that impacts either their livelihoods or their recreation. So as I say, they hold the sandomosity. But the reality is the pinipeds did recover over quite a few years from near extermination on the west coast of North America. So they had been hunted to near extinction, and only after protections were put in place did their numbers recover. But it happened to coincide at a time when salmon populations were declining. So people made that anecdotal assumption, that pinipeds were predominantly responsible for the decline of salmon. Unfortunately, it's not true. And while pinipeds do eat salmon, harbor seals, for example, it's not the primary source of their diet. They tend to eat actually smaller fish for the most part. It's only around the times when, typically in the spawning season, when there are more abundant salmon populations in the area, that seals will chase them. Sea lions may be a different story, but again, overall, there is this belief that pinipeds are bringing about the downfall of salmon. So I've spent quite a bit of time in conversation, but also through my photography, trying to raise awareness. And I first had to go and learn, make sure that I wasn't making an assumption myself that pinipeds aren't actually the cause, and that there are a number of causes for salmon decline. Everything from a chemical in tires that was discovered by University of Washington state that one single chemical was causing a significant decline in, I believe, the birth rate, I want to say, of salmon to factors like overfishing or global warming or spawning. Habitat degradation is a real issue. So there's a number of different factors as well as loss of feeder stock species like Anchovy and hernia in particular. So these sources of food for salmon have been depleted. So salmon populations truly are suffering. So I have to spend all this time trying to convince people it's not the seals and sea line, not the pinnapeds, and the problem is that people will actively target and kill them.
Commercial fishermen, there have been a number of examples where they have found bodies or around fish farms, aquatic fish farms. Again, they are naturally attracted to areas, concentrated areas of fish. So not surprisingly, they're going to be drawn into those areas, in some cases, actually get right into the pens. But, yeah, they are actively targeted. So that subject for me is close to my heart and I do everything I can, whenever I can to try and change minds.
[00:37:02] Speaker B: Have you had a chance of talking to any of these fishermen directly or the local community? And were they receptive or not?
[00:37:12] Speaker F: Yeah, I mean, they listen.
I hope over time that information becomes more common knowledge. I mean, part of my concern is that there have been repeated calls for a cull of pinipeds. On the West Coast, there are groups that are actively seeking to allow that, which I'm trying to do my little part to discourage and dissuade from that ever proceeding. But, yeah, at a local level, certainly I've had conversations with a number of fishermen and they're sometimes resistant, but I think when I provide enough evidence, generally speaking, they start to change their opinion.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Donna, do you want to go you.
[00:37:57] Speaker E: Turn on your approach. The exact same thing josh experiences I experience here with different species, but I approach it a little bit of a different know. Coyotes are viewed as the bane of everyone's existence.
If you live anywhere, we're all right coyotes.
Everyone will contend their calves were killed in the spring by the coyotes. And you have chickens if you have whatever right or pigs or whatever.
And coyotes don't really account for a lot of livestock mortality, but they're accused of it quite heavily where I live at, and they're viewed as a nuisance. They can be shot on site. As Kenna Fox as Kenna Black Bear They're all viewed as nuisance animals here. Well, deer can't be shot on site, but I can't tell you the amount of people that think deer are a nuisance here.
So what I really try to do is show that animal's vulnerability in my photography. And so coyotes, foxes are viewed as being very predatory here, but they're very vulnerable. And so if you show a coyote mother with her three kits in a close moment, if you show a fox back, like fox kid or something, we have a local photography page, like, just for my community. It's a really small community, but I'll post these photos and then I can't tell you the amount of people that come up and go, oh, that fox is just so cute. And then the next time they pick up that gun, are you going to shoot that cute fox?
Because I'm hoping that photo puts a lasting impression in their mind and they think twice about it, because we talked before about my passion for the boreal forest, but where I live, it's just so taken for granted. All the wildlife that are here, it's just so taken for granted. And so much of it is viewed as a nuisance if it gets in the way, like Joss was saying, of recreation, of industry, of whatever. Right?
And so I try to tell their story in a way that most people don't perceive them through imagery, so that people think twice before they decide that they need to be eradicated. For whatever reason, they think they need to be eradicated.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: That's fantastic. We need more of that, especially for our nuisance predators in North America. I feel the exact same way.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: I recently moved back to my home state of Ohio, and I think that they're going at least I was told of this. I need to look up the recent that they might actually pass a bobcast season. I was like, what are you talking about? We don't have any predators as it is, and we might be having an open bobcat season. Shut up.
[00:40:48] Speaker E: I just saw a post somewhere about a bobcat competition where you shoot them and bring them in and win prizes for bobcats down in the States somewhere. Somebody had just posted that. I could not believe it. Yeah, so I know they have them here for coyotes. The same thing, right?
They have those types of contests for coyotes. Right.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: Go ahead, everybody.
[00:41:13] Speaker D: It's like a little fun fact, but I haven't done my own research in this, but one of my colleagues at work was reading a book. I want to remember the name of the book, but it was like saying that actually the way that the pack dynamics of coyotes. It's not at all like the wolves. And when actually, when you kill a coyote, they're like, oh, we got to make more of them. So they actually end up trying to make more. So it's just like the most opposite strategy of what they're trying to do. And yeah, you can listen to the scientists once again.
[00:41:43] Speaker E: Anyway, and most people don't understand coyote behavior. Like a lot of people think coyotes are solitary and they're not. Their mate is usually within calling distance all the time, even when they don't have pups on the ground. And when they're not in mating season, they're always in proximity and they stay together. Right. And they raise their families, and frequently even the younger pups from the previous year will stay, much like wolves do and help raise the pups the next year and stuff, too. Right.
They're really misunderstood. Right?
And when you take out in addition to what Chelsea was saying about that, they're going to try to populate even more. But the loss to that family unit, right. People don't realize I mean, people know it with wolves, but they don't view coyotes that way at all. Right. But they are quite connected to the other coyotes in the region. Right. So they're not lone, solitary animals that.
[00:42:40] Speaker D: People yapping at each other. They're like, who's there? And they all call in a little laughing sounds. And I'm like, oh, we're missing Bob. Where is he?
If you kill them, you're just completely messing up that dynamic, which you don't even know much about.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: I bet your coworker was either reading Coyote America or American Serengeti by Dan Flores. It's probably the books that they were reading.
[00:43:06] Speaker D: It was like blue cover. Nothing that makes any difference, like a wolf on it or, like I don't even know.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it's probably Coyote America. All my books are packed up right now. I'm actually getting ready to move. But it's probably that book that they were reading. Yes. It's incredible behavior. It's like the one predator that the European settlers could not get rid of. And actually, because of their behavior, it is now way more spread out than it was before.
It was not far east.
It was a lot of part where the coyote is now. It was not previously, but because we tried to kill it, we actually spread it. So good on you, coyote.
[00:43:48] Speaker D: The ecosystems, they are doing okay.
[00:43:55] Speaker E: Was it looney Tunes? River, help with Wiley Coyote. He was always so villainized, that poor guy.
He should have won at least once or twice.
I always was cheering for him.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Always portrayed as stupid, which they're incredibly cunning and very intelligent. Yeah. And never can get a meal or food. Yeah.
[00:44:18] Speaker D: That's lovely.
[00:44:20] Speaker E: He was cunning, but it always backfired on him. Right.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: Literally.
[00:44:26] Speaker C: He really tried a lot, too. He's not just working with his naturally. He's rigging dynamite and big metal handles, and poor guy can catch a break.
[00:44:40] Speaker F: He's industrious.
[00:44:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
I think it's because the other outcome, if he won, is just a grizzly murder of a small roadrunner, which wasn't the greatest thing to sell to kids, but I don't know.
[00:44:55] Speaker E: Well, his, like, scorched and tired brownie coming out on a rock.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: Yes. Fantastic. So, Donna, I definitely want to bring this next one to you. So clearly, from this whole conversation, it's so obvious that you're a total expert in this know and observing wildlife and knowing animal encounters and behaviors and if they're comfortable or not. So I kind of want to get back to the basics here. How did you develop this skill? How did you hone the craft of being in the field, photography and wildlife? Are there secrets? Or how can we follow in your footsteps, essentially to do this the right way?
[00:45:43] Speaker E: Well, so I'm a researcher by training, and so I don't kind of just Google.
I go to scientific journals a lot and I don't know. The average person wants to read through a lot of scientific journals, but when I'm really interested in a species like woodland caribou, for example, the great growls or whatever, I spend the time to dig into the research on that animal to really understand them.
There's some great just reference books that are out there, like behaviors of North American Wildlife behaviors I think it's called, or something, which is a great just intro. But if I really want to understand, like great gray owls, for example, I reached out to some researchers whose whole body of research, 20 or 30 years has been great gray owls to really understand what I was seeing, where I was at, and some of the concerns I had, right?
So I say I spend the time doing my homework is really important. And then you got to spend the time in the field. You have to just sit and listen. And sometimes the best thing to do is not even have your camera with you and just sit and observe, right? When you have your camera, your field of view goes from this. My hands are out wide because I know this is audio to really narrow because all you see is through your viewfinder and you're not aware of what's happening to the left or to the right or behind you or over here, and you don't know what that animal is reacting to or seeing or sensing or whatever. So I tell folks the best thing to do is to actually spend the time in the field long before they take a camera out there with them and just sit and be quiet, right? Just sit and listen. And that's not for two minutes. That's like for 2 hours, the whole day under a tree and just watch, right?
Folks are always in such a hurry.
I can't tell you the number of photographers I see that will come up to something. Oh, there's a bull moose. Click, click, jump in, the car gone, right? It's just like, okay, but watch the moose for a half an hour, 45 minutes or an hour and see what he's doing and see where he goes and see how he's interacting and whatever.
One of the reasons when I had done a session on ethco al, photography, and one of the reasons I'm able to get good owl shots is because I know their behaviors, though, and I know where they're going to go, you know where they're moving to. But you have to watch them a long time to understand that owls usually don't double back. They kind of work one direction. At least the great grays work one direction down a field, right? They don't usually go down, come back, go down, come back. They work a field in one direction, they take off with the wind, right? They land with the wind, those types of things. And so if you know that you can also be in positions in the field. So you're not running around like a lunatic trying to get the shot because you kind of know where they're going to be at and how to get in front of them and know where they're going to go. And if you know the area well enough, like for moose, for example, like where we're at right now, moose, red sun. I can literally walk out my door, and I can see a moose in two minutes right now. But I also know the trails they're going to take. Right. So I know where the trail is off that field right there's three places they're going to exit that field at. So I'm not going to go, and I'll go wait to where I know where the moose is going to come off the field at and wait there for an hour for the moose to come off the field. Right. So it's patience, observation, and it's research, I would say are the big things.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so good. And I know that you travel to.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: And we've touched on this a little.
[00:49:22] Speaker B: Bit, but I would also like to hear how you approach if it's any different or for an international destination that you haven't been to before and if it's one that you may never go to again. So there is that heightened pressure to get that shot or whatever it might be, or tell that certain story. So what is your approach in those situations?
[00:49:46] Speaker E: So, again, it's still research, right? So I was just in Brazil, like you were, and so, obviously, understanding the jaguar is really important. But it's also, I think, to what Chelsea was saying, it's all about the guide. When you get in those areas, right, you have to have guides that are really good guides that really understand the animal's behavior and can educate you in the field. It doesn't matter how much I read about the jaguar. I hadn't spent any time in the field with the, and it was unnerving. I actually wrote a post about just how unnerving it is because I said, I would rather be nose to nose of a grizzly than nose to nose of a jaguar because I can probably predict the grizzly's behavior. I had no idea how the jaguar was going to behave, though. Right, so you're on the pantinell. So when you're floating down the real narrow term, that jaguar could literally wanted to jump on your boat. I'm not feeling too comfortable back there because I don't know jaguar behavior. But interesting enough, if you go to the pantinell, you'll get in places where there's 1015 boats and 50, 60 people watching a jaguar. And we were on this jaguar the one time, and it was just laying under the tree, 38 degree weather. It's tired. It's just laying there, sleep, sleep, sleep. And then it gets up. So everyone's old. All the cameras and ten boats get up. It was click, click, comes down to the edge of the water and it's just sitting there. And so then you hear Bob and sue over here talking and Bill and Becky over here talking. Everyone's just talking and I'm just watching this cat. And cats are still cats. You could see the cat, you could see it haunches and getting tense and stuff or whatever, and everyone's talk, talk, and that cat just went boom and just sleeped. I'm the only one who got the shot because I at least understood the cat's getting ready to pounce. Even though it's a jaguar, it's still getting ready to pounce and still acts like a cat. And so I think, too, just sometimes bringing your knowledge of other species that are similar to it and just paying attention to it. Right. So it's the other thing too. But yeah, lots of research, lots of time in the field.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. Which again, yeah, being in the field, you can't really replace that knowledge.
Yeah, like I said, cat's, a cat is a cat, which I've said so many times and I've seen many species around the world and I'm like, cat is a cat is cat.
Obviously there are important differences, but it is amazing the similarities.
Watching a lion sleep or hunt in the Serengeti is how similar it is to the same behavior of the jaguars and it's just in the pants. And now it's amazing.
[00:52:31] Speaker E: I don't know how many cats like to swim, but the jaguars.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: Right, absolutely.
So this next question I wanted to just to throw to all of you, and whoever wants to answer it can if you have a strong opinion, or you don't. So right now AI is all the rage. Everything is AI. AI won't go away. Well, it's not going to go away, but now it's really starting to infiltrate the visual media know, now it's getting to the point where we don't even know if something we're seeing on Instagram was made or enhanced by AI or whatever. So do any of you have a strong opinion on this?
Does AI fit into conservation photography's mission or does it not? What do you all think?
[00:53:26] Speaker F: I'll jump in there.
So I think with any photography think transparency is key, particularly as it relates to conservation photography.
I don't like the idea of deliberately manipulating situations and that's something that we're mindful of in our own photography.
It's important that what you show is accurately portraying the reality, whether it's an animal or for nature, natural environment, habitat, that sort of thing. So I'm not particularly fond in that respect. If for some reason you were to use an AI image to demonstrate a point, then I think what you need to do is be transparent and say the point that I'm trying to make here is this. This is an AI image, AI generated image.
But yeah, I think transparency is really key to all of it.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: Have any of the rest of you encountered AI in your line of work or had any issues with it or any sort of future thing, or if you nerded out on AI tech or something.
I'm very indifferent to this right now because it's still so early to me. But I know that some people have really strong opinions and so that's why I wanted to ask all of you.
[00:54:49] Speaker C: I think that's a bit of an anxious topic as well. I think a lot of us don't even know in some cases we could have come across some very manipulated images and these programs are getting very good.
But I think back to what Josh said, especially in conservation photography, transparency is the most important thing, especially if you want to put out a message or a campaign or anything like that that is demonstrating there's an issue with this habitat or this wildlife. And it turns out that if the images you put out there to show the issue are totally from a program and not even real, that could probably really hurt your cause.
In instances of competitions too, and things like when you want to demonstrate an honest situation that it seems like you either have to not use something like that or be very honest about it because that could really hurt your cause more than help it, honestly.
[00:55:58] Speaker E: And I think it can hurt the credibility of the photographer. But the flip side of it is AI is not going away.
It's part of our culture now.
And I think one of the things is not so much should you or shouldn't you, but how? Right? I think the question is going to be more how than should you or shouldn't you, like how should it be used and when should be used? Kind of what Josh was talking to. I don't know that people are there yet, obviously. It's kind of like I'm in the education field, chat GBT. It's a big thing on student papers and stuff. The big faculty lose their mind on that, but it's not going anywhere. Somebody gave me the analogy of the one day it's kind of like the calculator in math. Like it didn't go away. We just learned how to incorporate it in mathematics. Right. So how do you incorporate AI into what we do?
I think though, eventually there'll be opportunities to use in a ways where it's fully disclosed that this is generated by, but to tell a story that you can otherwise tell without harming the animal to get that story right. So if us going into a certain spot is really impactful on the habitat of that animal, like sometimes just walking on things or whatever can be really devastating to small microorganisms fungi and stuff or whatever from microcosms and things like that. Then I think the way you tell the story is through AI, but you say that it's AI generated and so I think it can help in the future. But I think we just have to get past that it's here first and then really have some really conversations in the profession about what does that mean and how do we use in a way that's effective and impactful and not deceiving and misleading. Right, I think is where the conversation eventually needs to move to.
[00:57:52] Speaker F: I think it's important to note too, that AI isn't limited, obviously, to image generation, but text, of course. And if someone's going to use text to help AI sorry, to generate text to help illustrate an issue, I think it's important to do some fact checking, particularly at this stage in the game where there's a lot of errors that are being found in the information that's being generated. And that, again, going back to the point of harming your credibility and setting you back, if it's going to be more harmful to your ultimate goal, then it may not be worth using, or at the very least, making sure that you're reading through that material and verifying that the information that's contained within it is factual.
[00:58:41] Speaker B: Yeah, those are fantastic points and I really love how you just brought that up, Donna, about the possibility of being able to use AI tech to possibly film or photograph areas that we shouldn't go, that could be really powerful. I was thinking about this amazing guest I had on. Her name is Debbie Saunders, dr. Debbie Saunders, and she's the founder of Wildlife Drones in Australia. And I don't quite know exactly how their tech works because way over my head, but they have technology that will find and track wildlife using trackers in these crazy areas and these crazy places. And it's like this most revolutionary type of tracking that we have and they're able to track these species that are.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Super endangered that we would never be.
[00:59:29] Speaker B: Able to find otherwise.
And I am partnered in my professional work with using AI technology to locate individuals, identify specific individuals of pattern individuals in Photos. So, yeah, if used the right way, there is a lot of good and just as long. Hopefully we'll also have the tools to know when it's not real. I think that's my biggest concern. Will we be able to how strong will our bullshit meter be?
How can we tune that bitch up? Because I need a strong bullshit meter, because that's my biggest concern. Just because these stories are so delicate and I just don't want anything like that to hurt what our mission is.
[01:00:21] Speaker F: I think just going back to a point that we discussed previously, the issues with EA are not necessarily exclusive to AI. Some of those problems exist already where images can be misrepresented.
That already happens now and it's something that we as photographers need to be mindful of. So, again, that transparency, doing the research, making sure that what you're saying, what you're portraying is an accurate reflection of what it is that is happening within that image.
[01:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I told you guys in the last time we sat down. But I submitted an image that has made it to a final round of this pretty big global wildlife photo contest. And I had to submit the raw image to prove it wasn't AI. I was like, this is new. And that kind of is what spurred this whole thought process. I was like, wow, I have to show with data that this isn't AI.
[01:01:18] Speaker A: Wow.
[01:01:19] Speaker B: I have entered 2023.
[01:01:21] Speaker D: Okay, we're here because it does show that we're already looking for ways to make sure people are being correct. Again, Funimalation has been around for ages. We've already been doing this in a lot of photo contests and a lot of things. And I think it's like a new scary thing. But again, I think it can be used for some good. Not necessarily just like in our world, but in a lot of different areas. And one example, similar to Donna's, you can be like, this is a forest that no longer exists, but look what it could have been like, and use just things like that. It doesn't have to be this big, scary thing. And a lot of the problems that we're facing with it have already been here, been around, and we've faced them, and we are facing them. So I don't think we need to be so scared about it, but maybe we do.
[01:02:09] Speaker B: Have you actually heard, since you're in the film world and I'm not as in touch with that world, have you actually seen any examples of AI being used in wildlife film?
[01:02:18] Speaker D: We haven't, no, not that I've seen. But I mean, I'm sure it exists, but I haven't seen any yet. Even on editing things and software, I haven't come across anything in particular. But, I mean, it's going to probably come like it's a matter of like, CGI and all that kind of stuff is kind of like on that realm. BBC or someone, I don't know who it is, but they just released that dinosaur thing and it's like winning a bunch.
[01:02:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, BBC.
[01:02:51] Speaker D: So that kind of stuff I grew up with, everyone grew up with watching that kind of stuff. So I think in the film or it's been around, it's just called something different.
[01:02:59] Speaker E: I grew up in silent film in black and white.
[01:03:02] Speaker F: Yeah, no, sorry, Chelsea. I can't relate.
[01:03:05] Speaker D: Sorry.
Dinosaurs when I was younger.
But I mean, yeah, it's progressed. And I think it's the same thing of like, people are just scared of progression, but it can come with a lot of good, too. It's just a matter of how you handle it and recognizing when it's truthful or not. Which I think we're already doing, like you just said in submitting photos, and they're asking for things. So it's kind of a good.
[01:03:32] Speaker B: Love. I love hearing all the hope. That makes me feel so good.
[01:03:36] Speaker A: So, Josh, I want to talk to.
[01:03:38] Speaker B: You for a second.
[01:03:39] Speaker A: So let's.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: Bring this whole conversation around and put it in a pretty bow. So I want to discuss a real life example, and maybe this is the perfect time to talk about why this group of you amazing people are even here. Like, teach us about the CCPC, your group's mission, and then what is the most recent campaign? How does it bring together all of these aspects that we've talked about and what you're currently working on right now? All of you are amazing part of it.
[01:04:13] Speaker F: Thank you for asking. So, the Canadian Conservation Photographers Collective officially launched in October 2021. So we've been around for a couple of years now.
We started with 19 and have grown to 35 photographers that are based all across Canada. Not all of our photographers were born in Canada. Some have joined us from other parts of the world, but all of them are based in Canada. Our mission is to it's really about education, about informing people about conservation issues, using our visual content to carry that message. So we're hoping to educate, engage, and inspire meaningful action through our work.
We've done it in a number of different ways. We're still growing. We're not yet in an incorporated nonprofit, but that's something that hoping will happen within the next year. But we've engaged in a number of different things. Obviously, we started out small in social media, and then we've got a website, but that has grown gradually over time. Our website is expanded quite a bit recently with our campaign. So the focus of that particular campaign, which is called Crossing Paths the Impacts of Transportation on Wildlife, we wanted to look at different aspects of transportation in Canada that impact wildlife in various different ways.
We chose five themes, which are roads and highways, railways, lakes and rivers, aviation and oceans, because all of those various methods of transportation exist within Canada and are prevalent from coast to coast, from all three coasts, I should say.
So our photographers started shooting in June. They had until the end of September to gather and submit their images. And we also have a volunteer team that has done a tremendous amount of work in preparation for the launch of our campaign. So our campaign officially launched on November 1, and throughout the month, we're going to be sharing information that we've gathered through research, through interviews, with experts, and from partnering organizations that have provided a tremendous amount of expertise and who are experts in some of those particular fields. So our three partners for the organization are the Marine Education Research Society, living Lakes Canada, and the Wildlife Collision Prevention Program. Their focus is on the ocean, on lakes, obviously, and on roads and highways, trying to minimize and mitigate risks of wildlife from collisions and accidents.
So it's been a tremendous amount of work.
As I've said, we've populated our website. So we have a campaign page on our website that branches off into those different themes where you can read the material that we've researched. You can see the images that we've pulled together both from our photographers and from our audience. So some of our followers on Instagram or social media feed submitted images to us, which is phenomenal, help supplement the images that we had. We pulled together video that our photographers had in their existing banks as well as went and shot. And I have to really take a moment to thank this crew here who were actively shooting for this campaign and throwed it, but certainly all of the photographers.
So, yeah, that's it in a.
[01:07:48] Speaker B: Guess.
[01:07:49] Speaker E: So can I add something, though, that I think was important, though, that Josh didn't mention? So in terms of just talking about the issue, though, the campaign also gives solutions to the issues, which I think is important because lots of times we talk about the issues, but we don't talk about the solutions to the issues. So there's solutions there from they interviewed josh did a phenomenal job, and a couple folks like Leron went out and interviewed experts and talked about the issues and what they were.
But this is what we could be doing, and these are things that you could be doing. Just Average Joe blow can be.
So and I think that's a really critical piece of the campaign story. Josh, it's your campaign, but I thought it was important to mention, though, it's.
[01:08:32] Speaker F: Our campaign and no, thank you, Don. I really appreciate I don't always catch everything there, but yeah, no, that is a really important part of what we did there.
[01:08:45] Speaker B: So from an impact standpoint, what are you hoping will happen once the campaign is launched and moved forward? Is there like an end date or I guess, yeah. What's the future of what you've done with.
[01:09:03] Speaker F: Mean? We're trying to measure our success through various means, and actually, Chelsea was the one that really helped sort of guide that discussion around measuring the success of the campaign.
We're tracking, obviously, response activity through our social media feeds like that. But we also want to follow along with our partners to see how many people of our audience are going out to them, making donations or getting involved in projects or in some way contributing to the work that they're doing because they're the experts in these particular fields. We want to guide our audience, give them that information, then give them an opportunity to support organizations that are actively involved in this work, but also giving them opportunities.
Among the solutions that we've suggested, there are things that people can do on their own, certainly to help address and mitigate some of these risks.
[01:10:04] Speaker B: And what was the inspiration for this first one? Why did you decide of all the conservation issues that you could have chosen.
[01:10:10] Speaker F: Why this one personally?
It actually started with a conversation with one of our photographers about a year and a half ago. A little over a year ago. My wife and I were traveling through the Rocky Mountains and we stopped in Canmore and we met with one of the photographers. So one of the nice things is, because we're distributed across the country, it's not always easy to get together, but when we do travel, sometimes you get to actually meet in person. So one of the photographers, Abdullah, we met in a cafe and we were discussing just photography in general. And he showed us some images of grizzly bear that he had photographed on railroad tracks. And he explained the issue behind it and how these trains, as they're carrying grain west from the prairies, they're shedding this grain onto the tracks, which attracts animals, which then get killed. So he had taken these amazing photos and I thought, that's really interesting. It's something that I hadn't considered, something that I wasn't necessarily aware of. And I thought, man, that would be a great topic. So personally, I had that in the back of my head. But we're a democratic organization, so when we make decisions, we do it together and we throw out some different ideas. And this was the topic that everybody chose to tackle first. And it's something that we can do visually. I think that's really important. Whenever we're considering a campaign, there are great subjects, conservation subjects should need to be covered, but it doesn't always mean that there's something that are easy to photograph and tell that story.
This was one. Absolutely.
[01:11:55] Speaker B: And now I have to ask, what did everybody contribute?
What was your moment or the scene? Ray, what was yours? I'll ask everybody.
[01:12:05] Speaker C: You might be able to guess.
But they were little green creatures most of the time.
I've come across a lot of obviously, like turtles, even in the wild, and that's a really big problem for reptiles, is getting crushed on the road. So that was a majority of my contribution, is, fortunately, a few reptile and amphibian corpses.
Reptiles are cold blooded, so they want to warm up in those sunlight. And unfortunately, paved roads are perfect for that. So there's a lot of turtle mortality I'd like to see in areas where there's more that type of traffic, more signage and things like that. Hopefully, as a result of a campaign like this, a lot of dead snakes, a local conservancy, they're called the Fraser Valley Conservancy. They do a lot of great work during seasons where the baby western toad litz will be crossing the roads in droves. They'll be little black pebbles by the thousands just going all over. And unfortunately, they're getting crushed by the hundreds and it's awful. So they've done amazing work to make little underground tunnels. They have fencing that'll redirect them.
And getting back to the overall campaign, we include footage and we support the ideas of, say, wildlife overpasses. Right. So alternatives to where animals might not be hit on the road and that extends to the rivers and the oceans as well. That there's hopefully solutions to these issues. Right. But back to what you actually asked me. Yeah, mostly like little creatures, like roadside animals of what I like to focus on, the reptiles and amphibians is what I contributed.
[01:14:02] Speaker F: He's leaving out the fact that he also dropped at a moment's notice and ran off to conduct one of the interviews with one of our, you know, that was very much appreciated. We had a short window of opportunity and Ray stood up.
[01:14:18] Speaker C: It was around the corner. It looked pretty bad if I didn't do it.
[01:14:27] Speaker B: Got to keep that good reputation going. I understand.
[01:14:30] Speaker C: Got to really contribute to a fearless leader.
[01:14:37] Speaker B: Donna, what was yours? What was the whole story behind the images you submitted?
[01:14:42] Speaker E: Well, trying to get access to an airport is not easy, but I'm fortunate that my husband is the transportation foreman here and looks after the airport where we live in our small town. So it allowed me to be able to be out at the airport and get photos because airport access is not that easy.
And some of the equipment that they use mostly birds, right. But like the scare guns and predator kites and things like that to try to discourage the gulls and other birds, ravens and stuff from being on the tarmac so that they don't have planes being hit.
So that was the majority of what I contributed. And some rail stuff as well too, because I'm in Jasper quite frequently and trains are pretty plentiful going through Jasper and I like to stand on those tracks a lot, as do bears and other animals as well too. So those are mostly what I contributed to the campaign.
[01:15:44] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[01:15:45] Speaker B: Chelsea, what were yours?
[01:15:46] Speaker D: I was naughty and I haven't submitted any yet, but they were it was like a while ago, but it was the first time I actually learned about it. But I was in the sanctuary and it had an owl and some bald eagles and they had all been hit by cars. And basically when you throw out your apple cause or any biological matter, you're like, oh, it'll disintegrate. And I've done this before. Before this I was like, yeah, sure. But it actually tracks all rodents and it tracks things that come and eat that which then further attract birds of prey. And so that was an interesting little neat thing that I learned that I have not.
[01:16:49] Speaker F: I think it's important to note that Chelsea's circumstances this summer reflect that of a number of her photographers. And the reality is, like Chelsea, who is a freelance videographer, many of our photographers are working professionally.
So if they're on contract, if they're on assignment or whatever the case may be, they didn't necessarily have those opportunities. It really varies by people's life circumstances, their availability and opportunity to contribute to one specific project. But certainly over time, Chelsea absolutely has and has contributed some beautiful imagery and videography. So we're very grateful for the work that she does.
[01:17:29] Speaker D: He's too nice.
[01:17:30] Speaker E: He's too nice.
I have no life, so I can go out and photograph wait, so you're.
[01:17:39] Speaker C: Letting her off the hook?
Where's the accountability?
[01:17:47] Speaker F: We'll talk about it later. Right?
[01:17:50] Speaker C: We'll discuss this later.
[01:17:53] Speaker B: He's like, the record button still on. We can't have this live on Erin in a file.
[01:17:59] Speaker F: That's right. What the hell?
[01:18:07] Speaker B: Wonderful. Well, I love to wrap up these amazing conversations with probably it is always one of my favorite questions because I never ever know what somebody is going to say. And if any of you have a piece of advice or a message that you would like to give to those listening, if it could be one thing that somebody walked away with, what would that be? And any of you can go or I could go in a circle. It doesn't matter.
[01:18:47] Speaker E: In terms of conservation photography, sometimes the best photos you take are the one. Sometimes the best images are the ones you never take that are in your head because you did the right thing and you walked away from the situation and you didn't stress the animal, but you have the memory of it. Nobody else is going to see it but you. It's in your head. But sometimes those are the best.
[01:19:06] Speaker D: Okay, mine's like a cheesy one.
From a career standpoint, if it's something that you're going into as a career to make money off of, a, it's freaking hard, and B, I think I don't know, growing up or not growing up, but throughout my career, it's always been this constant. Like, you compare yourself and your timeline to your colleagues and it's like, oh, shit, they're only doing that. I'm doing that. And it's like I mean, it's still like a work in progress for me. But I say this a lot like you're on your own timeline. There's no race, there's nowhere to get to.
I've met people now that have started this career in their mid 30s or forty s, and they're now camera operators. And it's like, oh, thank God. Because just built with this.
Ideally, you have to start young and you have to reach certain milestones as your age. And I think it's just so stupid and yeah. And just have confidence in yourself and stop comparing yourself to others.
Cheesy when I told you that's really great reminder holds a lot of people back, including myself. So I'm trying to speak my own words and go by my own word. That's the word.
[01:20:21] Speaker C: So there's still time, is what you're saying.
[01:20:24] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:20:28] Speaker E: You're never too old to start either, though, because I didn't really get into it until just about 50 years of age.
Don't be held back by your age, young or old.
[01:20:41] Speaker B: Ray, did you have anything any last.
[01:20:46] Speaker C: You guys have been putting it really well. Cheesy or not. I think you put it great. But I guess maybe to take a page from the turtles. You can go slow sometimes you can take in everything that you want to see, right? You don't have to rush to your next destination. The next amazing photograph opportunity or conservation story could be where you least expect it. That was pretty cheesy itself, but that's.
[01:21:16] Speaker D: All that was cheesy than mine.
[01:21:17] Speaker C: But it was yeah, it was.
[01:21:24] Speaker F: All right, I'll jump in with my last thoughts.
I didn't mention it today, but I often say this I'm a conservationist who picked up a camera, and I did it specifically to tell conservation stories. I would say to anyone who is passionate about conservation that this really is a great way to get involved and help share that message. And the experiences you have along the way are phenomenal. Spending time in nature around the things that you truly love, I can't think of a better way to connect with it. And when you leave, that subject is still intact and still unharmed, and you've witnessed it in its natural environment, and you can walk away and have those memories and have beautiful images that you can share, but also that you can treasure.
[01:22:20] Speaker B: That is so good. And I could not agree more.
I was the exact same way. It was, like, very similar to Ray. I was a conservation biologist that happened to pick up a camera and I'm like, wow, what better way to just show the beauty of this world than with this lens and this mirror thing that I have? And I don't know what's an ISO? I have no freaking idea. But we will figure this out. Should I just start an auto? Okay, great. We'll start there. But.
[01:22:52] Speaker C: I've never quite figured it out.
[01:22:59] Speaker B: Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you all so much for taking the time to sit down with me, to sit down with everybody and let us see behind the lens what is it actually like to be a conservation photographer and have impact with images and also with our words. So thank you all so much. I can't wait to share this with everybody. It was awesome.
[01:23:22] Speaker F: Thank you for having us.
[01:23:25] Speaker C: Thanks, Greg.
[01:23:26] Speaker B: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today.
[01:23:30] Speaker A: I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights, and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
[email protected].
If you enjoyed today's conversation and want to stay connected with the Rewildology community, hit that subscribe button and rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app. I read every comment left across the show's platforms, and your feedback truly does.
[01:23:59] Speaker B: Mean the world to me.
[01:24:01] Speaker A: Also, please follow the show on your favorite social media app. Join the Rewildology's Facebook group, and sign up for the weekly Rewildology newsletter. In the newsletter, I share recent episodes, the latest conservation news, opportunities from across the field, and updates from past guests.
If you're feeling inspired and would like to make a financial contribution to the show. Head on over to Rewildology.com and donate directly to the show through PayPal or purchase a piece of swag to show off your Rewild Algae love.
Remember, rewilding isn't just a concept, it's a call to action. Whether it's supporting a local conservation project, reducing your own impact, or simply sharing.
[01:24:47] Speaker B: The knowledge you've gained.
[01:24:48] Speaker A: Today, you have the power to make a difference.
A big thank you to the guests that come onto the show and share their knowledge with all of us. And to all of you Rewild Algae listeners for making the show everything it is today. This is Brooke signing off. Remember, together we will rewild the planet.
