[00:00:00] Speaker A: Mountains, glaciers, wildfires. The northern Cascades in Washington state are home to an incredible array of wildlife, including a species rarely seen in the continental United States, the canadian lynx.
Welcome to Rewadology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel, and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
In this episode, we're joined by Carmen von Bianchi, co founder and research director of Home Range, a non profit organization dedicated to conserving the lynx and other wildlife in the Cascade Mountains of Washington.
Carmen shares her journey from studying lynx as a graduate student to co founding her own nonprofit to protect this elusive cat and its habitat. We dive so deep into the unique ecology of the Cascades, discussing how lynx are adapted to this environment and the threats they face from habitat loss, climate change, and increased recreation.
Carmen shares fascinating details about the lynx's life history, behavior, and what makes this species distinct from other cats, namely bobcats. Carmen also highlights Holm Range's multifaceted mission, from field research to community education initiatives aimed at fostering coexistence. One of our favorite topics here between humans and lynx. We also explored the larger forces at play, like the recent surge in catastrophic wildfires, and how these events impact lynx, bears, and other wildlife in the region. Carmen and I also discuss a very cool field training program that home range provides for the next generation of wildlife biologists. So if you're new in your career, definitely don't miss this part.
And throughout our conversation, Carmen's passion for conservation shines through as she shared the challenges of running a non profit, the joys of connecting with local communities, and what motivates her to keep fighting for this incredible species.
Be sure to follow the show on your favorite social media and podcast app. And if you have a moment, please give the show a rating and review to help others find these conservationist stories. The show's guests and I would be very, very grateful if you did.
All right, friends, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with Carmen.
Hi, Carmen. Thank you so much for sitting down with me and bringing a new species to the show, which I can't wait to talk all about, especially in a particular place that might surprise people. So before we get to all of that, I know you have quite a story. So tell me, tell everybody, where does your story begin? What is the journey? What is day one for you and how you got to what you're doing today?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah, well, let's see. I grew up playing outside. I think that's where it really started. I grew up running around in the woods, building forts, playing in the creeks, catching frogs. And so, from a really early age, I knew that I was into the outdoors, and I was into animals, and my dad is a botanist, and so he sort of instilled in me. That made me into a little scientist. I think my first science project was in kindergarten science fair, and I collected some tree frogs and had them in a terrarium. And my experiment was, do frogs start singing when they hear other frogs singing?
So it was a very basic little experiment, but it was a lot of fun. Although I brought the terrarium to the school gymnasium for the actual science fair the day before, and that night, all the frogs got loose. And so the teachers were scrambling to catch all my frogs before the science fair began. But they got them, and it was a great science fair. But, yeah, so I was interested in animals and in science from a really pretty young age. And so as I got older and sort of my ideas about what I could do with that matured, I discovered wildlife research and wildlife management. I had a subscription to the wildlife society magazine that they send out when I was in late high school. And so by the time it was time to go to college, I was ready to hit the ground running. And so I went to Humboldt State University, which has a great wildlife program. And around that time, I also started to get interested in hunting for deer. And I began hunting. Of course, I'd always been backpacking and spending time in the outdoors, and I also started doing fieldwork. And I just loved it. I loved everything about it. I loved being outside all day. I loved getting to go to different places across North America to work and learn about different ecosystems and learn about different species and different wildlife research techniques and methodologies, and since then, continued to do fieldwork whenever I could. Getting different experiences started to sort of focus in on carnivore research.
And that's when I decided it was time to do a masters, and I began that here in Washington state. And that was my first research, looking at Canada Lincs. And so that's. I'll pause there in my journey. But that brings me to the point where I began LIncs research.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Well, that's actually my next question.
Why? Why the lynx? I mean, well, one, why did you go back to Washington state? If you were all over the country just having fun and being in the field? What took you back to Washington? And then, why the links of all the different carnivore species, or just species, north american species in general? Why this one?
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, Washington state is where I grew up, and I knew that it was a place that I wanted to return to some day. The North Cascades mountains are a really special and close to my heart place. It's a very cool area because we've these that are coming down, and we're at the sort of southern edge of their range, and then we've also got southern species that are at the northern end of their range, and so we've got this cool mix of northern and southern species, and so it's a really rich environment. And so this was a place I knew I wanted to go or settle back into.
Now, why lynx? I think that for me, it's never been one certain species that I've been just really into or really interested in. I think lynx are really cool. I am very interested in lynx. But the other, I think what really hooked me is more their ecology. They are an interesting species because they're a specialized carnivore, they're specialized to living in forests, and they're specialized on eating snowshoe harrows prey. And so lynx present a really interesting and challenging species for conservation.
The other thing I'm really interested in with them is their interactions with disturbance. They're a forest dependent species, and of course, forests experience disturbance. And for us here in the west, that's primarily wildfire, and that's something that's increasing because of past forest practices and because of climate change. And so this introduces an element to managing their habitat that is really tricky because it's not a constant. Over time, it's constantly changing. And so we have to think about managing lynx habitat, not only in a spatial way, across the landing it across time.
And so that's really fascinating. And I think the other reason I was drawn to doing lynx work is Lincs are federally listed as threatened in the lower 48, and in Washington, they're state endangered. And so this is a species that feels like it urgently needs some attention, and that's where I wanted to put my time and effort.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: That makes total sense. Okay. Yeah. Especially going back there and having loved that ecosystem. So did you study them in your masters, and is that how you discovered everything that was going on, or what was the timeline there that led up to starting home range?
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So let's see.
I had worked as a field technician on a couple different LINCs projects, and so I had experience working with Lincs when I moved to the North Cascades in Washington. I wanted to get involved in the lynx work that was happening here, and so I started working for the Forest Service. At the time, we were gps collaring lynx across their Washington range here, which is really limited to the north Cascades of Washington, trying to learn some things about their habitat. Coincidentally, the year, but the summer before this collaring effort began, we had really one of the first of what we call mega fires. So, fires that are over 100,000 acres, and it burned right in the heart, and most of what was once considered the best lynx habitat in Washington. So this was the 2006 tripod burn, and it just, it burned hot, and it was a really big fire. And this really worried lynx conservationists, because lynx, like I said before, they rely on snowshoe hares for, you know, typically 80% to 90% of their diet. They really need to have a lot of snowshoe hares on the landscape. Snowshoe hares, in turn, depend on a thick boreal or sub boreal forest understory.
Snowshoe hares need to live in a spot where there's lots of branches down low that they can not only eat, but can offer them protection from predators. Everybody wants to eat a snowshoe hare. It's not just lynx, it's owls, it's coyotes, it's. It's everybody. And so because snowshoe hairs are so linked to this really dense, thick forest structure, that's what links are also linked to. And so when a fire comes through and burns really hot, it's removing all of that structure. Those who hears can't survive there, Lynx can't survive there. And so in the aftermath of a really big, high severity fire, we've lost Lynx habitat. And so that's what happened in this 2006 tripod burn we collared, let's see, I think 13 lynx, and I ended up being the one to use that collar data, and I used it for my masters. And what we decided to look at was not only just Lynx habitat selection in the area, but we wanted to look at how they were using that burn in the years 1234, those years right after the fire, sort of the common knowledge at the time was, ah, that all burned. That's not going to be usable to lynx. You know, we're pretty much calling that non habitat. What we found was that, by and large, yes, areas that were just blasted by the fire weren't offering a whole lot for Lynx. But if we think about fire in a more nuanced and textured way, they're often burning with what we call pyro diversity. So there's differences in how it burns. It might burn really hot here, it might burn just lightly there, and it might skip this area entirely. And so in the aftermath of a burn, there can be a lot of texture left, a lot of residual live trees left. And we found that for fire skips, these little islands of trees that were.
That were big enough, lynx were actually making use of those, and so they were making the best of this burned situation, and we knew, okay, there's some value here in these fire scars, even immediately after a fire.
The idea there then is, while our fires are trending to be bigger and hotter and to burn with less pyro diversity, if there's a way that we can increase the pyrodiversity when fires do inevitably burn, that's going to be better for Lynx in that time right after a fire.
So anyway, so that was my master's work, and it just really cemented for me how interesting this dynamic between wildlife and wildfire is and how understudied it is, especially considering the major impact that climate driven mega fires are having. And so since that time, I've watched. So there was a 2006 tripod burn, and then just boom, boom, boom. In the next, you know, 15 to 20 years, we just had mega fire after mega fire. And so I've watched this landscape become completely transformed by fire.
And so it's prevalent not only when I'm thinking about Lynx habitat, but it's prevalent if you live in the west for a lot of us, and, you know, every single summer, it's on our minds. It's smoky. Maybe it's burning nearby. So it's.
Yeah, it's interesting on a personal level and a conservation level.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: And so I guess if we could talk about the mission then, of home range. So how did this come about? Why did you decide to start a nonprofit? That, and was the main mission, at least in the beginning, was to study this dynamic between links and wildfires, or just like, wildfires in the northern Cascades ecosystem, or. Yeah, I mean, that's such a big decision to do. Why did you decide to go down this path instead of, like, becoming, let's say, a wildlife biologist for the Forest Service or something like that, to study this? Like, why did you choose this path to.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: So that sort of happened parallel to my interest in links, I would say. So let's see. So about almost 15 years ago, I settled down in the north cascades. I did this links work. I did my masters. I also worked on other projects here, and I began to grow what feels like to me a really important relationship with this landscape. I care really deeply about it, and as part of sort of, I don't know, forming this relationship with a place and a landscape, you start to see patterns and you start to see changes. You start to see fires burn, fires regrow. You start to see, oh, I used to see species x here all the time. Now I don't see it so much or whatever, these patterns that just being a naturalist and being outside consistently over the years start to sort of float to the surface. And so I began to get really invested in this place.
And then several years ago now, starting in 2017, I was working for University of Washington. They were conducting a large study looking at Predator Prey dynamics across eastern Washington. And so I was hired onto that, to that project. And through doing that work, I met two wonderful colleagues who are also working on that project.
And we all, all three of us, decided that they, too, wanted to settle here in the North Cascades. And so when this project ended, we started to think more seriously about some sort of daydreams that we had had over the years, which were, how cool and perfect would it be to start our own organization of sorts so that we can really invest in wildlife research and conservation issues that, a, we feel like need attention, and, b, sort of fit into our fortes and our wheelhouses and some. There were sort of three things that each of us were most passionate about and felt like we were positioned well to help address. And one, I came to it with just this sort of burning desire to keep doing what I felt like was going to be research that addressed sort of urgent conservation needs here in the North Cascades and beyond, too.
But, yeah, doing really applied, sort of urgently needed research.
Anna Makowitz is an extremely, extremely skilled educator and has a lot of knowledge for working in the field. She's got a huge array of field skills. And something we have noticed over the years and experienced is sort of this pervasive culture in wildlife research, where a lot of times young technicians may be freshly graduated from undergrad and they have a great education, but they don't have a lot of that practical field experience. And then they are hired on as technicians and sort of it's trial by fire, it's learn while you work. And, you know, that works pretty well, and we've all done that. But it's not always the safest way to do things. It's not always the most comfortable way to do things. It can be kind of a anxiety provoking learning environment, and it's often not great for the project. Sometimes, you know, equipment might be broken, things like that, if you're learning how to snowmobile, say, on the job. And it, I think, impacts data quality, because if a lot of your day's energy is just focused on, oh, my gosh, how do I, you know, use the telemetry or how do I ride a snowmobile? You're not getting to put your energy and focus on collecting data, and you're not going to be as efficient. And so Anna wanted to incorporate some field skills courses. And these courses are awesome because it gives people a chance to practice these skills and learn them in like a slow, no pressure environment and so that you can at least have some skills in your back pocket so that when you go out to your new job, you're not like a deer in the headlights trying to figure out as you go. And she puts together really cool courses. There's a couple coming up this summer. They're right now focused more on mammals research because that's where we're at. But it's everything from setting trail cameras. We incorporate a lot of track and sign interpretation, including kill site analysis. And in cooperation with Doctor Mark Johnson of Global Wildlife Resources, she's putting on a chemical immobilization course where you have hands on practice with immobilizing goats, in this case. But, yeah, so some really great courses. And that is cool because it also sort of feeds into our research because we have the tools and the methods to be educating young biologists.
And at the same time, we're getting to wrap that into our research because we're hiring young biologists. And so we hope that the way that we're training them is benefiting from what we do, teaching the courses. And then the third pillar that we felt was really important is to make sure we are including communities in the science that we're doing. We will feel pretty strongly that for conservation actions that come out of research to really reach their full potential and be implemented in the most impactful way, you're going to need community support for those changes, whatever they may be. And so if we can include people in the science from the beginning, they're going to understand what's going on and they're going to be more supportive and more connected and invested in it. And so we've got a community science program where we're working on human black bear coexistence, and we've got a community science project where they're looking at natural food availability compared to human bear conflict. And by conflict, it could, I don't necessarily mean a negative interaction, but just bears coming in, basically bears coming into human spaces to look for food. And so it's a really cool way to help teach the community about pulling our socks up a little bit around being bear wise and the scientific process. And then we're also, again, it's got crossover, including community scientists, into the Lynx project and things like that. So kind of a non conventional mission, and we decided to sort of package this all up as a nonprofit, which was a huge learning curve. We're all biologists, but that's been incredible to learn about how to start a nonprofit, and it's proven to be incredibly rewarding and kind of a cool, different way to do things. And to your question about, you know, were we already thinking about the links and fire research?
It was definitely on my mind when we were sort of picking what we wanted to throw ourselves into, but we also took time to discuss with our other colleagues in the area and get opinions on what did they think was some urgent research that needed to happen. And happily for me, everybody agreed that this was a topic that we needed to dive into probably yesterday, but better late than never.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: So amazing. You guys are just doing all the things. It's just so cool. It's so exciting, and we'll definitely get into them a little bit more. But before we dive too much further into the research, I think this might be a good time to maybe just give a canadian Lynx 101.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: What are these cats? How are they different?
If you were looking at them like a lot of people get bobcats and Lynx confused and understandable. If you don't know the difference, they might be a little hard. So what is the canadian lynx from just the 101 standpoint?
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Right. Okay, so Canada lynx are. You're right. They're really closely related to bobcats, and they look pretty similar. They occupy different niches because lynx are really adapted to deep snow environments. The core there range is up in Canada and Alaska. We're at the southern range edge, and they only exist where sort of latitude or higher elevations allow that boreal, that northern boreal forest, to sort of snake down into the lower 48. And so lynx differ from bobcats in that adaptation to deep sew. So if you think. If you sort of visualize a bobcat, they're, you know, medium sized carnivore. They've got a short tail, they've got the spots. They have really sort of small feet compared to their body size, whereas a lynx, which is about the same average weight as a bobcat, has these giant, oversized paws. They look kind of ridiculous, and those huge paws, compared to their body weight, act like snowshoes. And so they're pretty well adapted to getting around in this deep snow. And so that sort of separates them in the environment from bobcats. So as we see bobcats start to taper off in their range as you go north in latitude or up in elevation in the mountains, that's when you then see lynx sort of take over, because they're the only ones that can really hack it in that deep snow. In the winter, bobcats are just going to be, you know, struggling and getting mired in the deep snow with their. Their little feet. So that's one of the main differences when you're looking at a bobcat versus a lynx. There's some other differences, like Lynx beyond their feet. They are just.
They're kind of look like a Muppet because they've got these long, gangly legs. They're super fuzzy. They've got these big sort of beard muffs and these long ear tufts. And then the other key difference to look for is that a lynx's tail looks like the tip of it has been dipped in ink. So it's black all the way around the tip, whereas a bobcat, there is black on top of the tip of the tail, but there's also white on the bottom of the tip of the tail. So lynx bobcats, similar, but they occupy these different environments, and for bobcats, they're much more generalist. Sure, they're eating snowshoe hares if they come across them, but they're also eating lots of small rodents, lots of squirrels. They're taking down deer. They've got a pretty varied diet and varied habitat, thus that they can exist in. But again, the lynx, super reliant on this snowshoe hare, so super reliant on this, this thick forest structure in the deep snow and boreal forest ecosystem.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks for teaching me that. I also, I guess my next logical question, then, is why are they not doing so well in the lower 48, especially in Washington? From what I read, there's an estimated only 50 left in Washington. Is that correct? Correct.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm certainly, certainly under 100. And so part of the answer there is that they are at the southern edge of their range, and so their habitat is naturally starting to transition into more southerly environments. And so they've probably never existed in numbers like they do in the core of their range for Washington.
Well, let me back up. So they were originally listed federally, basically because we didn't know much, and there were no regulatory, there wasn't management in place, and so they were listed because people felt like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need to get a handle on what's going on here. And then in Washington in 2016, they were uplisted because in large part of these fires. And so this transformation from a landscape that was mostly covered with mature forest to a landscape that's now mostly burned.
And so when we think about managing lynx, it's usually what it comes down to now that there aren't, there, you know, there's no hunting or trapping of lynx. So now that that's been eliminated, the biggest hurdle for them is habitat. You manage their habitat, they have good habitat. Then there's snowshoe hares, and then there's lynx. So it's really a habitat issue.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: So then back to the management thing. So I know that one of your big missions, and according to our last conversation, and, like, reading all of your, just all of the amazing stuff that you do, is you're bridging the gap between wildlife research and conservation and, like, fire ecology and, like, working with this whole other group of people on the environment. So how, how have you gone about that? What is the connection here? How do we best manage the land that, you know, will help with these fires, too, which will also then, in turn, help with all the wildlife, including the links and everything that's in that ecosystem? So what is that tie there? And, and how are you bringing these people together to help with this issue of these megafires?
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm really fortunate to live in this area where we've got just some incredible minds, and there's a lot of really cool research and history of research here. And I've been working with some really great fire ecologists, namely Susan Pritchard and Paul Hesberg. Susan Pritchard's with the University of Washington. Paul Hesberg is with the Forest Service.
They've been studying wildfire in the North Cascades for a long time. And what I have learned through talking with them and with my research is a little bit about the history of our fire ecology here. And I'll give just a really briefish overview of that because it really helps sort of set the stage for understanding what's going on with lynx here. So our fire history here can kind of be broken down into three different eras. We've got the historic fire era, the fire suppression era, and then we've got our modern mega fire era.
So starting with the historic fire regime, research has shown that we've always had this really lively fire regime in the high elevation forest of the North Cascades. And what I mean by that is that very often there were little fires and they were burning here, they were burning there, and sort of dotting the landscape with little burn scars year after year, little burn scars here and there.
That gave the landscape sort of a patchwork of different forests, structural stages. It gave it this texture, it gave it different habitats, basically.
And it also created this negative feedback loop, wherein a fire that was happening this year could then dampen the effect of a future fire, because they're basically putting all these little speed bumps, or little fire breaks into the landscape. And so fires were self regulating, basically.
Sometimes big fires would come through, but again, all of those little fires had, like, created this textured, varied palette for that fire to burn on. So even big fires burned with a lot of that pyro diversity I was talking about. They get slowed here by a previous fire scar. They might, you know, torch a bunch of older forests here, but then slow down and just sort of skunk along really lightly in another spot that had been burned previously. And so the end result was that there was always some of every kind of habitat available. The exact patches were ephemeral and always changing, and it was super dynamic, but it was this sort of balance of all these different habitats that were happening, with the bonus of it being this negative feedback loop, so that it regulated itself, so that in perpetuity, there was going to be enough habitat for everything, every species out there, I should say. So that was the historic fire era. Then we humans started to get really good at fire suppression, and around the 1940s and fifties, we were pretty dang good at putting out fire starts. And in just the next 50 or so years, here in the north Cascades, here in this watershed, the methow watershed, where this work is taking place, it was hundreds of fires starts that they put out. And so, essentially, the forest lost the texture that the historic fire regime created. It was allowed to even up and grow and just turn into this sort of contiguous, homogenized, mature forest, aka this mature, homogenized, contiguous fuel bed. And so for Lynx, this was okay, because it was forested and they could make a living on this. This is when we first did our first habitat studies of lynx in the north Cascades. And so we learned a lot of really awesome, great information. And by we, I mean the collective. We. We learned all this really great information about how Lynx select habitat and the particulars of what they need.
But in the early two thousands, all of a sudden, climate change began to just. It sort of this perfect storm occurred, where we've got this. This landscape that is loaded with fuels. It's a tinderbox, and now we've got longer, hotter, drier and even windier summers. And it's this perfect recipe for big fires to start taking off. And when these kind of fires take off, fire suppression a lot of times is out the window. They're beyond firefighting capabilities.
And so in just 20 years or so, the landscape changed from being mostly mature forest to being just completely transformed by these mega fires. And so now, in this era, what we're seeing is fires that are burning hotter and they're burning bigger and more often. And so that sort of pitter patter, that dappling of little fires that we had in the historic fire regime, that was self regulating, the self feedback loop, that's gone. And instead, we're having these sweeping fires that are burning with less pyro diversity and with higher severity, meaning most or all the trees are burned when, when it's going at a high severity. And so, on the one hand, this is not good news, obviously. It's not the way this landscape evolved, it's not how the species on it. This is not the fire regime that they evolved with. And it's changing things out there. And it's sort of self perpetuating. Because one of the other things that this research has found is that when a fire burns big and at a more uniform, high severity, that burn scar and the way it regenerates is set up to burn again in a similar way, because it doesn't have that passion.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Exactly, or just the pyro diversity. Right.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: So the, the glimmer of hope that we have is that wildfire research is clearly showing that we may not be able to control the effects that the climate is having, these top down issues, but we can control some of the bottom up issues, meaning we can go out there and treat our forests to reintroduce that historic type patchwork, reintroduce those speed bumps, those fire breaks, and we can do that through, mainly through little prescribed fires. So timing these burns with the correct, you know, weather, a little cooler, little damper, so that they're burning more like a historic fire would burn. And we're getting that texture back on the landscape. The tricky part there is that when we think about going out on the landscape and doing these treatments, it can. It's concerning to a lynx biologist, because to reduce fuels, you're often taking away some of that thick structure that snowshoe hares and thus lynx need, and so conserving lynx habitat and trying to reintroduce some forest resiliency, those two goals can feel very at odds. But to that, I say, you know, think about the big picture, because if we don't take a little bit of that lynx habitat now, we're not going to save it over the long term, because these big fires are inevitable. They are not stopping. And so it's. It's a little bit of a hard pill to swallow, but if we're thinking long term, the evidence so far is that this is, this is one way we can actually have an impact. And so the. The hope with this research is that if we can learn how lynx are using this novel fire transformed landscape, we can hopefully use that information to inform forest treatment plans so that they have the least impact on the links that are here now, using the landscape here and now, while also reintroducing some of that, that resiliency. So that's a way that we can try to bring these opposing seeming objectives together and hopefully find a sweet spot where it's working, both for Lynx and for raining and wildfires.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: So is this still an idea phase, or is this in action? Like, are those amazing fire ecologists you were just talking about? Are they doing this on the ground and you all are studying the dynamics with the wildlife? Or is this, like, we are creating the plan now and this is what we're going to do? Just where are we at in all of this?
[00:39:34] Speaker B: Right? As far as the links research, we're in the doing phase, we're doing the research. As far as the treatments, that is not happening presently. And so our hope is that by the time these treatments hopefully start to happen, we'll have the information to help inform them. We'll have sort of some decision making tools for managers to use to craft forest treatments that consider lynx conservation as well. As far as the research we're in, let's see, we're in our second year of collecting field data, and it's. We're really excited because we're working in the 2006 tripod bird. So that first bird I was talking about, that it took out 175,000 acres of.
Of the forest, and, you know, almost all of that was in the heart of arling's habitat.
And I began working here shortly after that burn started, and I've been working in that burn for almost 15 years now. And when I started, the trees that were starting to regrow in there were maybe, you know, knee height.
And I remember going out with a local biologist here, and this was maybe ten years after that burn, and we rode out on snowmobiles, and we were specifically looking for snowshoe hare and Lynx tracks, and we saw absolutely nothing. We did that a couple times, saw nothing.
Several years ago, I guess probably five years ago now. And this was back when I was working on the Predator prey project before we started home range. We were working the tripod for other reasons, in the winter and snowmobiling around and, oh, my gosh, one day there were a set of lynx tracks, and we were just ecstatic. And we saw them a couple more times that winter, and then the next winter, we started seeing them more often and so on, until at this point, we're out there every day, and every day we were seeing freshlings, tracks, and in fact, through the data that we're gathering, we know that there are links that not only use the burn, but they're living entirely within the burn. And that just.
That gives me a lot of hope. It's so cool to watch this landscape, this really vast, burned landscape, go from not supporting links that live within it to having lynx live entirely within this burn. It's so. It just. I get excited every time I see it.
Doesn't get old.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, it has to be so rewarding. Yeah, especially too, because you've seen, like you said, you've seen it when there was no tracks, when it was, like, all doom and gloom. You're like, this is burned. They're never coming back to seeing them every single day. Like, I can only imagine what that feels like.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And not only that exactly. Not only that, but we're seeing female lynx with kittens, and so we know that there's reproduction happening and that these links are female links are at least partially using the burn.
My guess would be that there are female links that are living entirely within the burn. We don't have any of that data yet, unfortunately, but we're hoping to hone in on that a little more.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: So then, from the data you have collected, is there anything that you can share preliminary results, or is it still way too early to have enough package data? Like, okay, this trend is looking this way, or maybe not. Do you have anything like that yet?
[00:43:20] Speaker B: So we haven't done any analysis yet. We're still just gathering and gathering data. But let's see, I'll back up and sort of explain the data that we are collecting. So we have sort of three main data streams. One really powerful and awesome way to collect data on these animals is to go out in the winter and track them in the snow. We have on our team some amazing wildlife trackers that are not only good at, you know, saying, oh, this track is from this species, this track is from that species.
But she is at the level where she knows how the animal was moving by the pattern of tracks that are left in the snow. And so she can tell, was this lynx walking slowly through the snow? And then she can tell, you know, oh, look, it. It sort of crouched down there in an ambush, and then here it is bounding, and she can document where they're making successful kills with snowshoe hares. And so this information is going to give us a couple of things. So she's out there tracking these links and recording the shape of the trail.
Just from that shape, we can do movement analysis that can parse out from basically how squiggly that shape is or not, can parse out behaviors that we think the lynx was doing. So was it like beelining from point a to b, or was it squiggling around and, like, obviously searching for prey in this, you know, habitat patch or whatever? And that is so important because then we start to know what habitats lynx, on a really fine scale are using for hunting. And beyond that, because she's documenting Sochi hair kills, we know not only are the habitats that they're hunting in, but where they're successfully making kills, and that is like, that's the gold. That's the gold habitat right there. So backtracking lynx is a really awesome way to get super detailed habitat and behavior information on these animals. And so from that, again, you know, we haven't crunched the numbers yet, but anecdotally, they are finding kills not only in fire skips, so mature forest that was skipped over by the fire, but they're finding a number of kills in the regenerating small trees. And so that's a really great sign for lynx. The other data that we're collecting is we are trapping and collaring lynx, so we're putting gps collars on lynx, and this is just going to be a really powerful way to learn what kinds of habitats they're using on a megafire landscape. So what are the forest types? What are the structures of these forests? And beyond that, what are the patterns of those patches? Like, are there certain size patches they need, et cetera? And so that's just going to be really helpful for assessing the landscape and knowing whether it could possibly support lynx or not. And if we're going to be trying to introduce fire treatments onto this landscape, we can sort of plan ahead and think about, well, we want to make sure we've got this configuration and type of habitat, enough of that left to support the links that are there. And so the GPS collars are a really powerful tool for learning about their habitat. And then the other thing we're doing is some camera work, and that's just so that we can have a large array of cameras in our study area and beyond, so that we can extrapolate what we're learning in our study area beyond that burn and have a little bit of a basis for comparison, make sure we're not over or under extrapolating what we learn. So those are our main data streams.
I think the things that we've learned so far with the GPS data and with the cameras are that a. Like I said, there are links living entirely within the burn. That those home ranges so far, again, this is just anecdotally, are not huge. They're on the smaller size of what an average home range would be for a lynx, which, you know, in theory, the better the habitat, the less space you need. The poorer the habitat, the bigger the home range you're going to have. So that's a good sign. And then our cameras are showing us and helping us learn that there's certainly some more links in this area than I imagined that there would be. And not that it's a ton, but it's more.
This burn, I think, is pretty well saturated with lynx. And again, we're seeing signs of reproduction, which is just really, really hopeful.
Oh, so heartwarming.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. That tracking, that sounds like the funnest winter activity of all time.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: It is incredible.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: I love tracking in the mouth.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: Yes, we're super passionate about tracking here at home range because it's, I think, a really important skill. And in a lot of ways, I think just sort of those old fashioned, like, naturalist skills are sort of dying out a bit, and that's our. Our best way of keeping tabs on what's going on out there. And to have people who are good naturalists and know how to identify, track and sign, those are the people who are going to be picking up on patterns and changes. I mean, that's. That's, you know, going back to that story about seeing more and more tracks on that landscape. We picked up on this pattern that lynx were returning, and that's because we've put effort into learning how to track animals and identify tracks in that. And so I just. Yeah, whenever I can plug biologists working on their. Their naturalist skills, I like to do that because I think it's. I think it's really important.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds like so much fun. Oh, my gosh. I'm already just, like, daydreaming of, like, oh, my God. If I could come out there and track with you guys, that would just be the funny thing.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: So fun. It's so cool in the snow, especially because you can see every little thing. You're watching a story unravel in front of you.
One cool story that the tracker. So Christine Phelan is, she's a grad student on the project, and so she's taken lead of the backtracking portion. And they've found several times out there where a lynx has killed a snowshoe hare. And when they kill a snowshoe hare, what typically is left is like, the stomach and the intestines. So just like, a house cat will kill a mouse but not eat that. They don't want, you know, the vegetable matter or whatever is in their preys.
All meat. So there'll be that left oftentimes like a foot and then a patch of hide from their back. And several times now they have found where a snowshoe hare was killed by lynx. And then some creepy little squirrel has come and stolen the hide and, like, stashed it up in a tree like a weird little, I don't know, souvenir of the snowshoe hair kill. But they're such good trackers that they could put that all together.
And so the stories that you can read in the snow are, they're just. Yeah, it's really cool. It's fun.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm sure that my trucking skills are not near on their level. But, you know, I was in Colorado for so many years, and the wintertime was my favorite for that. The stories that you can find when you're on a hike, you know, somewhere deep in, like, the Rocky Mountain National park or, or anywhere in the mountains, you're just like, oh, it went that way, that way. And then I'm like. And then I'm that person that's like, going up the random steep valley, my boy.
Oh, I'm sure that. Yeah, hiking with me in the winter time is probably very annoying for everybody else is. I'm just like, oh, we gotta go down there. Like, the moose went this way and then it bedded down here. And do you see? It's been here.
[00:51:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't imagine not walking those stories out. It's, I like to say, when it snows and you're out tracking, it's like somebody's turn the lights on in the room. You suddenly realize how much life is going on on the landscape when it snows. It's so funny.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Snow and mud. Absolute best. Like, so many people avoid them. I'm like, that's the best time.
[00:52:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: You might get a little muddy and a little cold, but it's.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. We pull over for every, like, retreating puddle where there's that perfect mud. You gotta check those.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yes.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: When I was.
Before I left Colorado, I was on the western side of Rocky Mountain National park, and there was all of these muddy tracks everywhere. And there were some bears that would come through, especially after all the tourists and tour season had ended. And I was, like, tracking bears. Like, they went, like, right past the cabin, and, like, all the roads were dirt, so they were dirt roads. And there's always, oh, my gosh. Oh, so much fun. And just, like, getting that perfect, like, fresh, like, a few hours old track and, like, just freaking out, and nobody understands why you're freaking out. They're like, oh, no, there was a bear. It's like, no, this is awesome.
[00:52:49] Speaker B: No, I'm right there with you. I get it. I get it.
[00:52:54] Speaker A: Oh, total nerding out. Just. Yeah. To see the story.
[00:52:57] Speaker B: It's like we were right here.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: We were right together.
Okay, back. Anyways, back from nerding out for a second. So I was looking, as I was getting ready for this interview and everything, I saw that there was a. And please tell me more about this. I didn't have quite time to dive too deep into it. Did I see that there was a recovery plan release?
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Yes, pretty recently.
[00:53:20] Speaker A: Like two months ago or something.
[00:53:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:23] Speaker A: Could you tell me all about that? What's in that?
Are you optimistic? What do you think about it? All the.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I am really excited that the recovery plan has come out. It's draft form still, but it basically, when a species is listed, it should have a recovery plan. And so there's goals in that. In that plan, they outline the criteria for when that species will be considered recovered, and then there are actions in a recovery implementation plan.
And so having that structure around lynx conservation is a really wonderful thing. And I think that a lot of really great minds and research went into this plan. The timing of it.
Well, I should say maybe the timing of lynx and wildfire research is a little too slow. I wish that we knew more about how lynx in Washington at least, but across the west, really are using burned habitats, because we just don't have enough research there to have a good plan around managing burned lynx habitat. And so, yeah, that's another reason why this research, to me, feels really urgent, because as we're developing these plans, I think we need to make sure that we're considering fire prone landscapes. Because one thing we know about Lynx is while they're really specific to needing snowshoe hares and needing thick forest, the exact type of forest can vary. And so, you know, we've got lynx in northern Maine, and they exist on a landscape that's heavily impacted by logging. And they're doing really well there because the forest that is coming back, it's been long enough that it's just coming back like gangbusters. And it's snowshoe hare factory. So lynx there are seeming to really benefit from this timber management practices that are happening there now, say more in the Rocky Mountains. The research there is finding that the lynx need mature forests. So, like, forests that have gotten to a stage where they're kind of decadent and, like, you can picture trees are falling, and so that's opening up the canopy in places, and more trees are growing up, and branches from the big trees are low down to the ground. So it's got this really thick forest structure because it's a super mature forest.
Here in Washington, we have some of that leftover mature forest because of the fire suppression era and because naturally, you'll have patches of that. But sort of applying, you know, what we know about the Rockies and where links are there to our forest doesn't work well because we don't really have a future or an option of making a whole lot of mature forest because of the direction fires are going here. And so for that reason, I think it's important that we incorporate. Once we've got all this knowledge about links and fire, we incorporate that into our conservation plans.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: Okay, so that makes total sense. So then what is being proposed?
Are, like, are there reintroduction plans, like, actually taking cats from other places to bring them in? Is it all just land management?
Yeah. Like, what. What is in this thing that you either agree with or you don't agree with or. Yeah.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: Yeah. It's, by and large, habitat management.
And so, again, I think that we've. We've got a great handle on that in other places. For Washington, again, we need to learn more. We know enough to get started and know the basics. But really, this is kind of a brand new landscape. It has really, really changed from the menu of options that Lincs had in the early two thousands when studies were done here. And it's a different menu of options than links in other areas of the country have. And so this is just such a clear place where research is the foundation for our conservation plans. And until you've got that research done. It's hard to make a really finely tuned, effective plan.
Right now in the North Cascades, there seems to be good connectivity with BC. And so we've had collared cats go up to BC. We know that there's flow there. Now, there is a really cool reintroduction project going on in the Kettle Mountains, which are east of the North Cascades, and there hasn't been a population there since. I think, let's see, this might not be completely right, but I think there hasn't been a resident population. Maybe I shouldn't even say there hasn't been a resident population in here for a long time, but we believe that there used to be historically from, and this is from trapping records, which can be a pretty rough. A rough measuring stick, but there was, you know, once a population there. And so the Colville tribe and conservation Northwest are actually doing a reintroduction there. And I'm certainly not an expert on this project, and I encourage people to look into it more, but they are having great success with working with canadian trappers who have their own trap lines to take those links and reintroduce them into this mountain range in Washington. And if that population indeed does really establish that's not only a win for that landscape, but it's also just sort of gives us a little more resilience, because not all of our links are in one place should something catastrophic happen.
And so that's another really neat project that's going on in Washington.
[00:59:55] Speaker A: Oh, how cool. I don't even know about that. That's awesome. But, yeah, that makes total sense. If you have.
If it. Because I agree with that. Reintroductions make sense when it is impossible or nearly impossible for wildlife to naturally migrate there.
If they can't get there, then we need to help them. But if they can, then that makes total sense. That's a whole lot of resources.
There's a lot of potential downsides to reintroduction. So if it sounds like they're connected and they're going to make it there naturally, then let's just make sure they have amazing habitat for when they finally arrive. So that's really good to hear. Like, I didn't realize how connected they were with BC.
So, yeah, that makes total sense. So then what is the timeline then? When do you think that? Is it this, like a 3510 year study, or I guess, what is the deadline that you hope to have answers to, then be able to have informed decisions moving forward about this is what the research says we propose you should do this, this or this Washington state and go from there.
[01:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So we have, well, there's a couple things that are going to determine the length of this study. One is funding. We have funding for three years of this project and we're in year, you know, two. Halfway through year two, I would, I mean, I feel on the one hand, like, the sooner we can wrap up and start analyzing and getting answers, the better. But I also want to make sure that we have all the data that we need so we're not, we're not over collecting, but I certainly don't want to under collect data. And so with this type of data collection, especially the trapping and coloring, it's really hard.
You know, any, you're trying to connect with an animal that is so few and far between on the landscape. I mean, our study areas, you know, I don't know, approximately probably 100,000 acres. And my, my guess, and again, this is anecdotal, is that there's maybe, you know, maybe twelve in the area.
And so there's just, the numbers are not in. Our favorite, the study area is hard to work in. There's not a lot of access. It's wintertime, so we're all on snowmobile. It's, yeah, it's just a really remote, difficult place to work. So logistics are hard. And then the cats don't usually cooperate like we can, you know, have, have all of our traps out there and throw all of our trapping tricks at them. And 1 may have the type of personality where they just walk right in the trap and another may just completely avoid that trap the entire trapping season. And so it's really hard to trap these, to trap these guys, to get, to get gps collars on them. So depending on how quickly that happens, we may try to tack on another year of that. But that's, again, that's, that's just dependent on how things go and on funding and that sort of thing. So.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: Oh, that is so funny. And that I completely relate. When I was just in the Pontanao, we support ocelot research at visit San Francisco. And Anjike, he set out all of these traps and they were so perfect. He knows exactly, like the favorite food, the beta. They love, apparently bacon. Ocelots love bacon. So there was like, oh, really? Yeah, yeah. And they have tried, he's been studying these cats in this, on this landscape for a long time and everything was set out, had all of these traps, not one. And the entire time that we were there, because we're going to help them process, you know the oscillator and watch everything they do. There's professional vet there, everything.
And so it's just so funny. Bring that up because you can have the best laid plan, but cats are cats are cats. It doesn't matter where you are. Oh, but he's like, oh, he was so disappointed because. Yeah, because we know, help funding the research and we were all there and everything, but it's like, that's just the reality of it. And if the cats are smarter, I mean, because there's even the camera traps on it, too. And, like, he had film of the cats coming, smelling it, but just walking away. Or we got crab eating foxes, and one of them and its mate was just hung out as it was waiting, but no ocelots and all of the traps they set out.
[01:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really. It's a challenge and it's tricky. And you think that you're getting good at it, and then one teaches you, it just, like, slaps you down and it's like, no, no, no. We have. We've had everything from, let's see. So we began our trapping season, you know, mid January ish. And right off the bat, we had a lynx that we'd put out. We'd done a little pre baiting, so we put a chunk of roadkill deer out. We try to get a lynx interested in that and used to walking near a trap and eating that bait and getting this positive feedback.
So we had a lynx come pretty early on, and it was just instantly into the bait, gobbled it down, set the trap that night. We put the bait in the trap that night, he gets trapped, and so you're feeling pretty good. You're like, oh, yeah, we got this. Yeah, we've got, we've got this down. Well, we've caught one other lynx that was like that, super eager to eat the. To eat the bait. And so we got him collared, and then in the last, I think it's been almost two weeks now, and we haven't caught another lynx, but again, we've got. We've got these cameras on all of our traps, and it's the same thing. It's these links that will come, and we got. We got photos of one lynx, and it's back to the camera and it's facing the trap and it's sitting there and it's looking at the trap, and it walks a little closer and it sits down and it looks at the trap and then it just walks away. That's it where we got photos the other day. So breeding season is ramping up, and a female came to the trap, but doesn't appear to be very interested in the trap, although she did scent mark on it. So they'll spray a little bit of pee. She does that, walks off. Not even another glance at the trap. And 40 minutes later, here comes one of our collared males. He doesn't glance at the trap, which, that's fine, because he's already got a collar on, but insulting.
But he sniffs where she sprayed. He sprays, and then he keeps going, following her, you know, he exits, exits the screen in the same direction.
And then the other funny thing we got on camera the other day is we had a lynx that there was a little bit of blood from the bait in the snow right in front of it, in front of the trap. Completely ignores the trap, but spends ten minutes just rolling and rubbing in the snow there and digging at it and totally into it, but just, like, completely ignoring the trap.
So these are the links that start to really kind of become a bee in your bonnet. And these are the guys we're dealing with now. So I hope it's just a matter of time, but we'll see.
[01:07:35] Speaker A: Oh, talk about rubbing it in your face. Like, four swings. And seriously, especially rolling for ten minutes in front of.
[01:07:44] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: Oh, this is the real stuff. This is the reality, you know?
[01:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:07:51] Speaker A: This is, like, actually what it takes. It's like, okay, yes, let me present all this data, but let me tell you about this dang cat that wouldn't freaking get in the trap.
[01:08:01] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my God, it's so frustrating, but fun at the same time. It's fun to try to understand them and, like, get in their head and figure out how you're gonna get them in the trap.
[01:08:13] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. So cool. And it's so cool that we're sitting down when you're right in the middle of all of this where it's just like, you know, this is all the data, the 15 years of research on this that we have so far. You know, this is all, it's, like, all culminating on this moment. Like, we have a draft restoration plan for bringing back the links, and we are in another year and a half of data, and we should, like, have, like, will be ready to, like, ramp this up and really go.
[01:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:41] Speaker A: Like, that is so exciting to also hear that there's another project going on where there's going to be an actual formal reintroduction. Like, oh, my gosh, so cool. We're really bringing back the links. It's amazing.
[01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope so.
[01:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like, being in Colorado, like, the population is so low there. It was like, what, maybe 1015 individuals they estimate or something like that. Something crazy low.
And obviously, I love lynx, and so I love all the cats. I have a particular fondness of them, and so to think that we're going to have more. That there's going to be more areas to see them and follow their tracks is just.
[01:09:18] Speaker B: Gosh, it's just exciting.
[01:09:20] Speaker A: Oh, it's so exciting.
A year and a half, you know, when it's like, Brooke, we have an update.
[01:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I. And I hope that it's positive. I mean, I. I am optimistic, but cautiously slow. Cautiously so. I mean, there's the wildfires, mega fires, I should say, are not stopping, and we don't have a handle on that. And this winter, we're having this crazy low snow pack. I am already bracing myself for this summer, because, really, here in the North Cascades, we're.
We could. It's conceivable that we could have enough more megafires in quick succession that we would lose our critical mass of habitat. It's also entirely possible that the study area that we're in right now, the burn that we're seeing come back to life, could reburn. That's the big fear, because just as it's coming back online as lynx habitat, it's also getting to a point where it could be primed to burn again. So I don't want to, like, I don't want to be a huge bummer, but I also don't want to feel like, oh, we've got this in the bag, because there's. There's a lot stacked against them still. And there's also just the fact that climate change is changing and shrinking our snow pack, and they are a deep, snow adapted species. And so, you know, there. Our option is, you know, eliminating emissions and getting a serious reversal on climate change, which, you know, can.
[01:11:01] Speaker A: Feels impossible.
[01:11:02] Speaker B: So, yeah, I don't. I don't want to be a huge bummer, but it's not time to take our feet off the gas yet, that's for sure.
[01:11:10] Speaker A: Oh, I completely know what you mean. I've always said that I'm a realistic optimist. I know the truth. Yeah, I am fully aware of what's actually going on and, like, the reality of things. But at the exact same time, I still am optimistic that we will figure it out and that we will keep our wild here, because if we don't have that, then why the hell are we doing this? You know, you don't have hope. If you aren't optimistic in some sense, then, then, you know, why do this? But also can't be naive or can't be intentionally blind. You know, like, this is the reality situation, just like you said. The reality is all this could go up in flames and all of our work is going to go out the window. That could easily happen just as much as it won't. So.
[01:11:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:11:58] Speaker A: So that's what I'm like. I'm just a realistic optimist.
[01:12:01] Speaker B: I like that.
[01:12:05] Speaker A: There is to make a little bit of a switch here as I was like, looking in all of your home ranges work.
There's one particular thing I wanted to ask a little bit more about having lived in Colorado and, and everything, and that was your work on wildlife recreation dynamics and personally seeing in the time that I was there just how crazy the influx of people was into these beautiful habitats and how the effect on wildlife was having in the landscape. But at the same time, we want people to recreate outdoors, but then at the same time it's being destroyed because it said recreation. I would like to hear more about this.
What have you studied and what did you find? What did you discover? I intentionally did not dive too much into this because I want you to teach me all about it. So, yeah. What is this wildlife recreation dynamics that you looked into?
[01:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really complicated and in a lot of ways, kind of emotionally charged subject.
So the work we did, we were contracted by conservation Northwest, a Washington based conservation group, to do a literature synthesis on the work that has been done. So we didn't do a research project, but we synthesized the research that having done it was a literature review and we put together a big report. And overall, some main themes really floated to the surface as being fairly consistent.
And we dove in species by species for some certain animals of interest to the Pacific Northwest. But really, it was these overarching themes, I think, that are the main takeaways.
One is that across the globe, across these many, many, many studies that have been done by and large, yes, recreation impacts wildlife. And it's not any one certain type of recreation. It's not motorized versus non motorized. It's recreation. And.
Well, let's see. I guess I would say it's threshold dependent. So, you know, a lot of animals can, can survive perfectly well and their, their population is not impacted by certain levels of recreation. But. But what we find is that when the number of recreators out there hits a certain threshold and that threshold is going to depend on the species. It's going to depend on the habitat. It's going to depend on the footprint of that recreation. It depends on a lot of different things that sets that threshold. But there's, by and large, a point at which recreation begins to impact species. And it's a hard thing to show in a study because it's one thing to say, well, when a biker rides by, it causes the deer to run 500 yards. And there are things that we can conclude from that. The more often a deer is having to run instead of resting or feeding, the more energy it's expending. And at some point, that amount of energy expended is going to impact maybe its ability to feed itself or to reproduce or whatever. And at some point, if that's happening with enough of those deer, it's going to affect that population. But getting from here comes the biker to the population is being impacted is a tough study. But when you put all these studies together, it's clear that with the explosion of recreation that we're having, we're having an impact out there. One thing that I think is really interesting is that it's often. Well, let's see.
There was a survey done among recreators where they asked, who do you think is having the impact on wildlife? And what emerged was that each recreation group thought it was the other recreation group.
[01:16:39] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[01:16:40] Speaker B: So we, I think, as outdoor recreators, have a hard time feeling in our, like what we're doing out there is impactful. And I think where a lot of that disconnect happens is that as non motorized, quiet recreators, it feels like we should be having very little impact, whereas the reverse is often true. People who are out there just walking and hiking are often causing more disturbance, and that's because they're in the presence of wildlife longer, because we're moving slower than, say, an ATV, but also because the human form is just scary. We are seen as a predator, and so we evoke that fear response. And so, unfortunately, even quiet, non motorized recreation, we have to count ourselves in as one of the groups out there that is, that is having an impact. There are also basic guidelines or basic rules of thumb that emerge in the literature, which are that unpredictable recreation is more impactful. And so staying on trails can lessen impact to wildlife. Sometimes animals can adjust their activity patterns, some to avoid people, so they may become more active at nighttime. And so that's a tactic we can use to manage recreation, limiting people going out during that twilight time and at night and sort of concentrating recreation to the daytime. And then the other thing is just limiting our footprint. Like, if animals have a place where they can escape to, to find areas where there aren't as many people, that's really helpful. And so a lot of times, as recreators, we want to go to the place where there's less people and find that solitude for ourselves. And that is really important. But unfortunately, that doesn't marry up with what might be most beneficial to wildlife, which is to contain that footprint rather than spreading people out over the landscape.
[01:18:59] Speaker A: That is very interesting and unfortunate.
As somebody who loves to get out, away from people.
[01:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I feel the same thing. Yeah, I feel the same thing. And I think that there's a place for that. I think the job of managers is to really high grade, you know, a sensitive species that's maybe struggling and an important habitat and at a sensitive time of year. So, for example, maybe during the nesting season is time to limit recreation in an area. So that, for example, golden eagles are really sensitive to hikers and atv's and recreation. So if you can, or, sorry, in particular when they're nesting. And so if we can consider that and manage recreation during those sensitive times, that'll be a more impactful management strategy for the wildlife and it will allow other times a year for humans to enjoy that area. Yeah, that's finding those balances.
[01:20:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. There was this park that's not too far from Denver that I would go to every once in a while called centennial cone, and half of the park was actually closed for half the year because it was very important elk breeding and calving area.
So that's a really good example of that.
And then, of course, you know, like Rocky Mountain National park, which was my favorite area when I was in Colorado. I would go all the time for the wildlife. Just there was parts of that what, that would naturally close down just because they were inaccessible.
So for that, that's, I guess that's just a natural way that half the park would be closed. Yeah, but then the other times a year can be kind of crazy. Uh, but, yeah, so that, that is a good. Yeah, so if, if the data is good and as, as long as everybody, you know, follows the rules, you know, pack it in, pack it out, stay on trail, respect wildlife, don't go after the bison. The fluffy cows will hurt you. Um, so scary. Like, be careful of moose, have your bear spray, you know, those kinds of things and. Yeah, just respect them. Um, but, yeah, really, I really, I really wanted to ask more about that. Just. Yeah, because I'm sure you've seen it in Washington. I saw it in my time in Colorado. And just, again, I love that people are getting outside because that's so important to protect, you know, to have. We're not going to protect it if we don't care. But at the same time, the pressure that's being put on natural spaces is getting kind of crazy. So, like, I don't. I don't know what the solution is. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't know. Is it just taking periodical breaks in times of year? Is that, is that the solution?
Yeah. How do we protect our land while also giving people the freedom to go outside and love nature?
Yeah. So it's definitely, like, it's a double edged sword in my view. It's like, please go outside, but don't affect anything. But go outside. But, like.
Don't go, but like.
[01:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's really important that we as the public and people who love the outdoors and love to recreate a start to recognize that no matter the recreation type, we're just to this point where it's the sheer numbers that is impactful and that the research shows that that's just sort of an objective truth, that there are enough people out there recreating that in some cases it's impactful. And so we certainly don't want people to not go out there because you're right. Like, that is help. Being out in nature obviously helps sort of garner our own want to be involved with conservation, or at least support conservation. It's so important to build that connection with the natural world, but we need to start being a little more thoughtful about it. And that's where, you know, there are, there are ways that we can manage recreation that's going to be less impactful. And, and hopefully we can come up, it's not easy, but hopefully we can come up with compromises where we're, we're recreating in a responsible way, but we're also preserving some space and solitude at sensitive times and for sensitive species. And that can be really uncomfortable because I think we're all used to recreating in the way that we want and have these special places that we like to go, but it is going to require some sacrifice on our parts in some cases where we have to say, I just, you know, we can't have people running amok in this place at x time of year. And that's, that's maybe hard to accept, but we're just to that point where we have enough people out there that we can't just keep going willy nilly.
[01:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And I can completely relate to that because, like, I'm still butthurt that the timed reservations at Rocky Mountain National park and a lot of national parks are starting to do this. And, like, I get it. I absolutely get it. There was too many people that were coming in the park. It just. It was. The influx was mad. And to get a pass to go into the park, even as a resident, was almost impossible. And as somebody, like, I lived outside of the park, and even I would have to get my own passes to go in. And that's infuriating, you know? Yeah, but I also get it. Like, I completely understand. So I would just whine and bitch and moan, but at the same time, I'm like. But I get it. Like, I understand why I saw the crowds. I understood. I saw how people just didn't understand how to behave around this dangerous wildlife like elk and moose. And then, of course, when Trowbridge Road was open, all of these very sensitive species, you have your pika up there. You have your yellow bellied marmots, you have everything else, goats, you know, all these other type of. Well, guess I don't think mountain goats are up there. That's an. They're not even supposed to be there. Um, but, like, your bighorn sheep, you know, like, all these different species, um, and people not knowing how to be up there safely. So, like, I get it. Like, I really do. Um, at the same time, and I know a lot of California parks, I think, like, yosemite now has a timed reservation system in place, and some other. The big parks, I'm sure do as well. I don't know if they have any in Washington. Like a Olympic or is that Olympic? Olympia. What's the big Olympic national park? Olympic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get it. I understand.
I don't like it, but I support it.
[01:26:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think this.
Yeah, I think that's where a lot of people are at, and it's. It's. I think another, then this is just my idea about human psychology. I'm not an expert or anything, but I feel like part of what's difficult with this is that so many people that do recreate consider themselves to be on the side of conservation, and they are on the side of conservation. And so it's really hard to then have to sort of see the finger pointing back at yourself. Right. You know, here's a group of people that consider themselves conservationists and are, but now have to recognize that in some cases, they could be having a negative impact on the animals that they're out there trying to enjoy and love. Yeah, it's. It's tricky.
[01:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes putting the finger back to yourself is like the hardest thing. I mean, you know, just admitting that just you being on that landscape is part of it, too, even if it's, you know, you're doing everything the right way, like, oh, yeah, I completely understand. I mean, I was there. I would always try. I mean, like, if I deserve something, I did. I tried not to, but just. Yeah, by my presence being a large. Which animal on the landscape is going to dissert things next? I would love to switch it back to you for a second.
I absolutely love asking this question to all of my guests because I never know what they're going to say.
You have now been working in wildlife research, which I'm sure is a lot of people's dream for a long time now. And I know you've probably seen the really good and the really bad of that. Both sides. There's nothing is all roses and just dreams and all the time unicorns and rainbows. It's just not how this works. So with that, and you also work with people that are starting their careers, too. What piece of advice do you have that you would like us to walk away from? Is there like some mentorship things that you love to give that you keep seeing a theme that come through a lot with the people that you mentor? What would those be? What should we walk away with?
[01:28:19] Speaker B: I think what comes to mind first for me is, again, and I talked about this a little bit earlier, but I think there's a little bit of a trend away from people really learning and getting excited about and getting good at those, just how it's calling, just like old fashioned naturalist skills.
And I think that's because maybe there's less people growing up in the outdoors and in the country, there's maybe a little bit of wildlife research leaning in some cases more towards techniques that are less field based. And I really, all of those tools, those models, the less field based techniques are so important and add so much. But I would hate to see this field get too far away from the foundation of Wildlife research, which has got to be rooted in observing what's going on out there and knowing what to look for when you're out there. And so I just really encourage people to learn their birds, learn their bird songs, learn their track and sign, learn how to id the plants in the area, learn everything you can about the ecology, because we need as many eyes in the woods as we can get, as many people that are out there just keeping tabs and noticing. And there are so many really cool resources out there for learning naturalist skills. There's some wonderful track and sign books and organizations that can help you learn those skills. And I think that the foundation of all good wildlife research is really based in those skills and based in those field skills. And so, yeah, I think just really encouraging people to spend that time outdoors just like we were. I mean, that, of course, makes you think about the recreation issues, but, you know, just as a wildlife biologist, not getting too far from the field. And I think another thing that we talk about a lot here at home range and sort of one of our formal organization values is the importance of being a naturalist, being a biologist in a place long term, I think it's really great to get to know a lot of different environments and ecosystems and areas of the country and cultures of communities and the way that they interact with the outdoors. And I did that for a long time and I think that's important.
But at this point in my career, for me, it feels really important and it feels important for home range to be connected to place and to be sort of that through line, that sort of anchor of wildlife management. There's a lot of turnover and flux in a lot of the wildlife research and management agencies. And here, for example, sort of the legacy biologists that we have that have been here for 30 years, 40 years, are either retired or about to retire in the next few years. And that is a loss for conservation in this area. And so one of the things we're trying to do is sort of taking the torch to be that long term biology, how to say it, to be that long term presence on this landscape so that we can continue to watch it and track it over time. And so I, I would encourage people to get out there and explore different areas, but not to forget the value of being a long term presence in an area and a landscape and to get to that deeper knowledge level with that ecosystem and landscape.
[01:32:58] Speaker A: Oh, that's such great advice. I could not agree more with that. And so people could come take field courses with you, as you were talking about. If somebody is interested in that, what is that field course like? How many days is it like, is it just for new biologists? Is it somebody who wants to sharpen their skills? Or if somebody, what if they just want to take it for the hell of it? Like, what about this? Yeah, what, what is this field for? Course that people can get true in the field experience doing.
[01:33:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
So the field courses that we do, there's two that are being offered this summer, and these are led, like I said, by Anna Makowitz, and she's put together some wonderful courses, and they're several day courses. And so we've. We've mostly. The courses have mostly been young biologists maybe in college or about to graduate, but we've also had people who are maybe switching careers and getting, you know, into wildlife biology that way, or just people who are interested and want to take the courses. And everybody, you know, I think everybody gets different things out of it, and, but everybody has a wonderful time, and it's, there. There's so smaller groups, and so it's. It's not only just learning the skills, but it's everything around that. It's the, you know, whether we're camping or staying on a small campus, you're learning from the group, and then every day is spent learning. And so, for example, we have in June a wildlife field techniques course that's going to be here in Washington, in Mazama, which is in the North Cascades, in the Met how valley. And that is sort of basic field techniques. That's the one where. Where it's everything from data collection to setting cameras, how to use radio telemetry, track and sign evaluation. And then that comes together. That culminates in a day where we. Where we have mock kill sites set up. We use, actually use roadkill deer. And so everybody gets to practice using their telemetry to find the kill and set up a camera on it and evaluate the kill site to see what predator they think killed the deer, whether it was killed by a predator, etcetera. And so that's a really great course to get foundational skills for mammals research.
Super fun. We're doing one. This one, unfortunately, is full at the moment. There is a waiting list for a field techniques course in Montana, and this is a LGBTQ affinity course. Specifically, that one is in July, end of July. And then in August, there's. There's two back to back courses. And the first part is ethical live trapping. And so we have experts in different trapping techniques come and teach box trapping, bear culvert trapping, foothold trapping, and all, you know, with, coming from the angle of trapping for research. And so, you know, under those circumstances, you're really trying to trap animals in the least impactful way you can. And then right on the heels of that, and most people take it together, is the class with Doctor Mark Johnson, who's been teaching chemical immobilization so how to drug animals so that you can handle them for a very long time. And he teaches all over, and he'll come and teach the wildlife handling and chemical mobilization course. And so it's a nice pairing because, you know, often or almost always in the field, you're trapping and then you're, then you're doing the chemical immobilization. And so that's hands on. We get goats that students get to practice on and actually immobilize them. So it's a really cool experience. And that one is in the Wenatchee area in Washington. But we generally get people from, from all over.
And so they're really fun. They're a super fun course. And the other thing I'll say is that we try to set it up so that it's not just learning various skills, but a mentorship experience. We often bring in other biologists for just campfire chats or for sort of, you know, a panel of experts that you get to learn from and just have informal hangout time and chat time with. But it's also a way to sort of build your network, which in wildlife work can be so important to have a network of people, whether they're helping you get jobs or giving you advice or letting you know, hey, there's this project that's come up that you could be interested in that sort of thing. So it's a really well rounded experience, I think. And if people are interested.
Yeah, they are super fun. Yeah. If people are interested, our website is where you can register and learn more about them. And that's just homerange.org dot amazing.
[01:38:27] Speaker A: And I'm assuming that's probably the best place to just learn more in general. And do you have, like, Instagram, Facebook, you know, all of the things.
[01:38:36] Speaker B: Yes. So we've got our website and then we've got our Instagram, which is home range wildlife.
Home rangewildlife. Sorry, I don't. Instagram is new for me. I don't. I don't have my own, and so I'm not very good at it. Yes. But it'someranged wildlife. And our Facebook is home range wildlife research.
[01:39:01] Speaker A: Just. So just search home range and it'll be there.
[01:39:04] Speaker B: It'll be there. Yeah, yeah.
[01:39:06] Speaker A: And of course, I always supply all those links in the show notes at rewatology. So everyone just find this episode, go to realwadology.com, and then you don't have to worry about the handles are all the links will be right there and then, of course, yeah, definitely check out the website to go to one of those courses. I'm so jealous. That sounds like so much fun. I was just like, we could just have like a guest person. I would love to do that.
I don't actually need those skills because I do something different, but I'm in a completely different field now. But just the biologist side of me just, ah, just, I'm like geeking out just thinking about it. Oh my God, this just sounds like so much fun because sometimes, you know, when you get in your career, you miss things like that. Like I miss just being in the field and just essentially just rolling in the dirt.
[01:39:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:39:56] Speaker A: Having fun tracking and stuff like that. I miss that so much. Oh, but amazing. Carmen, thank you so much for sitting down and sharing all of your just incredible knowledge on this really cool species. I know, I learned so much. I'm sure that everybody else did as well. So thanks again. We'll have to sit down and well, whenever and like at least a year and a half because we need to hear what these results are. I need to hear how the research went and all of those things, you know, like, just sounds perfect.
[01:40:27] Speaker B: That would be super fun. Thank you so much. This is really fun. And I'm just, yeah, I'm, I'm always excited to geek out about this stuff. So I hope that, that, yeah, people are interested and learned something and yeah, maybe got excited about it. So.
[01:40:45] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
[email protected] if you if you enjoyed todays conversation and want to stay connected with the Rewallodology community, hit that subscribe button and rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app. I read every comment left across the shows platforms and your feedback truly does mean the world to me.
Also, please follow the show on your favorite social media app. Join the Rewadolges Facebook group and sign up for the weekly Rewa Dolgy newsletter.
In the newsletter, I share recent episodes, the latest conservation news, opportunities from across the field, and updates from past guests.
If you're feeling inspired and would like to make a financial contribution to the show, head on over to rewallodology.com and donate directly to the show through PayPal or purchase a piece of swag to show off your rewad algal love.
Remember, rewilding isn't just a concept, it's a call to action. Whether it's supporting a local conservation project reducing your own impact or simply sharing the knowledge you've gained. Today, you have the power to make a difference.
A big thank you to the guests that come onto the show and share their knowledge with all of us and to all of you rewad algae listeners for making the show everything it is today.
This is Brooke signing off. Remember, together we will rewild the planet.
