[00:00:00] Speaker A: In the rugged wilderness of Alaska, where bears fish for salmon and glaciers carve ancient valleys, a battle is brewing that could forever change the face of one of Alaska's most pristine national parks.
This isn't just a story about mining. It's a complex tale of native land rights, conservation, and the future of our wild places.
Welcome back to Rewadology, the nature podcast that dives into the human side of conservation, travel, and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today we're shining a spotlight on a critical issue unfolding in Lake Clark National park and Preserve. I had the privilege of sitting down with Jen Woolworth, the Alaska program manager at the National Parks Conservation association, to unpack the controversy surrounding the Johnson tract mine.
Gin is at the forefront of a fight that's as much about respecting native land rights as it is about protecting a national treasure. The proposed Johnson tract mine isn't just within park boundaries. The land is owned by local tribes, adding layers of complexity to an already contiguous issue. In this episode, we explore how this unique situation came to be, setting the stage for a delicate balance between indigenous rights, conservation, and resource extraction.
Jen and I dive into the clever marketing tactics used by the involved mining companies, the unique review process that's raised eyebrows amongst conservationists, and the potential long term impacts on both wildlife and Alaska's booming tourism industry.
Jen and I also tackle the thorny questions of economic development, environmental protection, and honoring agreements with native communities.
Youll come away from this conversation with a deeper understanding of the challenges facing our national parks, the rights of indigenous peoples, and the passionate individuals working tirelessly to find a path forward that respects all stakeholders.
Before we jump in, if you're loving what you're hearing, don't be shy. Hit that subscribe button, leave a rating and review, and share this episode with your nature loving friends. Every listen helps spread the word about critical conservation issues.
All right, that is enough from me. Let's venture into the wilds of Alaska and the high stakes world of conservation with Jen Woolworth.
Well, hi, Jen. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me. I know it is super early in the morning for you, as you're calling in all the way from Alaska, and for a very important topic today that we are going to get really deep into. And so thank you again for coming on. So, first, like, let's, I want everybody to get to know you because your journey and your story is just so fascinating. So what is your background? How did you get to Alaska and working with bears like, how did. How did that happen?
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Sure.
So I guess, you know, I was like that typical kid who grew up. I grew up in Utah, and we have lots of national parks and state parks. So my parents took me to the parks. I got to talk to the rangers, see what they were doing, and I was like, that's amazing. Like, these people are getting paid to hang outdoors and really have, like, an incredible life. And I was like, man, I should go into a field like that. And so I kind of looked into schooling, and as I got older and I graduated high school, I was like, that's what I want to go into, is I want to be, like, a park ranger or something. And so I went to Utah State University because they had a program that was recreation resource management, which basically trained you to work for a federal land management agency. So that was super great. I loved it. I got to learn a bunch. We had hands on experience. We got to build fences for the forest Service. And I always like to joke, that's where I get my PhD, because we dug holes with post hole digger. So that's my PhD, and it costs a lot less than, you know, like a typical PhD.
Got it in about a week, you know, but, yeah, so I kind of, you know, in the summertimes, I would go and be a state park ranger at. I went to Utah Lake State park, and then when I graduated, I actually got a job at dead Horse Point State park in southern Utah. And that was, like, an incredible job. But these jobs were all seasonal. So, you know, you move one place for eight months or six months, however long the season is, and then you are like, okay, now I got to find the next gig. So as a park ranger fresh out of high school, you have to basically move a lot. And so I started doing that, and I was having a hard time getting into the federal system, and I was like, man, how do I. How do I break into that? I have several years of seasonal experience. I have a bachelor's degree. Why can't I get a job?
And I kind of looked at the qualifications, and I was like, there must be. I mean, there was a lot of competition at the time when I graduated, and so I was like, I have to do something that puts me further ahead, that gives me extra points when I'm applying for these federal jobs. So that's when I decided something that I promised I would never do, which was go back to school after I got my degree, right? Everybody says I'm never going to go back to school. And then I was back to school.
So I went and got my master's degree, and that was through the University of Idaho. It was actually a really unique program because it was online, and so I could work full time while obtaining my master's degree, which was really convenient. And I was able to do it in a year and a half. It was the only time I've ever done summer school. I don't suggest it, but it was totally worth it to get it done quickly.
So once I got my degree, my master's degree, and during that time, I was working full time with fish and wildlife service in northern Utah at the Bear river migratory bird refuge. And if you like birds, let me tell you, my first day on the site, they were like, how much do you know about birds? And I was like, well, I know what a robin and a magpie is. And they're like, here's a list. And, you know, in a couple weeks, you need to know all the birds, because. And the list was, like, 230 species.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: And I was like, okay. But there was this, you know, the visitor center had this big, beautiful wall of all the birds and numbers, and you could, like, practice every day. And, like, my job was to go out on the refuge and, like, look for birds and then write it down so that visitors who came could be like, what's out there? And they could look at the map. And I'd have, like, the birds that I saw in the spots, not like the birds were gonna stay there, but kind of a general idea. So I did that while I was going to school. I finally finished up school, and that's when I seemed to really notice, like, I was able to be competitive. I started applying for federal jobs, and then I started getting some job offers coming in, which was great.
It took longer than I was hoping for, but nevertheless usually does. Yeah. Job searching and using USA jobs is some of the most depressing times of my life, because you're like, okay, I applied to 60 jobs, and I haven't heard back anything, but I ended up getting a couple job offers. One was in North Dakota, and one was in Alaska. And there's North Dakota. Alaska.
I took the Alaska job, and that's why I'm here. And so that job was with the Bureau of Land Management at the Campbell Creek Science center in Anchorage.
And that was a really cool. It was a really cool gig. It was also a seasonal position, though, but it followed the school year, so then I had summers off, and I was like, this is so backwards. You know, every single ranger job, they hire you during the summer, and then the off season is like, oh, now I gotta find a job.
But, you know, it actually worked because I was able to work for the Forest service down in Juneau at the men and hall glacier, which is, like, one of the most visited glaciers in North America. And it was a really cool experience, you know? So at this point, you know, I've now worked for three of the four federal land management agencies, and the only one I hadn't worked for was the park service, which is kind of ironic because now I work for a group that is the advocacy arm for, you know, the park service. So it's just, it's. It's funny how, you know, your timeline evolves and your experiences that you gain and the knowledge you gain, and every place you go is a whole new place, a whole new area with animals and wildlife and policies, and those are all the things that you learn on the job training.
So that kind of brings me, you know, I'm here in Alaska now, and I've been here for eight and a half years, and I started to transition out of the federal agency.
I kind of was. I don't know, I was like, I'm kind of tired of maybe, like, the bureaucracy or, like, there's just a lot more rules. You can't say what you're really thinking and feeling because you represent a federal agency, so you pretty much stay neutral. And I was very much. I'm very, very much of the, you know, I want to say what I'm thinking.
So I started looking around, you know, and that kind of is what brought me to the nonprofit sector. And I worked at a small nonprofit that was kind of focused on wildlife rehabilitation, education, and all sorts of things like that. So I got to work with different species in Alaska, like musk ox, black bears, brown bears, and it was really great. I learned a lot, lots of hands on learning. I got to feed porcupines and Sitka black tailed deer on the daily, and it was really great. I loved it. And then I realized I kind of wanted to have more impact. And I found another larger nonprofit that was, like, actually a national nonprofit. And I was able to work on endangered polar bears and endangered cooking at belugas. And then I also had kind of this section of my job that was focused on working on brown bears on the Kenai peninsula with electric fencing. And really here in Alaska, there's a lot of changes that we're seeing in the climate. And so people are starting to say, hey, we can't necessarily rely on the fish runs because they're becoming quite inconsistent. So we need to bring in alternate food sources. So there's just been this explosion on the Kenai peninsula where people are bringing in livestock. There's cattle, there's chickens, there's pigs. And people are always like, you guys have that in Alaska?
And I'm like, yep, yep, we do. Animals are pretty resilient, and the way we figure out how to. How to get them through the winter is pretty cool. And. But then you're like, okay, so you're bringing in, like, chicken nuggets into a place where there's brown bears and black bears in your backyard. So you need electric fencing for that. So that was kind of one of the really neat programs that helped folks protect their. Their livestock and really, honestly, their. Their food source. And so I did that for a couple years, and then I continued to transition. I found another job that is my current job, which is a program manager, manager for National Parks Conservation association. And this really, you know, the job was like, bear coast program manager. And I was like, first off, that sounds really cool.
And I got to work with brown bears still, so that's really awesome. So I kind of, like, transitioned from those previous jobs to my current position, and now I've just. It's opened a whole new world. I used to work on oil and gas issues with wildlife, and now I've transitioned to working on mining with wildlife and park landscapes. And it's definitely a learning curve, you know? I mean, you have to become a subject matter expert, and you have to learn everything about mining and everything about national parks and everything about landscape conservation and how a system all works together. And, you know, how these resources can be impacted by different, various things. So I know that was a lot, but that's where we are now today.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: No, but I so appreciate you going through your journey like that, because I think it highlights two things. It highlights that nobody has a direct path to what we're doing now, which, that's why I love asking this to every single person that comes on, because I think that once we get into this field, we have this big dream that we're working towards, like, why can't we get there? But as you're demonstrating and what we're getting ready to get into, all of your previous work is now applicable to what you're doing now. And what you're doing now is working on and being an advocate for stopping this Johnson track mine.
So I bet that the odds are high that most people listening right now don't even know what the Johnson tract mine is so could you give us some backstory? What is the Johnson track mine, and why is it something that we should really be paying attention to?
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Sure, that's a great question. And, yeah, like, even here in Alaska, I say Johnson track mine, and people are like, well, I haven't heard of that mine. We have a lot of mining and proposed mines in Alaska, and this is a proposed mine. I want to get that out there. It's not an actual functioning mine yet. It's a proposed polymetallic mine, which means that it is gold, copper, zinc, and lead. And that last, that last mineral lead is what makes it one of the dirtiest mines. So just kind of think about that, you know, and in the long term effect, you know, if this mine comes to fruition, they're going to be transporting lead out, which is extremely toxic. So that's one of the reasons why we should kind of pay attention to it, even though it's. So it's close to tidewater and it is, you know, at first glance, it doesn't seem so. I'm in Anchorage, and it's across the inlet, so the majority and the largest population of Alaska lives in Anchorage. We have about 300,000 people.
And then we have this body of water in between us and the other side. And the other side is where Lake Clark National park and preserve is. And also further south is Katmai National park. And lots of folks know about katmai because of the big brown bears that feast on the salmon on the waterfalls. But Lake Clark is a little further north. And, you know, at first glance, it seems like there's, it's not going to affect a lot of local people because not a lot of people live right there because, you know, it's mainly parklands. But, you know, this mine would really impact the community who relies on bear viewing. Bear viewing is a huge industry up here.
I mean, people come to Alaska to see our wildlife, and there's also the fishing aspect. You know, there's a lot of fishermen, set netters, all sorts of folks like that who, that's their livelihood in the cook inlet.
There's also clamming. And so all of these things would be impacted by this. This mine. And this mine is on Native Corporation land. And so it's inside the national park. So people are like, first off, they're like, why is there mine, you know, inside a national park? And it. It is very complicated, and I guess I can. I can kind of go into that why it's there in the first place, because, you know, that's what people need to understand is there was this act called the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act 1971, and I'm going to refer to that as ANCSA. And so this was a new approach by Congress to the federal indian policy. So ANCSA extinguished aboriginal land title in Alaska, and then it divided the state into, like, twelve distinct regions. So the entire state of Alaska was split up into these regions, and it was mandated the creation of twelve private, for profit Alaska Native regional corporations and over 200 for profit Alaska Native village corporations. So INGSA mandated that both regional and village corporations be enrolled by, or be owned by enrolled Alaska Native shareholders. So, unlike in the lower 48, where the reservation system was like the norm, ANCSA departed significantly and its foundation was in Alaska Native corporate ownership. So the. The native corporation that owns this land is called Cookie Inlet Region Incorporated. So Serie is the acronym. And they not only obtained the right to mine the minerals from the Johnson tract, but it also received the rights to negotiate the right of way access, which is basically allowance for a road across national park lands to get those minerals to market, which means Siri and the Department of the Interior, which includes the National Park Service, must agree on an easement over park lands to get the product to tidewater, and another easement for the construction of an export terminal along the shores of Cook inlethe. So saying all of that, basically, the native corporation that owns this land is allowed by this policy to create a road and create a deep water port right there in, you know, basically national park lands. So it is very complicated.
And the reason. So with the passage of.
Well, in 1980, I'm going to add a little bit more here. The 1980. The Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act. I know there's a lot of acts here, but that's called ANIlCA.
They created ten new park system areas, including Lake Clark National park and Preserve.
And so Anilka gives rural residents, Alaska residents, priority for subsistence use of fish and wildlife on federal public lands. And so that was created after the land was given to the native corporation. And so that's why the park, these lands are inside a park.
And, I mean, I think we need to understand that our parks would not exist if we hadn't made these agreements. We took a lot of indigenous land, and I want to recognize that there's a lot of federal land in Alaska, and these were all ancestral homelands of different tribes throughout Alaska. So there is kind of that. There is that aspect to this whole complicated situation. And that's, you know, like, these were first and foremost indigenous lands, and we want to be respectful of that. But then, you know, the question is, is a mine a right thing for, for this area?
[00:21:06] Speaker A: And I also do want to address that as well. Like, yes, like, they have, this is their private land. They have the right to do with it what they will. But I did. I also think that it's really interesting that you brought both of those acts up because those seem like in direct conflict with each other. You know, like one would literally be destroying the other. So I almost wonder, like, could native Alaskans then take legal action against this? I know that you and I have sat down before and we've talked about this mine because we sat down for natural habitat adventures and recorded one of our first conservation connect webinars, and it did really well.
But during that, I didn't think of this legal aspect.
Is that something that could come to fruition? Could, like the alaskan body of people or a, or, you know, like defenders of wildlife or some sort of legal entity, could they then use that act to stop this mine if it does get into full production? Do you know about any legal proceedings with this?
[00:22:24] Speaker B: So I think there's quite a few.
There's a lot of things that have to happen. There's a lot of permitting that has to occur. Now, if you take pebble mine, for example, and a lot of folks, a lot of folks know about pebble mine because it's been going on for 20 years, and that's in an adjacent kind of landscape that affects the fisheries a lot more just because there's so much more fish in Bristol Bay area. And they've been trying and trying and trying to get pebble mine to go in. So with pebble mine, they've been working for years and years to try and figure out how to stop this. And what they have come to. The conclusion, besides all the permitting that can be used to stop it because, you know, these federal agencies have to follow the guidelines that they have set. And so our job is to uphold those federal agencies to the highest standard.
And so with pebble mine, that's what they've been doing. And now they've actually gotten a member, like they've gotten Mary Potola, who's part of the delegation, to introduce a bill to create permanent protections for this land, which is really cool, if you think about it, because it is like the ultimate way to protect the land. You know, these, we're really hopeful that this, this, these protections will happen. And I, and honestly, it could almost be used as a model in the region. And maybe that's something we could do is be like, you know, there's so many unique areas in the area where they want to put in the steep water port. Like, there's fossil point, which is one of the largest jurassic period era fossil beds. I mean, this place is incredible. You go on a boat and you land, and you get out on the shore, and there's just thousands, thousands of fossils. And, like, you can, you know, you pick it up, look at it, and there's, like, you know, 15 fossils in this one rock. And that's how the whole shoreline is. It's incredible. And people don't know about it, but it needs to be protected. And currently it's protected. But, you know, what happens if a spill occurs with this mine? Like, everything will be contaminated in the area.
There's also pictographs that were left by the athabascan people, and these were losing, like, lake Clark is documenting the ones that they know of. There's probably a lot of other cultural sites and these really important areas that need to be protected and not necessarily even documented. They just need to be protected. And so, like, there's a lot of things in this landscape that largely remains undiscovered. And, you know, it is a fear that I have. You bring in a bunch of people to be working on this landscape that don't have the knowledge or the respect for the land.
And maybe it's not out of purpose, but maybe it's just because ignorance. You know, Alaska is different. We have a lot of different rules and things, and so they could be, you know, taking the fossils. I mean, people always destroy pictographs and petroglyphs and all sorts of things. We've seen that in the lower 48.
But all of these things are things that need to be protected, and they are, you know, like, of cultural significance.
And so maybe that's, you know, that's one way we could, like, protect this area is just be like, look, this is the Dina ina. We're here for, like, 10,000 years before we were. There's. There's artifacts that have been found. There's all sorts of things that. That show that this landscape was used before us. And I just think that's one of the things we can maybe utilize in order to continue to try and pray, protect this landscape.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: So when it comes to the mine itself and this piece of land, was it always ear tagged as a potential mining spot? Or do you know if. Which. If you could go into who the mining players are, did they come to the native corp and say, hey, you know, we want to take over the piece of land. We want to lease it from you. Or however, the.
If you could also explain that too, like, how does a mine actually work? Like, who owns the land and who gets the money for it? Was it always going to be a mine? Or was this the only viable option that was presented to the native corp as a way to monetize their land and give, you know, a good amount of funding to their shareholder shareholders? But, yeah. Could you maybe explain more of the timeline here? Why is it becoming a mine? Potentially?
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Sure.
Yeah. This is an interesting tract of land. So when all the land was taken and divided, Siri, the corporation, the native corporation, they did choose this land for the suspected known minerals that were associated with it. And they kind of were like, well, there's not a whole lot of land left. Mostly it's mountains and glaciers, but this land is supposed to have really rich ore deposits.
So I think long term, that's what they were thinking, you know, it's gonna be mined. That's just what's gonna happen. But that was a long time ago. Now they've leased it out to different mining companies throughout the years. And I think the eighties was when it really started, when it first happened. But I think there was some exploratory mining then.
Not a whole lot came from it. It stopped people. So if you're not really familiar with mining, you go into a place, and then you do exploratory mining, and basically they're doing drill holes, and then they take those core samples and they analyze them for what minerals are in them.
So they did that in the eighties.
It must have not been super enticing at the time, or maybe the idea was just really expensive because it's off the coast, you know, you have to build a deep water port, you have to build a road.
There was probably at the time, in the eighties, I don't think there was a whole lot of places where you could process the ore. So then you're, like, talking about shipping to China or something. So with that, you know, they're thinking, okay, so it sat for probably another 20 years. That mining company didn't develop it. They just did some exploratory mining. Well, if you fast forward to 2019, so after the, like, 20 years of it sitting and not doing anything, 2019 is when high gold mine, which is a canadian mining company, came in. They must have been looking for places, places to do some exploratory mining that were potentially lucrative. So they picked this spot, and so the native corporation would create a lease and lease the land to the mining company for exploratory mining. So that's what Highgold has been doing for the last, you know, five years.
And high gold mine is. So these, there's these smaller mining companies that come in and high gold mine is interesting because the CEO of that Darwin Green, he's worked in Alaska before, and each time he comes in, he creates a new name for a small mining company, goes into a place. And his job is basically, let's make this. Let's, let's do some exploratory mining.
We're gonna find really good stuff. We're gonna make it look really good, put a bow on it, and then we're gonna sell.
Their job is not to develop fully the mine. And they don't, they don't have the funding for that. Their job is to go in, find a place that looks good, looks lucrative, and put a bow on it and then sell it to somebody who could develop it. So that just happened this year, actually. So high gold mine keeps saying, you know, Johnson tract is this incredible gold mine, potential gold mine, and you should buy it because it's going to be lucrative. And we have core samples to prove that.
So Contango Ore, which is a company here in Alaska that has another similar mine that's being developed called Lucky shot.
And then they have a mine that's fully operational this year called the Mancho mine, which means they have a fully operational mine. That means that they're making some money. So now they have money to develop lucky shot and Johnson track mine.
So now we're looking at this big mining company that has the, I guess the industrial power strength and deep pockets to come in and start developing these little exploratory sites. So that's what Contango Ora is doing currently.
And they keep toting, you know, Johnson track is going to be this incredible gold mine.
They're trying to actually call it like a quarry because they're doing some unique things with it. They're not actually going to be having like a mine tailing stamp. Every mine has a mine tailing stamp where they process the ore on site and then they ship it out. But Johnson track mine is kind of unique. They're using this they call the DSO method, which is the direct ship or method. And that just means they are going to be digging up the ore. They're not processing it. They're going to put it on the boat and then ship it out. And then it's going to be processed off site either someplace in Alaska or they may ship international.
And the reason why they're kind of toting this is going to be awesome, this is going to be easy is because there's a lot less permitting required. When you do not have mine tailing dams.
You don't have to get those permits because mine tailing dams contaminate groundwater, contaminate everything around them, because at some point in their life, they're going to fail.
So the Johnson track mine is just like this unique.
I don't know, it's this unique area where they're trying to get away with the least amount of permitting. Max returns trying to say it's not going to impact the environment. But, you know, we know better.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: We absolutely know better. Didn't you say in their marketing scheme, not that they were calling it like a green mind, but they were kind of like something to that extent where they were trying to make it sound like it's not going to be destructive at all.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, all over, you know, if you read anything about it, they're like, this is gonna be like a rock quarry. We're just shipping out stuff. It's. It's not gonna impact the wildlife. It's not gonna. It's gonna be a very small impact to the landscape. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but if you've ever been over to Lake Clark, it's this. I mean, it's 4 million acres of pristine wilderness, wildness, everything that really encompasses what Alaska is about and what people want to experience. It's some of the most transformative experiences a park user or really anybody could experience. And when they're saying it's a small impact, I'm like, you're talking about putting in a road where I. There are no roads in that landscape for miles and miles, you know, and I'm like, that's going to severely impact. And not just the road aspect of it, but with roads comes trucks, and there's going to be additional planes, helicopters. All of that is going to add sound, noise, pollution. There's going to be contamination of soil.
When you drive on roads, that creates dust, that lands on plants, that alters ecosystems. I mean, this is not small stuff. It is going to severely impact this. Not to mention putting in a deep water port into this Tuxedini bay. And Tuxedini Bay is just this incredible area of water that just this year, the National Oceanic Atmosphere Administration, NOAA, released information that for the first time, they have finally found where endangered cook inlet belugas forage during the winter.
And they even put in their paper. Like, this area, Teksidny Bay, should be closed from, like, September through May. And one of the number one causes for. Of what they think is causing the, the population to decline is, is noise and pollution and, like, anthropogenic use. So, I mean, this could be, like the end of our cooking lit beluga whales, and they are like a beloved animal in Anchorage. We have. We have a day every single year. It's called Beluga's count, where everybody in Anchorage goes out and is looking for whales. And the zoo hosts, like, a bunch of organizations that talk about the beluga whales, and everybody loves beluga wells. And there's Betty Beluga, and she's like this big, large stuffed animal that somebody walks around in, and you can go say hi to Betty. And it's just, I'm like, we could. We could literally lose these in these endangered cooking lip beluga wells. And it would be such, it would be really sad.
And then there's just, there's just so many impacts, and for them, for the mind people to say, oh, there's. It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a small impact. I'm like, no. Like, no, there's. There's no way.
It's gonna be a huge impact.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yes. And let's. So let's switch to the community side of this and all the various different community aspects, stakeholder viewpoints of this. So Johnson track hasn't followed the normal comments, period review process, as you have so kindly explained to me before. So for everyone listening, could you talk about that? Why has this mine or issue not followed the normal, like, pebble mine, where even I commented on it? Like, all of these different things. Like, a lot of people raised their voice for pebble mind, but this one isn't doing that. Could you explain what's happened and why?
[00:38:35] Speaker B: Sure. So because of those agreements that I was talking about earlier with Anilka and ANCSA, some of the stuff that is occurring right now.
So the park, the national park has to do certain things. And so with these laws that were enacted, some of that red tape seems to be taken away. So the park doesn't have to go through the typical normal things that you would have to go through if, you know, there was a mine in a park, but because of these rules that we have in Alaska, they can kind of, they're like, well, we already have this agreement that we signed a long time ago that says we have to allow for access to the or and we have to allow for a port to be built.
So the engagement, the typical engagement isn't it, isn't there because they already have this underlying agreement where they're like, we don't. I mean, we can allow people to comment on it.
And that's what they did in June. They allowed for a public comment period on the conveyance of the easement. So where should we put this road?
And, you know, I mean, it was a 14 day public comment married period in the middle of summer. And that's like probably one of the worst times you can hit an alaskan with something to sign and do on top of their busy summer. I mean, we only get, we only get three months of summer here in Alaska and we live them to their fullest. And the last thing we want to be doing in the middle of summer on a very, very short crunch time is to be trying to write a public comment on a mind that would have, like, serious impacts to, well, one, a lot of people's livelihoods, it's going to impact tourism.
And, you know, two, they don't, they haven't even heard about it. So the park, like, has a page where you can go comment, but it's not like they're broadcasting widely. Hey, we're doing this thing because we have to, you know, and so, so folks just don't know about it. And that's one of our biggest struggles is raising that awareness and elevating this to the next level where it's like, hey, all this is happening in Alaska. Everybody who's come and seen bears needs to understand that this coastline, if a spill were to occur, could be completely contaminated. And that would impact, you know, all the bear viewing, the fish that the bears are feasting on the, and so the public engagement is just lacking. And that's why we, as these nonprofit groups are having to step in because they put out the public comment period. But I'm like, who gets that email unless you know about it and you sign up for it? You have no idea that there's a public comment period on Lake Clark, you know, and so we're really trying to change that. We're trying to elevate it. We're trying to let folks know there's a public comment period coming up, supposedly in November. We don't know exact dates. And that's the other thing is we don't have very much lead time. And so November, the park is supposed to be releasing a resource analysis.
And we basically, as the public have to read that resource analysis. And then we go, what is missing from this? What is the park not addressing that I want address. Like, did they talk about the impacts to belugas? Did they talk about the impacts to brown bears, clams, fish, all those things? But then they go, well, it's going to be a 14 day public comment period.
And I'm going, okay, you have to read a resource analysis and then you have to write a comment and then you have to let everybody know about it. And I'm like, that's, that's a ridiculous timeline. And why, why is it so short? Like, I would say typical comment periods are 30 days plus 30, 60, 90 days. And this 14 day comment period is just, it's crazy. It's ridiculously short. And now they're forecasting in November. And I'm like, well, looking at November, when is a good time in November? We've got the election. We've got Veterans Day. We've got Thanksgiving. I mean, those are, those are some pretty big things coming up that we have to compete with and then trying to just get people to know about it. So the engagement piece is what we're hoping to change and really amp up and get people aware of this. And we really appreciate opportunities like this to let folks know about the Johnson track mine and what you can do to help support us and, like, try to stop this mind from, from happening.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's why I'm so grateful to have this platform that I get access to people like you, that we can help broadcast these issues that are just completely going underneath the radar and to continue down the community aspect. Are there actually other native groups that are speaking out against this by chance?
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Well, that's a good question, and I can't answer on behalf of these, the native groups that would be talking about it.
I do know that the park has to consult with the tribes. We are talking with different folks in different villages about it because there's so many things that they have to take care of. This is just like one more thing, right. And it's really taxing to have so many things on their plate. So we're gonna start, you know, really going out to two tribes and doing some tribal engagement and just being like, hey, where are you on this, on this Johnson track mine? Are there things that we can do to help?
You know, even just letting them know ahead of time that there's this potential comment period in November, or I shouldn't say potential. There's going to be a comment period. We just are thinking potentially in November that right there gives them a heads up. You know, they can be like, okay, we should put this on our calendar for November, because their calendars fill up fast. They're so busy. They have so many things going on. So what we're going to try and do is just do our best to be like, here's the information about Johnson tract mine. What questions do you have? How can we help you and really try to get them engaged on it? Because these are their ancestral homes. And I know that there's several tribes that feel deeply about this land and they don't want to see it. I mean, I can't speak for the tribe again, but I don't think that they would want to see this development on their land. And we'll know more as we talk with more and more tribes.
But, you know, I think. I think Bristol Bay is a good example, pebble mine is a good example of tribes coming together and saying, hey, not. Not in our home. You're going to destroy our livelihood and our fish and our landscape for forever. And I think this is. This is going to be treated similarly because it's the same idea. It's going to be destroyed for. For a mine that's. It's not even a critical mineral. You know, it's. It's like a gold mine. So it's definitely just there for. For money. And there's other ways that we could figure out. The native corporation could. Could earn money.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: So I think the next logical question then, what could be alternatives to this mine for that piece of land?
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Yeah, we've. We've thought about, you know, what are the. The options? It could be introducing a bill, like, was done to. To have permanent protections. I understand that, you know, like, Syria is.
Is running it like a business, right? They have to provide income for their shareholders. That's their whole. That's like their home mission. So thinking through that, I'm going, well, if there is a way that we could buy this land, not my organization, but several entities, it's going to be very expensive.
But if they could buy the land, then the native corporation would receive funds, which they could then pass on to their shareholders, accomplishing their number one goal, which is to provide income for their shareholders.
Meanwhile, the land is being protected by whomever buys it.
I guess that could be, you know, written in an agreement, and that would be kind of like the ideal situation where the shareholders get money, the corporation gets money, the land is protected. And I. We still have our cooking lit beluga wells and our bear viewing, and then also protecting, you know, that those cultural sites and just everything that's associated with the incredibleness of this landscape.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: So when it comes to money, do you have an idea of how much this land would cost versus how much would.
How do I want to word this? How much would this. How much money would this mine potentially bring in to Alaska?
[00:48:46] Speaker B: Ooh, you know, there's.
I don't know that I've really seen any projections of how much or how lucrative this mine would be, except for the mining company saying, this is going to be, like, a really good gold mine.
So I don't know that I can put a number to that.
And potentially, you know, some of that money could be leaving the state, especially if they're, like, processing out of country.
I don't know how much of that would come back to Alaska. I don't exactly know the economics of that. Buying the land. I mean, right now, the land is only earning. They're kind of figuring out they're, like, the potential of the land.
So I'm sure the price tag is kind of going up day by day because they're like, oh, we're finding even better gold here, you know, so, I mean, I could throw out a number, like 50 million or seven. Like, I don't know.
It's. It's a big. It's going to be a big chunk of change. And it's kind of crazy to think about fundraising for something like that or finding organizations that could, you know, support that kind of buyout. But I'm sure that there's some people out there that are like, we could make this happen, you know, and even if they were like, we want the park to buy it, you know, if the park could buy it and then the land would go back to the park, and then it would be completely all Lake Clark, you know, that would be pretty cool, because then that's, like, a win win for.
For everybody involved in that, and people still get to go and enjoy it.
And money has had to be around, you know? So I think that's. That's kind of what we're thinking is, boy, if there's some way we could buy this land and whoever is the holder of it, not saying that it's the park, but there's other organizations out there that buy that, buy land for conservation purposes and preservation purposes. So.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be best case scenario. Oh, my gosh. Like, just as you said, that would just be a win win. And, gosh, do I hope that happens. So I think probably the last big question that is, where is all of this right now? Like, how close is the mind to, like, being? All right, here we go. Everything's ready to go and we're just having. You and I are just talking to the wind right now, or is there really a chance that we could stop this before it is something destructive?
[00:51:34] Speaker B: I mean, I think there's a chance that we could stop this. We are.
Let's see. 2019 was the beginning of a ten year exploratory mining contract.
So we still have several years of exploratory mining left, which means there's several more years of things we can do, red tape that we can throw at them.
I know that there's some organizations out there that are really, really upset about this and are going, hey, like, have you thought about, like, there's the clean Air act, there's the regional haze act, there's all these things like, that are associated with wilderness areas that I'm like, how are you gonna address those? You know, you're not gonna have class one like air quality and things like that when you bring in all this industrialization.
And the other thing is, how are they gonna figure out how to mitigate the cooking lit beluga wells, you know, if you're gonna be putting a deep water port in? So there's lots of things that we can be like, hey, you, you need to really address this. And things that we can either slow down or stop or throw enough at them where we're like, you have not thought through this.
And that's the goal, is we're gonna keep chipping away at it and just being like, look, you keep saying that this is not gonna impact wildlife or impact the environment. And I'm like, tell me how it's not going to. And so I think in the next couple of years, we're just going to really work on finding these, like refining these arguments that are like, you have to address this. You can't just be like, it's not going to hurt the fish, you know, it's not going to hurt the landscape.
You know, I'm like, contamination is a huge thing in a pristine where there is no contamination. Right now we have, I think the park is going to continue to do testing on the areas so that they have like this baseline. So if the mine were to come in, they could see, you know, oh, this was this quality. And now we've seen with this development, the quality is a lot lower and it's contaminated. So I think, I think that's our goal is to just keep working on this, continuing to get more groups involved. There's a lot of groups here in Alaska that really care about this issue, but it's tough. You know, we have offices of, like, five people working on different issues, and. But that's why we all come together. You know, we're creating this group, this, like, coalition where we have subject matter experts in. In everything. So we've got subject matter experts on belugas, bears, maybe the economics of it, water quality. And when you put all them together, that creates this, you know, incredible group that if you need comments on anything, you can go to that group and they can write these comments because they're the subject matter experts. So we're just going to work as best we can together and getting the word out so that we can have more people supporting the work that we're doing and really kind of helping. I mean, all of this, all this ultimately costs money, right? So working on trying to find funding sources and people who want to support this work is going to be really important going forward because we're not made out of money. You know, we're like a nonprofit, so we rely on donations and things. And I would say a majority of the folks working on this are nonprofits, so their funding is limited. But we. We can do a lot together. And that's what I'm really excited about is Alaskans come together, and when there's these important resources and values at risk, that's where you really see Alaskans show up. And we love support from the lower 48. We couldn't do it without them because we don't have that many people in Alaska.
So it's cool when we can see everybody coming together for one purpose, to stop the mind in this situation.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Which I think the next logical question then is how can we help? How can I help? How can anybody tuning in today or part of the riotology community, what can we do to potentially raise our voice, maybe donate anything, take next steps to stop the mine?
[00:56:29] Speaker B: Well, I would say, you know, first off, stay engaged with us.
Following National Park's conservation association, we have instagram, we have Facebook. You know, I think we have Twitter. I don't tweet. Is that the thing? I don't tweet.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: Tweet on x still.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: We have all these things that you can follow, and then people, like, people can also reach out to me or you can Google, like, Alaska program, and my name's gonna pop up, you know, and even, like, natural habitat adventures, they are really, you know, they're worried about this. They have a really cool camp that's south of this potential mine. And so just, you know, following some of these, some of. Some of these groups, staying engaged checking on the Lake Clark National park website, where they would. Where you would submit comments, things like that. I mean, if you've been to this landscape, which is Lake Clark National park, and I would say, you know, like, if you could write a paper or write a article, you know, just continuing to spread the word that, hey, this is a really incredible experience that I had in this place.
We should protect it. Those are just ways, you know, I mean, of course, there's always, like, the donating money aspect of it, but I think the biggest thing is getting the word out, sharing it. If you hear this podcast, like, share it with someone who doesn't know anything about Lake Clark, worst case scenario, they learned about a really cool national park that they should come visit.
You know, we get, like, we only get, like, 18,000 visitors a year at Lake Clark. But it's because it's hard. It's hard to get to. You have to fly over there, but it's 100% worth it. And so maybe you were just, like, coming to visit the landscape or watching documents on it. You know, there's several documents out there on Lake Clark.
I think Disney even did something with Disney bears or something. I think they filmed over in the Bear coast region. So, you know, just continuing to elevate it, talk about it.
Submitting a comment in November. Like, look for that comment period. There's gonna be. There's definitely gonna be some social media out on it where it says where we're gonna say, hey, please submit a comment. You know, and we'll try to put together a toolkit so that you can create an effective comment. If you've never commented before, it can be super intimidating because you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, I have to attach my name to this official comment that's gonna be on record forever. But, you know, just think of the key things that I talked about. Like, what about cooking at beluga wells? Like, they're endangered. There's, like 300 left of them. You know, brown bears, clams, fisheries, all sorts of wildlife, birds. Birds is a huge thing. I know there's a huge birding community, and where this deep water port would be, there's an island called Chiswick island, and it's owned by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, but it is one of the largest seabird colonies in the cook inlet. And so there's thousands and thousands and thousands of birds that come, and it's like a migratory stop. So it's extremely important for the birding community to have that area, that wilderness area, and the food that Tuck Sydney Bay provides.
Yeah. Just really just raising awareness, keeping, keeping up with us, keeping in touch.
All of those things will help. The more people that know about this, the better, so.
[01:00:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I will make sure that I do my part and I will share all updates. I will make sure that I'm signed up for alerts as well. And then, Jen, if you could, also, whenever anything is updated, let me know and I will spread it out with the community as well. There is a newsletter that rewrote ology sends out, and so I will do my best to let everyone know as well when that comment period is coming up with, you know, NPCA's help instructions, anything that you can send our way. I've never. Oh, well, I did for pebble mine. I did submit a comment for that, and that was with help by some very knowledgeable bear guides, Drew Hamilton, who was on the show, we talked a lot about salmon, and it was by pebble mine. We're talking about the salmon for the sake of the pebble mine for that one, so. And everybody knows Drew. He's an amazing person. And so it's just crazy to.
That was like, what, year and a half ago we were talking about that and already sitting down talking about Alaska for mine again. I just want to come up and see it. I don't know how. I haven't seen the bears yet. Of all the crazy adventures I've been on, I have not seen the bears yet. And so maybe that's one of the best things that we could do. I know. Maybe all of us listening. All of you listening. Let's go plan a trip.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: Let's go.
[01:01:45] Speaker A: I mean, Arthur, good friend Arthur is a guide up there. Like, yeah, we have. I have a lot of connections up there, and now you.
So maybe that has to happen in 2025. Everybody, let's go to Alaska. Let's go see some bears do it. And coastal wolves, and you can see moose. And I know I mostly focus on mammals, but just like you said, there's bears. There's these amazing endangered beluga whales, apparently, that I didn't even know about until I met you, so. And all the migrant, other migratory whales, you know, could go whale watching for a lot of other stuff, too. So it's just, Alaska is just such an incredible place, and we need to protect it, but we also need to make sure that the communities there are well supported. Uh, both, both. All communities. Everybody. Like, there's so many different stakeholders involved with this, and so what solutions can we put together that ensures that everybody is well taken care of and that we don't completely f up the land more than we have.
[01:02:42] Speaker B: So. Yep.
[01:02:46] Speaker A: Well, Jen, thank you so much again for getting up very early in the morning to talk to me, to talk to all of us and share your, what you've been working on now for years.
The Johnson track mine. Definitely keep us posted, keep all of us in the know, and I will be sure to share as much as I can to hopefully get this thing stopped.
[01:03:09] Speaker B: Thanks, Brooke. I really, I really do appreciate it, like you providing this opportunity to really get our voice out there and, you know, to share a little bit of, like, how much passion and love I have for this place. Like, these landscapes are just, they're irreplaceable and everyone should experience it, whether they do it in person or through photos or video or whatever. It's just, it's an incredible place to experience and learn about. So, yeah, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about it.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: Absolutely.
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