[00:00:00] Speaker A: In the rugged carpathian mountains of Romania, where ancient forests whisper tales of bygone eras, a long lost giant is making a triumphant return. The european bison, once pushed to the brink of extinction, is now reshaping the landscape and our understanding of conservation and rewilding.
Welcome back to rewildology, the nature podcast that explores explores the human side of conservation, travel, and rewounding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today, we're diving into the incredible european bison reintroduction project in Romania. Our expert guest is Gabriel Rotid, wildlife ecologist for the Life with Bison project at WWF Romania.
Gabriel takes us through the projects evolution from its beginning to its current role as a shining example of rewilding in Europe. Along the way, we uncover the hurdles, victories, and surprises the project has encountered. Gabriel then walks us through the science powering this project, including some remarkable findings on carbon capture.
Lastly, we explored the management plan of the herdhead, how the return of these giants is changing life for local communities, and Gabriet's hopes for the future.
Before we begin, really quickly, if you're enjoying the show, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, leave us a rating and review, and reach out with your questions and comments on social media or through the website. Your insights might even inspire a future episode or two.
All right, everyone, please enjoy this science filled conversation with Gabri.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Well, hi, Gabri. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today and exploring this very exciting project that just blew up in the first half of 2024. And when I saw this, I was like, okay, I have to get an expert on to talk about it because I have so, so many questions. So european bison, one does not simply fall into studying them. Were you always interested in studying megafauna?
[00:02:25] Speaker C: Right. So this is a very funny question, actually. So my main interest since my bachelor was actually on large carnivores, and I was really into large carnivores. So I was, I was just ignoring everything else. Then during my master degree, which was at University of Helsinki, I was very happy because I thought, okay, I have the opportunity of studying large carnivores in Kenya because we had different projects there. But then because of the pandemic, the university just closed down all the classes. And then I was there. Okay, I will do still my dissertation on large carnivores, but I have so much free time that, okay, I want to do an internship somewhere. And then with a very good friend, we started sending hundreds of emails to different institutes, organizations around the world about large carnivores. And suddenly only very few replied. And suddenly the large mammal institute in Poland, in beloved forest, they replied, and they said, okay, we might have something from you, but not on large carnivores. It will be on large herbivores.
I was unsure. I was quite unsure because I was really on this direction. But then I said, okay, let's give it a try. And then I really have enjoyed that opportunity. So what we did, we went through a very large data set of large herbivores, and then we tried to parameterize how they interact with the vegetation, so whether they forage at the lower level, at the higher level, how this behavior is different across the different species and across these species. We also had european bison, which I found quite funny, funny species that we don't find it quite often, usually in some places. And then after that, after I gradated, I found an opportunity to work at WWF Romania on european bison. And I said, okay, let's go for it. So then my interest for dutch carnivore was just faded away. And now my interest is more on large mammals in general. And also by studying this species, I just understood how important herbivores are for both carnivores, but also for the vegetation.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: So the full cycle here we have the vegetation. I mean, large carnivores, I'm sure will always be at your heart, especially in these ecosystems that you're working in that we're going to talk about in a second. So could you actually give us some more background? Then? What is this bison reintroduction program that you started working in Romania? Like, what are the big goals?
Yeah, just start there and then we'll get into history of it.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: All right, so very quickly, what about european bison? Where is this species coming from? So european bison was roaming across Europe for many, many millennia, but then because of the wars specifically and human persecution, they just declined. They declined so much that they got extinct into the wild, and then they were left only in some geological gardens, in some reserves, and basically 54 individuals were just left. And then.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: Oh, that's it.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Only 54 in all of Europe?
[00:05:43] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes. 54 individuals and basically some people in Poland. Then they decided, okay, let's bring back this species. So from captivity, they started breeding the species, being very careful about the genetic, because, of course, 54 individuals is a very low number and the genetic diversity might be even lower. So then they decided to do this breeding effort. And now we have more than 8000 bison freely roaming across the whole Europe, including Russia and Azerbaijan, where different reintroduction projects are happening and many more are also going to happen. So then in Romania also, they said, okay, there was a reintroduction in Romania a few years ago, which was in the northern Carpathians, but some people said, okay, we think in the southwestern carpet, there is an area where we can really reintroduce the bison. So this area is going under land abandonment. So many people are leaving the area to migrate to bigger cities, and they are leaving these open spaces.
They're leaving them for forestry growth and so on. So therefore, some people said, okay, let's try it. So what they did, they started assessing, okay, is this era suitable for bison? Is it good? And then they said, okay, let's bring the first bison. So since 2014, they've been bringing many bison. And today, I think a total of 120 bison were introduced. And recent studies, we did a genetic study to estimate the population size a few years ago, and we saw that we had 155 bison, but presently they're just growing exponentially. So now we are counting more than 200 bison, and we hope to report official estimates next year from the studies we are doing.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: That is fantastic. Like, talk about an exciting, exciting, exciting project. Anytime we can bring back a mega herbivore or a mega fauna, in any case, onto the landscape, it's just such an exciting story. But obviously, as we know, there's a lot more to this than just opening a truck and putting bison back onto the land. So what is your role in all of this?
[00:08:02] Speaker C: All right, so when I first came here, of course, I worked with bison, but more on data analysis. So I was trying to assess what's the feeding behavior of bison. But then here is a totally different story, because it's not anymore only about the ecology, but also it's about the management. So then my role here is to try to find ecological knowledge. So to derive ecological knowledge and use it to. To guide the management of the species. And specifically, what kind of habitat is bison using, and can we predict some expansion? So how likely will it be in the next years to have some conflicts? Because, of course, we are introducing the species in a landscape which is more remote. I mean, according to what we know here in Europe, it's kind of remote to this landscape, but still people are persisting in the landscape. So we need also to be careful about bison and human interactions. So then mainly it is this deriving ecological knowledge. So, yes, applied ecology, right?
[00:09:10] Speaker B: And, yeah, we're definitely going to get into the numbers of that kind of stuff, too. So let's talk about this bison herd itself.
So maybe what are the behaviors where you mentioned a little bit. Where are they? But could you maybe, like, dive into a little further? What is this study population of bison? It sounds like there was also some in the northern Carpathians. Are you also studying those, too, or are you specifically looking at this southern population that was reintroduced?
And what are some of the exciting findings that you've discovered so far?
[00:09:41] Speaker C: All right, so I will start with the beginning of my work, which it started here in the southwestern Carpe Diane. So my only focus was there for the first years, and there I can give you a concrete example of how it worked. So I've been working with a great team, which is, of now, four rangers, and then with our partners, we are even more. So. We are more than ten people working on the field and working on data. But at that time, we were four people, four rangers and me, and we used to go almost every day on the field to kind of observe where the bison are and what they are doing. And suddenly one ranger told me, look, follow me. I will show you some areas where these bison are roaming very often. And then I started observing that these areas were kind of not very like forest forest areas, but they were open forest areas, so there were some forest gaps. And then I said, okay, let's try to do something. So, since we are in a very dense forest environment and also in a mountainous environment, this is very challenging for estimating population size, counting bison. It is just impossible. It's a very large area, 300. Then it's very hard to just find the bison and count them. So we just said, okay, let's try to collect these cats. We just focus on these very small forest gaps so we don't have to go around all the area, because we thought, okay, they might be using these areas very often. So in one month, we hope that at least once, all the bison should be in these areas. Then in July 2022, we did this, and in one month, we've collected over 300 scats that went there for a genetic analysis in our genetic institute. And we found out that of that 300 scats, we found 92 different bison individuals. And through doing some statistical analysis, we had an estimate of 155 bison, as I've mentioned before. So then what I really loved about this experience is that when I first came, I really tried to learn as much as possible from the renders which have been present since the first day to the bison project. And I was deriving their knowledge, which might not be scientific, but still it's crucial, and it's very important. So I really think that we must really consider all this on ground knowledge. And then since then we started developing some very, some scientific designs to monitor in a more systematic way. And yes, so at the moment what we are trying to do, we are collecting data to estimate again the population size. We want it to be estimated in different years to see the trend of population growth as well. We are trying to understand whether we can identify diverse herds, distinct herds of european bison, and also whether they meet somewhere, they change individuals or they are always the same. We try to identify also with the leading female and so on. And on the other side, we are trying to understand what's the impact of this reintroduction. So how reintroduced in bison could influence the landscape. And in the landscape we mean the large mammal communities and the other species that were already there, the environment itself. So including also the vegetation, but also the human. So also how this reintroduction is influencing the humans. So this is mostly all my work with WWF. On the other side, I started a PhD which aims to understand whether rewilding can really contribute to maintain the grasslands. So what's the issue with the grasslands now in Europe, the issue is that these systems, which are open, were maintained by natural disturbance historically, but then with the human. But then humans have overtaken these roads. So these roads were, for example, natural fires, storms or insect outbreaks, or megafauna, which was maintaining these forest gaps. But since human overtook these roles through pastoralist agricultural practices and different traditional farming practices, now the issue is that these people are migrating to the big cities, are not working anymore on this grasslands or on the other side, they are intensifying their methods, their practices, so they are threatening these systems. And for this reason, the question is, okay, so how can we preserve these landscapes now and then european bison reintroduction could be a form of preservation of these habitats, for example. So then in my PhD, what I'm doing together, the lab, we just gathered, I think, the most comprehensive european bison dataset. So we got european bison gps color. So at the moment we have over 300 individuals that were colored. So as we have this project in Romania, also in many other countries and the regions, we have different projects such this that are doing the same efforts to preserve the species and to recover the species. And then the aim is to understand, okay, is the bison really using the open habitats or is it using forest habitats? And why? Why this question? Because if we go back in time and we look historical evidences, so fossils, we see that these bison were thought to be grazers, to really use only these open landscapes. But now if we take a look on where we can find the bison now they're mostly in forest landscapes. So just in forest. So some people then came up and said, okay, we think that this species might be a refugee species, which it means that it's surviving in an habitat which is not optimal. So they've defined forest as a suboptimal habitat for the bison. And they think that bison should be in these very open landscapes. But these open landscapes still are dominated by humans. So if we think about very big grasslands here in Europe, we. We won't find them without humans, because as I said before, humans are maintaining these systems. So mostly our agro systems, actually. So therefore, we are trying to analyze, okay, is it really true that bison prefer grasslands? So in areas where we have new introductions that just happened in the recent years, where we have lots of grasslands where the human presence is less, are they really using these habitats or they just go everywhere? And now what we are finding, and we hope to write the results in a manuscript soon, is that bison actually are not really selecting for a specific habitat, but mostly they are going just where foraging resources are abundant. So basically, as other ungulate species, they are very generalist, which is great for introductions because it shows that bison is a good candidate species for rewinding. It just adapts everywhere it goes. And the very large body size also will bring a larger impact on the environment. So now about the impact. The issue is that when we say, okay, we introduce the battery, it will have an impact. We might first think about, oh, that's great. It will have a positive impact, but it might have also negative impact. So that's why it's very important to understand now what's happening with the bison that were reintroduced. So then we can guide future reintroduction initiatives and really, and really direct the efforts such that we bring positive effects to the landscapes.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: So when you're out, oh, my gosh, actually, it's really cool, just one moment. That there's 300 bison collared and, like, how much data you've probably been able to collect from that and analyze, that's going to be really exciting. So with your particular population then that you are studying the Carpathians, how then are they using the landscape? What is determining where they go? You said, you know, wherever forge, wherever food is, wherever food is abundant. So, I mean, if anybody thinks of mountains, though, there's going to be different times of year where there's going to be more or less food. So how does that change or modify their behavior depending on what time of year it is?
[00:18:31] Speaker C: So actually, you really tackled a very good point, actually. So seasonality is very important because seasonality varies also the foraging abundance in the area, especially mountainous area, where we might have months with very heavy snows, very cold, and therefore we have less foraging resources for species. And this is a huge issue for bison. So most of their introduction areas during the winter provide artificial feeding, so they provide supplementary feeding for bison, because first they might think because there are not many foraging resources, this might influence the mortality of the bison. So we'll increase the mortality and the reintroduction effort wouldn't be that efficient. But on the other side, when you put the bison in an area where there are a lot of crops, so bison might just go there and find. So if we just think the foraging resources in the forest during winter might be very scarce, but the crops, you might have some plantations that are during winter time, they, of course will go there. And in order to mitigate this conflict, this human bison conflict, so in order to deter bison from crops, they put these feeding stations kinda in the forest or on the forest edge. So the bison are more on that side. And this is really, this might influence actually the behavior of bison and the impact of bison on the environment. And as you say, so in that case, when you have supplementary feeding, that's it, where you put the station, it's there where the bison will go. So this is also what we found in the analysis. But then what happens when you don't have artificial feeding? And this is very special about our study area in the southwestern Carpathians, we don't provide supplementary feeding during winter time. Now, of course, during. So I'm working since almost three years in this study area, and we didn't have a really hard winter. We really had very, very few weeks of snow, which in the past, the rangers told me that in the past, when there was heavy snow, bison used to come closer to the villages and stay just there, but now they're just roaming around everywhere because it's not an issue. And also what's very special about our study area is the forest management. So the study area itself a protected area, and alpha knot, but it doesn't really matter that it's a protected area because it's a natural 2000 site. So it's a site where you can still have forestry practices, you can still hunt, you still have human activities inside.
So therefore, what's very special is that the forest management follows a practice that's called cutting in forest ice, or progressive cutting, where they go in a forest and they do small cuts inside the forest. So it's a very small perimeter. So what happens when they first do this? There will be vegetation regrowing there and mostly there will be shrubs. And the species is called robus. It might be raspberry. Actually, it's raspberry.
And bison love this plant. Not only bison, but all the ungulates. Red deer, rod deer, also birds love the plants, not for the leaves, but for the fruits. So actually the forest management is creating this, these areas where they really will have large mammal, a very high large mammal density. So therefore, to the question where the bass are roaming during winter, mostly, I think that in these forest gaps. In these forest, yes, in these forest gaps.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: And so all of that, I'm hoping you can shed light and help me understand this. So, in May 2024, there was this very exciting paper article that was released in the Guardian. It was like headline news, like we're both a part of the Global Rewilding alliance. And it was like, oh, my gosh, it's like all this science is proving that european bison, if they, if we recover the herds, can sequester x, y or z amount of carbon. I'm just going to read this paragraph to you, and I'm hoping that you can help us understand how this actually works. So, this is from the Guardian. I'll make sure links are in the show notes if anybody wants to read the full article, but here it is. So, the european bison herd grazing in an area of nearly 50 grassland within the wider. Oh, Tarku. Is that how you say that?
[00:23:08] Speaker C: Tarku Mountains? Yes.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Woo.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: All right. There was, there's like a weird doohickey on the tee, and I wasn't quite sure. Anyways, was found to potentially capture an additional 54,000 tons of carbon a year. That is nearly 9.8 times more carbon than without the bison. Although the report authors noted that the 9.8 figure could be up to 55% higher or lower, so making the median estimate uncertain. This corresponds to the nearly CO2 released by a median of 53,000 average us patrol cars, or 84,000. Using the higher figure, or a median of 123,000 average european cars, due to their higher energy efficiency, the researcher said, okay, that was a whole bunch of numbers I just spewed out there.
What does this mean? How could you first maybe give a little bit of context, how are these numbers even formulated? And what does this actually mean for the bigger picture here?
[00:24:11] Speaker C: Yes, so now we are talking about. So this field is, is zoo geochemistry, which is a field I really love, is basically how species are influencing the nutrient cycles and also the carbon cycles. So basically, there are different papers already from the eighties or the nineties assessing this role of species on these cycles.
And then if we think in the past, most of the carbon cycles were mostly focusing on soil plants and also what's happening under the soil. Not many people were mentioning the impact that species also can have on this carbon cycle.
So there is a university professor, Professor Oswald Smith, which suggested that also animals can have an impact. So this is the most important part, that animal might have an impact, the impact might be positive or negative, but they might have an impact. So it's important to include them in such models. So therefore they've developed. The professor with his lab at Yale University have developed this model. And we conducted the model, we applied the model in the southwestern carpet. So then about the numbers, how we got the numbers. So let's try to understand first how animals can, can be involved in these carbon cycles, how they are involved in this carbon cycle. So, for example, during the excretion, through the urine, there is nitrogen going to the soil, then from the soil it will go to the plants. So this is a direct effect, but there are many indirect effects. So, for example, the bison might be just walking around, so it might be compacting the soil or also might be impacting some vegetation species, which will benefit other competitors species, so there will be more diversity of plant species and so on. So this is how animals can impact the carbon cycle. But how we got to these numbers, how we, we matched the reality of sarco mountains with the model. So actually this was a quite challenging task, because while the model is very robust, so the model can really show us such effects. The problem is that we don't have perfect data, we don't have even complete data on the system. So we are now collecting this data, but also the way we collect the data is the way we understand now these interactions. But these interactions might be happening somewhere in other ways. So therefore, what we try to do, we try to first assess what will be the impact of python. So we know that bison in our area prefer these forest gaps. So the main vegetation they are consuming are these shrubs. These shrubs are often in open areas, that's why they are growing. They need light, so they won't be inside the forest. So bison might spend most of the time in these open habitats. These open habitats then. So therefore these open habitats will contain the scats. So we had the confirmation from the previous studies where we found that most of the scats were on these open habitats. So therefore, what we did is we said, okay, bison will spend most of the time in these areas. We also use GPS colored data we run. They are called behavioral states. So where we try to understand how much time bison spend in different habitats in different behaviors, because, for example, they might be using the forest to walk, so they might be roaming a lot through the forest, but then we might see also that they might prefer resting in the open habitats instead of the forest. So even though they will be spending, for example, 8 hours in the forest and only 3 hours in the open habitats, what's important is that the 3 hours spent in the open habitats will be kind of in the same place where in the forest they will just roam around. So their impact will be more pronounced in these open habitats. So therefore, yes, we derived these numbers. So we got this data, we put the data in the model, and then we conducted the model and we got these numbers. So what's very important to understand what we've assessed is that, yes, bison have an impact on the carbon storage, so they really do. But as you said, there are uncertainties in the outcomes of the model. We really hope to go through these uncertainties and really understand what we have modeled and what will be.
So there are sensitivity analysis running. We're trying to collect also more data to inform better the model. But what we need to understand here, the message is that, yes, the impact is there, it is also positive, we think, but how much can we use these numbers? We still rather prefer to just say that there is an impact without saying some numbers. So why, because these numbers, then why are these numbers important? That's also the question. So these numbers might be used for some actions. So, for example, for carbon credits or for biodiversity credits. But then the problem is that we are not certain about these numbers, so we will just have some activities, some economic activities based on an uncertainty.
Yes, so this is what's happening there. But again, yes, there is a positive impact on the, of the bison reintroduction, on carbon storage and on the environment itself.
But still, this can't be, and it doesn't have to be the only way to mitigate climate change. So, discussing with different people, we, we all agree that the most important action is actually to reduce the carbon emissions by human activities, and then rewinding can play a very important role in complementing this. But still, this role will be still minimal. So this is also important to understand. So why it will be minimal. While in the past, megafauna in general really had a huge impact on the climate in present, the density and the body size of this species is much lower. It's really much lower. And for this, they really. They do play an effect, but this effect might not be the one that we hope.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: And that makes sense. I mean, if you think about, you know, when people think about bison, the classic, like, multi million head herds that would go across the great grasslands, like in North America, and I'm assuming there's probably some. Something similar in Europe, but that was so long ago, I can't even. I can't even, like, picture that. Just, like, a million bison roaming around in Europe like, this is. That would be really cool to think about something like that. And another reason why I was so excited to sit down with you is because you're a scientist, and it is so easy in our field to greenwash and to overstate the power of something. And so that is why I so appreciate your honesty when it comes to this. Like, there are uncertainties in this model. Like, I'll be the first one to say it. There are uncertainties in this. And from what I understand, you're going to be coming to Yale actually, very soon to work on those uncertainties and to figure out those numbers and to continue doing the research, which is awesome and, like, so exciting. So you'll have even further updates and hopefully even more refined numbers on this as we. As we go forward.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that. Yeah, that's so fantastic. So then, I guess, what is the.
When we see these numbers, what would you like us to walk away from with that? Is it, like, okay, yes, large megafauna plays an important role in carbon sequestration, but it is, like, almost like a bonus, like, and the more that we bring back these animals, the more carbon will be sequestered, and it'll be fantastic. But we really need to pay more attention to things like reducing fossil fuels and stuff like that.
[00:32:43] Speaker C: So then it's a very good point, this actually. So what should be. What should we prioritize on? So if we state that, okay, through rewinding animals, we are really mitigating climate change on a very large scale. So therefore, some people might think, okay, so this is the way to go. So let's put our efforts on this direction. Let's spend money on this direction. But then the question is, okay, which species is the most efficient and also in which places? So then I. What we.
Is not a very natural way. So it's not how things also used to be. So we also. When we talk about rewilding, we also talk about the reference system. So what's the reference system? So what are we trying to do, actually? So it's very important to first understand what are our aims. So we do rewilding to recover the species. We do rewilding to mitigate climate change, or we can do rewinding to recover ecological processes. So, for example, to recover their bivory and preserve the grasslands. So the issue now is that people reintroduce the species and then they find out something and they say, oh, that's great, this will help in this, this will help in that. But then the management they do. So their introduction, how it occurred and where it happened won't lead actually to the outcomes that they are expecting. So this is very important. First, we must assess, which is the aim, why we did this reintroduction. So, for example, in our area in Romania, the main idea was that we ran to use the bison because we want to actually recover this land abandoned, so these grasslands. But then when we see what's happening actually, so that the bison are having contact with the people, because actually they are surrounded by some villages which have orchards and so on. So then if we really want to mitigate this conflict, then we also need to think, okay, what do we do? Do we provide artificial feeding to the third bison? But if we do this, then we will alter the behavior of the species, and then we will actually, we won't be on our direction of recovering these ecological processes because we will be altering the ecology of the species and so on. So it's very important to really think what we want to do was the aim. And, okay, how can we reach that aim? So then, if you think in Poland, in Poland, the aim was to recover the species. So the species was actually brought in some systems just so that they can, they can, they can be recovered in the wild. So basically, yes. So now if we say, okay, we reintroduce the bison just because we want to mitigate climate change, then maybe it might not be the best species to reintroduce. Maybe other species can have other effects and so on. And also, where can we reintroduce the species? So then what's the point is that we really need to think about. And also, when we have these messages, we really need to be careful on what are the uncertainties? What are the risks. So one problem with rewinding is that, first of all, yes, there are many initiatives that are growing now. So many more are coming. But also there are very few, very few outcomes, official outcomes, from other initiatives, from past initiatives. So when we start doing rewilding, we must also state, okay, this has happened so not only state the positive results, but we also have to state the negative results. So then the other reintroduction initiative, the other conservation efforts can really learn from what we did wrong. And this is actually a huge issue here, is not happening. And yes, this could really help a lot, because there is a paper which is called Pandora box. So they define a rewinding as Pandora box. I really like this idea, because what we are doing, we are just putting a new species in a new system, and we are hoping that some the things will go as we expect. But how do we know that the things will go like that? And also, why do we expect that this will happen or certain things will happen? We expect this because we have previous ecological knowledge, but then we must understand that things have changed. So everything is dynamic, so the ecosystem have changed, the human domination have altered the ecological processes. The densities of animals are much lower, and there is a concept of novel ecosystems. So there is a paper on wolf that was done by the researchers in belobes at the Mammal institute, where they are saying that wolves are recolonizing these species, but these species are not the same of the past, are dominated by humans. So the presence of humans is creating new ecological interactions and new ecological processes that we might not expect. So it's very important now to study what's happening and therefore guide the management based on this time and this space, not from the past. So this is the issue with european bison. We don't really know what.
What's happening now. So that's why it is important to look at the different sides and learn, which is it can be positive effects, but it also can be negative effects at the same time. The issue is that, for example, we want to test whether bison are grasser species or whether they can really cope, surviving only in grasslands. But we don't have in any place, a situation like this. So some people are suggesting some experiments where you just put the bison in a. Just in a grassland and you just see what happens.
This might be a good idea, this might be not, but still, yes, there are many uncertainties, and we must carefully state that and be aware.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, that was amazing. I'm so glad you just said all of that, because I also feel the same way.
[00:39:08] Speaker C: I'm.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: I'm, like, hopefully skeptical, if that's, like, a good way to put it, where it's like, all I see is all of these good news. All this good news, which I love. There is way too much awful headlines in our field that it's. It really does get tiring to see. But at the same time, when all you see is good stuff, you're like, wait a second. I know better. Like, I know not all of this is just roses and rainbows. I know it's not. What is the other side? And just like you said, then how do we extrapolate? How do we grow? How do we, like, start from here and be honest of the problems and the issues? And, you know, what, what's the main hurdle? Is it government? Is it local communities? It. What, what is the actual issues that we're having? And like you said, like, the experimental stuff. Like, what if you want, what if the key species that you need to bring back is an endangered species? Like, you can't just willy nilly experiment with that, you know, like this, and when every single individual counts. So, like, how do you, how do you best approach that and being very open and honest about that, you know, finding that rewilding project or that conservation project, that reintroduce this endangered frog species, and you want to do something similar, like, what issues did they have that you can then learn and take from? You're right. I don't really see many of the downsides, at least publicly written about when it comes to rewilding projects. But we know they're there. I mean, I talk to enough of you all on the front lines. I know they're there.
I know that the whole nothing. There's, there's some things in the. And the very shiny, glittery articles that aren't. I was like, there's another side to this. I know there is. Um, so I really appreciate that. And so let's talk about, then, the human side of this.
There are real people that are now living beside a mega herbivore. Like, these are bison. These aren't, I don't know, deer. I. And even deer can be an issue at times. These are bison.
So could you maybe talk a little bit more about that? How are local communities embracing or not embracing having a herd of 150 bison near them?
[00:41:39] Speaker C: Yes. So actually, we really talk about rewilding. Where do we do rewilding? We really think about, okay, we must know the species ecology to really understand where we can reintroduce the bison. We talk about suitable habitat. We must reintroduce the bison in suitable habitat. But then the space is not the issue. We might find space, actually, but the question is, are we willing to share the landscape with the bison? So it's about the locals communities, the local communities. It's all about humans at the end. But in their wilding context. So, first of all, we must inform the communities that, okay, we plan to do a reintroduction project. Why do we plan? Let's try to understand also what's the knowledge from the communities, because, for example, in Romania, they've been coexisting with large carnivores, for example, for many centuries. So actually they know what's like to really live with big species. So, for example, with the brown bear, many people got used to leave the brown bird that sometimes might come. It might take a sheep, also the wolves and so on. So they are used. But what happens when you introduce a new issue to the people? Because we might see that, okay, we reintroduce a bison, we re introduce the species. It's a wonderful thing. And more often, we that are from the cities are very happy about these introductions. But then these people that are first, from the first point of view, experiencing these reintroductions, what's. What's like? And here there are two, two main points. And there are two funny stories also on this that I experienced during my, my previous years. So the first one, there was a discussion, and there was a shepherd that was surprised and was saying, okay, I've been working here for many, many years, for ten years, like here, bringing the sheep in the mountains and coming back. But I saw cows, I saw bears, I saw wolves, but I saw something very weird. It was like a cow. It was very brown, dark, and it was very big. I don't know, actually, it was a bison. So why I'm saying this, it might sound funny that this guy didn't have idea what he had in front of him. Like something that was not there for the past years. And now he's there and he didn't know. And. Exactly, he didn't know. We must inform the communities. We don't. We. We cannot just go there and bring the bison. So, of course, in our introduction project, the beginning of the project was working with the community, informing the community. This is what we want to do. Why? What do you think? Let's work together. To do this and let's work together is not only a way of saying, okay, we bring the bison and you just tell us if something happens. But it's more involving the community. The rangers, for example, in our team, are from the communities, actually. So, which is amazing is that this reintroduction brought new jobs from the communities. But the most beautiful thing is that these people that have been working in the mountains, like in forestry, in hunting, or in different activities, are now very good, good field people. So really, the experience they have is crazy. And this is only thanks to the bison introduction. Also, there have been many, many more jobs that were created in ecotourism, for example, and so on. So this is the beautiful part about living with the bison, when the community is informed and is willing to work with the bison. But then there is another story. So it was the first year I was working at the project here at WWF, and then suddenly in May, we have heard that two bison were roaming around the orchard. So what's particular about the study area is that usually in Europe, when you have european bison, they are surrounded by crop, croplands mostly. But here in Romania, we don't have many croplands. We have orchards. So actually very close to the rank production area, we have the largest land in Romania, orchards. So it's like crazy huge lands of orchards. So you have apple trees, plum trees and so on. So these two big guys were roaming around in May and we said, okay, we just have a look, but we don't do much. They're just not very close. But then in July, people started calling us, look, there are bison here. They broke some trees. And it's very funny because people were saying, oh, they came here to eat all my apples. But bison don't care about the apple. So what's happening? Bison are trampling the trees because they love to scratch. For some reason. They love to scratch to three to five years old trees which are very small and very easy to break, and they just destroyed them. So between July and August, 1, single male destroyed 400 or 500 trees.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:46:44] Speaker C: Yes, yes. Which the issue is not that much the cost of the tree, because we could compensate that. And also the government has different programs to compensate that. But the issue is that the people waited five years to grow the tree. You give the money to buy a new tree, but you won't pay back the years. So then the people were very angry at this. And at the same time, the funny story is that one day we went there and there was this guy that was very hungry. It was threatening us. It was with an axe in his hand. And he said, I didn't sleep the whole night. I've been waiting the bison outside with the fork because I had a corn plantation, which it means a lot to me. So this is all I have. And if they come here and destroy everything, I don't know what I will do. So for him was very important. And again, it might sound a funny story that this guy was waiting with the fork outside and that the bison, like for guarding the bison, but for him was a very terrible experience. It was a terrible experience for this guy. So we must understand that, yes, rewinding is beautiful, but we must put ourselves in the place of these people and think, okay, would they like this? And what we can do then? So, okay, we can work with the community. So there is an example. So the example is the other rain introduction area. So there are three rain production area in Romania. Our one in the northern and one in the central Carpathians. So these people actually have sheep and cows. So this NGO have these animals. And if something happens, if some large carnivores are predating, they give, actually. So if the large carnivals predated a cow, they will give back a cow to the locals. Or if the bison went there and ate all the hay they stored, they will give back the hay because they are cultivating the hay. So this is actually, I think, a very good deal to coexist with bison. So, yes, this is one. One point. So, therefore, again, in rewilding or in european bios for introduction, the most critical part is working with the communities. And one.
One place with doing this very well is actually Switzerland, where they are having this reintroduction project. But they say, for the next five years, I won't put any single bison here. Or if I put them, they will be just fenced. Because first, we really want to work together with the communities, and only after that, we will bring them there.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: So they are, like, involving local communities from the very start. Instead of just like, hey, the government is coming in and doing this. Like, we'll have to figure a way to make you happier or be okay with this, instead of. But it's the other way around, then it sounds like. Yes, that is exciting. Wow. Yeah. That's really cool. So then what is the. I guess, what's the bigger goal of this project? What is the management plan of this herd? Are you just going to keep reintroducing new groups, new herds, let them expand naturally?
Is there a carrying capacity of the Carpathians? Like, what's the plan for these bison?
[00:50:13] Speaker C: So, at the moment, we have a life project, which actually, exactly these topics that you have just mentioned now. So, first of all, let's start with what's happening now. So what? Okay, we know what's happening now because we have this project which is funded for the next five years, for the next six years. So we will be working there. But what if we don't find any more projects in the future or something happens and we won't be able to work anymore on that landscape. So, actually, that's, I think, one of the biggest challenges, and that's why it's important to work with the local communities, because we are now monitoring the bison. We are now taking care, making sure that they are doing well, they don't have health issues, that there is no genetic loss, and so on. But then we can do this. So, actually, the locals can do this because they are already doing this for other species, when, I mean, the locals, it can be the hunters or the foresters. They're already monitoring other species. The issue is that if they were not involved from the beginning, they might say, okay, but the bison is a responsibility for me, because if they do damages, then I need to pay the damages, but I didn't bring the species here. And they also ask, what's the benefit from my point of view? So what can I you give me this new species, which it might cost a lot, because it might also eat the food they put for the other species. So it might come with some cost. If they have nothing to get from that, they might just refuse. So then the issue is that if we don't work in that landscape, that species will be just roaming around without knowing what's happening. So, regarding the long term, also, the genetic diversity is an issue because we know that bison now and now are doing well, but we don't know what will happen in the future, because we are just doing an experiment here of what's happening with the genetics. So when.
Whether and when there will be a genetic loss or the population will be just fine, we don't know. So that's why we are still reintroducing bison to enforce this genetic diversity. And, yes, so regarding the growth size, that's also another concern, because they will be growing a lot. More we reintroduce and more they will grow exponentially.
Something may happen, maybe a disease, or maybe they just don't. Don't mate anymore, because there are many. They start expanding and so on. Many things can happen. We cannot predict what will happen. So it's a very. Yes, it's challenging, challenging working on these reintroduction projects on the long term. But then we are trying to find a way to, again, contact back the communities to tell them, okay, where can we actually match our interest somewhere and negotiate and see what will be the future of the bison. So, in this project, we plan to have the management plan on the national level of the species. So maybe the government, with its institutions, the protected arrest institutions, or the forestry institution, the hunting institutions, maybe they will say okay. Yes, I will take the bison responsibility. So we hope this is the direction. So the direction is that this species was not here. The species is back, and now it is part of the landscape. So as it is part of the landscape, the communities will be the one, mostly working with it as the other species. So I think that the hardest point here is really this, about bringing another species that was not here. So changing the dynamics. And when I see the dynamics, I don't mean the ecological dynamics, but the social, economical dynamics and also the political dynamics. So these are aspects that must be tackled from the beginning of the project. So now, talking about the ecological dynamics, we're also altering them, and that's why understanding the impact is important. So we might often talk about the carrying capacity to understand what could be the potential impact. And since when the impact will be positive. So that will be the social carrying, the carrying capacity. It's already limited. So then from there, we are now collecting data. Understanding the carrying capacity capacity is challenging because we really need to understand what's the bison diet, how bison are interacting, competing with other species. But what are the main reasons of mortality of bison, whether it is disease? We might try to do some population models and so on.
We hope that after this project, we have an answer to this, but we also expect that the carrying capacity won't be determined by ecological factors, but more by social factors. So the question is, when the population growth and it will start expanding, will it expand through the mountains or will it go closer to the villages? And why? I'm saying this because there is this experience in the polish Carpetians, where actually there is a paper, is we ever introduced bison, but it's not going as we expected. We expected bison to. To go through the mountains. There is huge space for them there, but they're still going through the villages. So then again, the question is how much people are willing to coexist and to share the landscape with such a big species. So I think that actually, we are putting lots of effort on the ecology of revolting initiatives, but I think that overall speaking, we must work more on the socioeconomic and political context.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Isn't it just amazing that one species, we're talking about an animal, we're talking about european bison, and how long did we just talk about all of these other things?
Isn't it incredible? This is the reality of these projects, of these reintroductions, of our complicated relationship with nature and everything that we have to consider if we want these things to be a success.
And whatever success means, actually, that is a question I wanted to ask you. What does success mean for this project exactly?
[00:56:53] Speaker C: And so not only from this project, but in general, when we have our introduction project, what is the success of this project?
It's very hard to actually find this, and many and few studies exist on this. What's the success of the project? What are the parameters that are determining the success of the project? So, for example, success can be, we have reintroduced 100 bison and we have double size now. So this is already a success. A success can be that, for example, we had the bison and we had one year without conflicts, or we reintroduced the bison. There were no deaths during the transport. So there are many small successes. But I think that when we say success and rewilding, we often think on the big success. And the big success is that the bison are impacting the environment, that, thanks to the python, things are changing in a positive way. So what we expect as a big success is that bison are maintaining the grasslands, for example. So this is something that we might expect that in the next 100 years, through just grazing in these big spaces and encroaching and trampling these shrubs and small trees, bison will maintain this open habitat with all the diversity of species that's there. So I think this is the success we are expecting and also correlated to this is that if this is happening, then there will be many more other benefits and, for example, there will be the carbon storage and so on. But I think we won't be able to see these successes because it requires time. Rewinding is a long process and we might get. We get very excited when we do these projects, but then, and then maybe we think we will see the results soon, but it's not like this. And sometimes we don't even see the results. Things are just happening and are happening under our eyes, but we don't, we cannot see them. And actually, this is what I like about science, is that we won't discover anything new as scientists, but mostly we are just. We are just seeing things how they are and they're occurring. So that's the point, is that it's happening already. It's not something new we've discovered, but just we are seeing from another perspective. So what I see here is that maybe this reintroduction project is just a success. So already many things are happening, but we just don't see them now. So that's also why it's important to improve our knowledge, to have this scientific work. Many times people might say rewilding. Okay. It uses scientific knowledge as a base to guide the process.
But then it's more conservation. It's not science rewinding, but it's not true. It's also science, because through learning what's happening there in these places, we are really understanding what's the outcome of the rewinding. Was the positive effect or what would be the negative effect. So then what's beautiful about rewilding is that really we have, as you said, we have everything inside there. So many things are happening. It's very, very complex. And, yes, and you can have different teams working on different topics. So if we only think we have over 8000 bison freely roaming in Europe. Right. We think that people from.
People from Poland are working. People from Romania are working, as well as in Azerbaijan, there is a new introduction project. Then in Lithuania, we have also two different herds. In Russia, actually, because it's part of the european continent, we have the biggest herd of bison in one place with over 1300 bison.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:00:51] Speaker C: So then if we really think about these numbers, under these numbers, there is the huge work of. Of many, many people. So many people have dedicated their life to work in bison reintroduction, assessing what's the genetic diversity of bison, the breeding effort. So we have the breeders is the first step. The second step will be the people working on the genetics. So all the people from Poland that have been working on this since they started basically working in science, then we have all the conservation stakeholders. So people, which organizations led efforts to bring back the biome, then we have the scientists, then we start having the local communities. So I think that this is the success that we think. So it's not the one that's happening on the small study scale. So the success of a single reintroduction era, but the success is that this species was extinct in the wild, and now, thanks to the work of these people, is back and is back in many places. And thanks to this, many people have found a willing in their life, have found, like, an aim in their life. So really, I think that bison did not really not only alter the ecological processes, but also had an impact on people's life. So, yes, so that's. That's beautiful. That's the most beautiful part. Part about rewinding that we don't really hear about, because we really focus on what's the impact of bison on the environment. But it's much more than that.
[01:02:30] Speaker B: And to continue down that same thought process, I mean, clearly you are so passionate and you just did a very good job of tiptoeing the scientist's line of, like, here's the good here's the bad, here's the working on, here's what we don't know. But from your perspective, what does this.
[01:02:50] Speaker A: Project mean to you?
[01:02:52] Speaker B: Why are you now working on a PhD to continue studying this? You are going to be going to Yale soon, away from your home, to learn more about this, to get better numbers.
What is this like for you on being a part of this project?
[01:03:09] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think that this project meant a lot to me because it was my first actually project where it was already when I had responsibilities. I've been working in different projects in the past as a student, but still I was a volunteer, so now it's really I need to prove what I've learned in the past, so I really need to show my skills, to use my skills to guide certain actions and to have a responsibility of that. So this project meant a lot to me, especially for this, because it is really the beginning of my career. I'm just on the early stages of the career, but I think this project really shaped my future directions. But mostly why I'm here and why I'm very excited to work on all these directions is just because of curiosity. So this is my most, this is the factor that is pushing a lot and is motivating me. It's really discovering what's happening. So I'm very fascinated on thinking we put a new species in a new system, what's happening, what's changing, and so really discovering all these small interactions. So this is what I love about ecology, is that I don't study the bison. So was the just the bison biology? So, okay, so the bison is a very big animal. What is physiology? What is morphology? No, it's what are the interactions of bison and the environment? Bison and. And another species. And how, because bison is interacting with this species, is altering also another species and so on. So it's the complexity that is really intriguing me and finding ways to see this complexity. So I think this is the main part where I stand from, really finding ways to see things differently.
[01:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. And that curiosity will keep you going for the rest of your career, because who knows? Maybe this bison project will lead to back to your large carnivore love. You never know, like, what's the Bison wolf story in the Carpathians? Or, you know, something that was a complete example or, you know, links or whatever the next question might be. Or maybe you'll just become the bison expert of that part of the world. I mean, who knows? You're just starting your career, but you're already so knowledgeable and already have such a fantastic view of this. And I mean, shout out to Alistair of the global rewilding alliance. He's like, oh, you want to? I reached out to him. That's how this whole conversation happened. I was like, yeah, Alistair, I need to learn more about the european bison story. Who do you recommend? Without even a question, he's like, this is the guy you need to talk to. And it's Gabri. And so big, shout out to Alistair for helping this conversation happen. But I, again, gotta be this was amazing. You pretty much just answered every question that I can think of at this moment in time about this amazing project. And I so appreciate you coming on and sharing all of your knowledge with us. It was fantastic. And I know that as this project continues, I'll keep poking you and be like, hey, come back on. What's the latest updates? Do you have any news? The things? So this won't be the first time that we all hear from you, that's for sure.
[01:06:28] Speaker C: Yes. And thanks a lot. Thanks a lot really for this opportunity. And I really think that it's important to hear about these efforts of reviving on certain species of conservation and these people working on this context because really they are making the world better and in very few times we hear about them. So we are all keep, we are all kept in this scientific bubble or we are very busy with our works that we don't send the message where it needs to go. And I really appreciate that you're doing that. So thanks a lot for the opportunity.
[01:07:02] Speaker B: Of course. Thank you.
[01:07:08] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible story, stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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[01:07:41] Speaker B: Mean the world to me.
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