[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey fellow revotologists. Brooke here.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: I had a whole new episode planned for you this week, but my special guest was affected by the devastating hurricanes Helene and Milton.
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Don't worry, thankfully she's fine and we are working on another time to record.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: I didn't want to leave you hanging.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: However, so I decided to reshare one.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Of the show's top episodes from 2023 called Rewilding Islands to benefit the sea, removing the land ocean barrier with Coral wolf. And yes, I still think Coral has.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: The best name of all time.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: She is a scientist at the fantastic.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Organization Island Conservation and she came on to share her latest findings about rewilding islands. Enjoy.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Today's episode is part two of our four part women in conservation science series.
Last week we traveled to South Africa and learned about snakes with Hirol Naik, a fantastic lady biologist that is helping change the narrative for herps in Africa.
This week we are island hopping and meeting an incredible woman scientist that is at the forefront of rewilding our islands.
In this conversation, we're sitting down with Coral Wolfenheid. Yes, she has the best name of all time. Conservation science program manager at Island Conservation.
Coral knew from an early age that she wanted to work in wildlife, but wasn't quite sure in what way. After college, she took all kinds of field jobs searching for her passion and naturally gravitated towards islands. Her future was solidified when she worked on the big island of Hawaii, monitoring endangered hawksbill sea turtle nests. There she saw the devastation invasive predators have on vulnerable wildlife and has been working in island restoration ever since.
Karl and I have a great discussion chatting about the journey she undertook to find a career in island restoration, why our islands are vulnerable and need extra help reverting back to their pristine state. The revolutionary paper she co authored about the island marine connection and how restoring islands benefits the surrounding marine ecosystem system, removing silos and conservation, how island conservation chooses locations to rewild, and wonderful tips for anyone that is or wants to be a parent while working in this field really quickly. If you would like more background information on the topics coral and I discuss, check out episode 89 before or after today's conversation to understand the importance of invasive species species eradications on islands. That conversation is with three stellar scientists, also from island conservation, and they do a marvelous job laying the foundation for today's discussion. But let's get to today's chat, everyone. Here is my conversation with coral.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Well, hi Coral. Thank you so much for sitting down with me and the whole rewaterology community and teaching us this really cool connection that might change the way we restore islands, which is just, ah, I'm so excited to learn from you. But first, islands obviously didn't just appear in your life. So why did you decide to take this path into marine conservation and how did you get here and what you're doing today?
[00:03:38] Speaker C: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me, Brooke. Yeah. My name's Coral Wolf. My job currently is to help understand the impact of island restoration actions. And I work at island conservation. It's a nonprofit, and our mission is to prevent extinctions through the removal of invasive species from islands. How I got here.
So, you know, I always kind of had a general interest in wildlife animals conservation, and not sure what I wanted to do with it. I ended up with an undergrad degree in psychology and animal behavior, so that didn't really direct me too clearly to where I am today. But I started doing field jobs and really got exposed to a whole variety of ecosystems. I was traveling around after undergrad in these short term positions and worked in everything from wetlands in central Florida to Amazon forest in Peru, and eventually just really started working more and more on islands. And it turns out there's a lot of field work on islands. There's a lot of conservation need, research needs on islands. And so those began to just pop up more and more. One of the jobs that kind of, I remember really drawing me in, and one of the first positions I had on the, on island was working on the island of Hawaii or the Big island, and there I was assisting with a hawksbill sea turtle monitoring program, and we were walking the beach looking for hatchlings in the middle of the night, emerging from their nests. And these hatchlings are just supposed to follow the moon's reflection on the ocean and get into the water essentially as quickly as possible.
But they can get disoriented, and they are also really easy prey for all these invasive predators. So these introduced animals, and that was kind of my introduction into the impacts that those animals have on these island ecosystems as well. So there we were worried about invasive cats, feral cats, rats, and then also these introduced mongoose that could all eat the hatchlings. And, you know, walking a beach, rescuing these helpless sea turtle hatchlings, it really pulls at your heartstrings and kind of was like one of these first instances where I really got hooked and turned on to islands and what I could do to help the native species there.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, I can only imagine what I would be like, oh, at mongooses, too. I didn't even know that that was that was potentially an invasive species on islands, let alone where you worked or. Oh, I can imagine how you felt.
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Yeah. The mongoose, it's interesting. They were introduced, so it's like a weasel, and they're native to India, and they have been introduced to Hawaii island in the late 18 hundreds. So they've been there now for a while, but they were introduced to control rats in the sugarcanes and so. But unfortunately, the mongoose there, diurnal, and the rats that they were introduced to control are nocturnal, so they've had no effect. And we're the cause, again, of these introductions, these disruptions to these native ecosystems.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: Wow. So we are already diving in already. This is awesome. We're like, already, like the topic of today we are already at, which is fantastic. Well, just like you said and what you saw very early in your career, like, once you started to get your passion, your why is you were seeing the direct effects of these invasive species on your.
Your work species, which were these hawksbill, endangered sea turtle like babies, just getting them from their nesting site over into the ocean. And so already you see the conservation issue there. Like, your why? And just for a timeline sake, around what year was this to help us put the rest of your work together?
[00:08:01] Speaker C: Yeah, so that was in the early two thousands. It was probably like 2005 or something. And I. Yeah, from there, I just started working, seeking out really more and more field jobs where I got to be exposed to these amazing endemic species only found in these unique, hard to get to places and just how inevitable it is. You also get exposed to their threats then, as a result, one of those being these introduced predators.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Right. And so I think this is a perfect opportunity then to maybe give a recap of this issue.
The way I view our fantastic conversation today, it's pretty much part two of episode 89 with three of your amazing colleagues, Dave, Dina and Nick. We had this fantastic conversation about invasive species on islands and how removing them is like, oh, my gosh, it's amazing for island restoration. And that's a fantastic episode. And everyone should not that you necessarily need to stop this episode and go back, but I make sure you listen to it sometime as part of this conversation because they go very well together. So. But before, to make sure that the rest of this conversation makes sense, could you maybe give us a synopsis of what invasive species, like what they are doing to our islands? You just gave a fantastic example, but maybe go down a little bit more details and also, too, maybe in general, like, what is going on with our islands and yeah, that would be great. Just. Just teach us a little bit. Give us a background before we go forward.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So islands are really important geographic locations. They're biodiversity hotspots. And through evolution, these unique species have evolved in these places in the absence of mammalian predators.
One great example, you think of the galapagos. One of the reasons people love to visit the galapagos is not only to see these unique species, you can only see there, but also the animals are not afraid. You get these great photo opportunities. They're sitting on the side of the trail as you walk by, and in some cases, they've completely lost the ability to fly away. So an example is the flightless cormorant there. Through evolution, they've lost their ability to fly compared to some of their closest relatives you can see along the California coast, for example. So, yeah, you have unique species, you have species that have lost their predator responses. And then that's why when we introduce these, what we call invasive species, so species that do really well, they're brought by humans, and then they spread, they harm their new environment by out competing or depredating the native species, then that's where their removal becomes so important. So when we're thinking about conservation, we want to think about where can we stop these accidental and deliberate introductions that have been caused by humans? Because the invasive species are driving declines on islands of our native species, they're causing extirpations and extinctions and.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's definitely one of the main topics and one of the biggest takeaways from that great conversation in episode 89. So when we're looking at island conservation as a whole, like our islands across the globe, what is actually going on? Is invasive species the number one issue? Are there more things going on? Is this the most bang for your buck? Essentially, this we're doing, this one thing has the best cascading effects, or where. Where is removing invasive species in the greater scheme of rewilding our islands?
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Well, it's definitely one of those restoration actions that has really clear outcomes and benefits that we've been able to measure over time. Where we've been able to remove invasive species, we have tools that are able to accomplish that, and we're able to have the best return on investment. When we're looking at restoration actions and being able to down list some species that have been listed as extinct in the wild, and with the removal of invasive species, being able to say they're now able to reproduce and are safe and actually growing populations on some of these islands.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. So obviously, restoring islands has fantastic and amazing benefits to the island ecosystem itself. You know, we can see these, remove these rats, and all of a sudden nesting birds are coming back and on and on. And so many examples that I'm sure you can give, but our conversation is the next level of this. And so could you maybe give us some information on how exactly is our islands and seas connected? And how does restoring islands then benefit the surrounding sea?
[00:13:32] Speaker C: Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, my background, what I didn't say at the beginning, you know, I am a terrestrial biologist, so all of my exposure up until recently has been on the islands, not around them, despite my name. So I love your name.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: I love your name so much.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: So, you know, we as researchers, we have this tunnel vision sometimes, right? And I think what was appealing to me about research on islands was that there were a little, there were boundaries. You know, I could pick a place and really get to know it, and those were artificial. And so I think that's really what we're learning. And what's been really cool about the research that's been coming out in really, the last, you know, ten years or so is that these specialties, these artificial silos we create as a terrestrial biologist, aren't we need to be looking outside of those?
Maybe one example to give you of where I came from, when I was learning about these connections with the marine environment, a project I was involved in was on Palmyra atoll, and it's an atoll 1000 miles south of Hawaii. And our organization, along with us, Fish and Wildlife Service and the Nature Conservancy, worked on a rat eradication project there to help protect some of the terrestrial biodiversity. That was the original stated goal.
We collected baseline data there, looking at what does the vegetation look like before the rat eradication, for example, this is a place that it was, you know, we have photos I. Hopefully we can share with you, but it's just amazing, the, the native forest. We went back just one month after the rat eradication, and, you know, one of these plots just had a carpet of seedlings and it was just, you know, go back to the lab and look at the pre eradication data. There wasn't anything like that we weren't seeing. You know, we had assumed that the rats had been eating the seeds and the seedlings, but really hadn't.
You don't know exactly how much of an impact they're having until you see that release from their predation and went back a year later and those seedlings are growing and this native forest is now able to regenerate on its own. And it was just really impactful for me.
We are seeing the same thing with other species within that native forest, the coconut crabs. Those populations do better in that native forest. The arthropod diversity is higher. Seabird nesting, that's where that forest is providing seabird nesting habitat. And so you start seeing all these connections within the terrestrial environment and around that same time, because there's marine researchers there at Palmyra Atoll as well. Doug McCulley, who is now at UC Santa Barbara, he came out with a paper looking at some of the marine metrics, and one thing he found was in his team was that manta ray abundance was much higher around the native forest coastline. And the connection he drew was that the seabird roosting and nesting in these native forests, in the native trees, was helping to fertilize the soil, which helped to increase the coastal nutrients. And then therefore, the abundance of plankton increased along those coastlines, which attracted manta rays, their food resource being planked in. And so all of a sudden, all these connections were flowing down into the ocean. And it was in contrast to some of this, there's also coconut palm forests on this atoll. So you could really see a distinction between where man arrays were spending more time versus along the native forest versus the coconut palm forest. And that would just. I mean, it blew my mind. There was all of a sudden all these new areas to explore. And since then, all these other marine researchers have dug into this, you know, the connectivity between the land and sea.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah, which totally brings up your paper. That's the main topic of today. So let's just start diving in that literally and figuratively, this paper that you were part of writing, which could be very revolutionary on the way we look at island and marine, you know, restoration moving forward, which is, oh, it's so fantastic and just gets me tingly. Like, you know, what, what's the future for? How we are going to rewild our islands? And so, yeah, could you actually, let's just start learning from you and what you all wrote about and discovered. So could you take me, like, what is the name of your paper? And maybe what are some the highlight takeaways? We don't need to go down to, like, the super nitty gritty, but if. What is the things that we should know about what you all published in this historic paper?
[00:18:42] Speaker C: Sure. So the papers called Harnessing island Ocean connections to maximize marine benefits of island conservation. And it was co led by Stuart Sandin, who's at Scripps Institution of Oceanography at UC San Diego, and Penny Becker, who works with me at island conservation. And I guess maybe to set the stage, I think one of the things that was really clear early on. And so I should maybe take a step back first and say that the paper brought together a large group of researchers. So as experts from a variety of fields representing all different expertises, as I was saying, my background is terrestrial. And so it was starting to think about this holistic approach to islands. And historically, human societies living along the coast understood and managed terrestrial and marine natural resources together.
The Hawaiians have a ridge to reef model called the Ahupua system. And so we knew historically, people knew that these systems were linked to. And what had happened is western researchers science had begun to catch up and break down these silos. So there had been growing research that linked seabird communities with faster growing reef populations around those islands. Increased rates of coral recovery after bleaching events from climate change.
Some other research out of New Zealand demonstrated that high seabird densities had higher biodiversity of macroalgae. So there started to be all these connections that researchers were pulling together.
They were all built on these natural experiments where islands with high density of seabirds were compared with those that had low density of seabirds. And what was clear is that the high density of seabird islands also had no invasive predator mammals compared to the low density seabird islands where invasive predator mammals were present. So the purpose of the paper was to expand our understanding of how and when the eradication of invasive mammals could be utilized as a tool just to benefit these ocean ize conservation and management goals. We have specific examples, like the one in New Zealand and some of these other ones that have come out of the Chagos archipelago and the Indian Ocean. But are there generalities that we can make? What can we learn about these land sea linkages, and where should we be going next?
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Perfect. And I think that this might be to maybe make this more understandable or like visual or concrete or. I don't know what the term is. I'm looking for to go from theory to actual practice. So I think maybe a good example that maybe you could explain to help teach us what exactly is you're talking about is I kept seeing this term when I was reading through all the materials called connector species. So what is a connector species and how do they fit into all of this? And how important are they for the island ocean connection and conservation restoration?
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Yeah, that's great. So exactly the connector species, seabirds, are the ones that have been really studied to date in the examples I was saying. But we're looking at a whole suite of species that could be land crabs, sea turtles, sea lions. It's any species that spends much of their life cycle at sea, but also has periods on land. When they come to land, those species are transferring nutrients. The seabirds, for example, are foraging at sea, but then they bring nutrients back to the land, and then they're depositing those nutrients via guano and eggs and feathers. And there's marine derived nutrients that are now being deposited on land. Percolate, bring your fertilize that land in soil, but then also move into that near shore ocean system as well and fertilize that. So those are the species we're really interested in measuring because they are the clear connectors in nutrient transfer in that cycle.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome because, yeah, just reading that part and like, oh, my.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Oh, that makes total sense.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Literally, species that connect these two vital ecosystems. It's just how they operate. You know, these birds that spend all the time at sea eating all kinds of fish and yummy stuff, and then, yeah, they go breed and poop and all kinds of stuff on these islands. And it all, it's all. It just makes sense. Like, just like you said, we've been so siloed for so long as scientists, but it's like wildlife doesn't know these silos. It's like I live half my life on land and half it on water, and that's just how it goes.
[00:24:03] Speaker C: Right, exactly, exactly. So they can teach us something for sure.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And speaking of teaching, and there's one part in the paper that I thought was really interesting, and I love that science is starting to really accept and give respect where it's due for traditional ecological knowledge, or tek. So how with your guys work and everything, has that been being written down or communicated or with local communities on these islands? So what is the connection between TeC and island restoration from your guys's work perspective and point of view?
[00:24:47] Speaker C: So, you know, local communities are really at the center of these projects. They're driving what we, you know, where we're doing the work. What we're interested in measuring and identifying how local communities can benefit from this work is. Is really critical to all of these projects. So, for example, doing information exchanges, sharing knowledge and experience between partners, that's been a really important aspect of just understanding island and marine land management practices so that we have all different team members coming together and collaborating in a more holistic approach to island restoration.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Nice, nice. Yeah, because the people side of it. It's just as important. I mean, yeah, it's. And that this actually kind of leads me to my next question. So it is important that we can get as many islands back to their pre human disturbance stage as much as possible so they're thriving again. And whatever that definition means for that island, what is thriving? So how do you choose islands to restore? Like, what is the criteria that. Because, I mean, again, there's. There's only so much finite resources. We only have so much money. It's not like we can all go out and be like, we have all this new information. Let's just go make all the islands awesome. That's not possible as of now. So how do you go about what islands to do next? Like, what's the next on the radar? We need to do this, this and this. How do you choose?
[00:26:29] Speaker C: Yeah, so, you know, first of all, it's all done through partnership, us as an organization, the work that we do. We're not landowners. We're constantly seeking out new collaborators and really trying to understand the needs of local communities, local governments, and then there's just not one single answer or one, you know, something that fits right for all islands or all projects. We examine a host of factors, and definitely that includes the feasibility of the project from a logistics standpoint, the potential for human and conservation benefits. So it's complex. You know, it's a dynamic process and really is always, you know, it's done in partnership.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Do you help make those partnerships? Out of curiosity, or are you more of just the science side, I guess? What's your role in that?
[00:27:28] Speaker C: Yeah, so I definitely am working on partnerships on the science side. So not necessarily the decisions around the restoration actions, but when we're thinking about what work is, could potentially get done evaluating what benefits might be there and then who might be our local and regional governmental partners that we would get involved with to measure impacts.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Okay, so that makes sense. So then let's say in the science aisle for a while. So me automatically, just as my biologist brain just starts going down the tunnel, because it's pretty obvious for those of us that study terrestrial ecosystems, like, okay, this island is clearly doing better. There's more native vegetation. The wildlife's coming back. Now, how exactly you had that great example of the manta rays coming back, but how exactly can you measure or, you know, the impact that island restoration is having on the surrounding sea? What is that connection from, like, a science side?
[00:28:33] Speaker C: So.
Well, you know, part of it is using a lot. You know, there's a lot of different metrics involved, and we're collecting both terrestrial and marine measures concurrently. And that's part of the new steps we're hoping to move forward within, you know, what the goals of this paper is essentially calling out is how can we understand, and I strengthen our understanding of these linkages and do that in a way that we're collaborating between research types and different areas of study. So in the case of the terrestrial marine question, we couldn't collect those data concurrently and then at the same time be able to, for example, take stable isotope measures which have a real clear way of indicating whether there are marine derived nutrients moving through the system. And are we capturing that both in the terrestrial environment as well as the marine environment? Are seabirds increasing? That would be an indication. If there's more seabirds and more marine derived nutrients in both the terrestrial and marine environment, that would be also a clear indication. We also use control islands. That's a rule. Important part of our survey design as we're developing these projects so that we can understand and compare against islands that haven't had restoration action. Nice.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, so that totally makes sense. So this is almost like a, like.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: A call to arms.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Like, let's remove these silos and work together to show that when we do this, we're also benefiting this and how. So that's awesome. I mean, to be at the forefront of this and hopefully maybe going forward the way that Marine island restoration is done together, that's really, really exciting. So with all of this background information in mind and you've, you've hinted, you've given us some sort of, you know, some examples from, you know, here and here, like that demonstrate, you know, this point and this point I would love. Could you actually take us through a full example of this from your career? Like, you know, step number one, like this is an island that I worked on and this is what we did and these were the outcomes just to help us come into your world, what does this actually look like?
[00:31:05] Speaker C: Well, the island Ocean monitoring aspect is brand new. You know, that's something that we're just initiating on some of these islands. So one of the initiatives that island conservation and our partners are working on is called the Island Ocean Connection Challenge campaign. And that really is kind of what you're describing before this call to arms, island conservation and partners working to create this coalition, interested and working together to build these data sets and restore islands. The goal of that campaign is restoring 40 islands by 2030. And so really growing this body of data between the marine and terrestrial environment and looking at these holistic benefits of restoring islands through collaboration, kind of what we were talking about before. So that work is really, you know, we're just initiating some of those first projects, looking at planning the eradications, collecting the baseline data around the. So the pre eradication data. And one of the projects I'm working on right now is in Palau, it's called Oolong island. And we have rat eradication plan for early this year. And that's one of these first projects that were pulling together all these different stakeholders around these different, both marine and terrestrial environments and building a monitoring plan and beginning to collect these data. So I don't have a good story for you of like the finale, the final pieces.
I could tell you plenty of terrestrial stories, but unfortunately the marine stories, it's like we're just, like you said, we're at the forefront right now. It's just we don't have talk to me in ten years and I'll tell you about all the amazing things that all the findings we've had. But right now it's the new and exciting part of really what we can do next. And that's what the paper is really about, is like, here's what we can be doing. We're excited to find out what's next and what's around the corner because right now we know just about these really specific geographies. But how do they compare? How does the temperate and the tropical and the different island environmental factors around these islands all play into this connection? There's just so much to learn.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Oh, so exciting. That's why we just got to keep, like doing update interviews, be like, okay, how's this going? And just to tell us more, but let's maybe, let's use Palau and how this is getting set up right now. So you said the word stakeholders, and I love that you brought this up because I'm all about, there's so many voices when it comes to this. So who are the stakeholders that is involved in this specific project and then maybe what are their roles and how the is moving forward?
[00:34:07] Speaker C: Yeah. So right now we're working with government stakeholders as well as local, nonprofit and community members that we're working with to develop both the marine and terrestrial monitoring plans and then implementing those. So we have, you know, it's a really long process of being able to identify individual needs and then opportunities, for example, for trainings around new technologies for collecting quantitative and qualitative data and then also developing a plan for how do we share those data after they've been collected, if it's using a new technology, how do we make those data most accessible to the community members following this long term monitoring over time. So it's been, you know, it ends up being a lot of meetings and probably less time out in the field because it's making sure that we're meeting everyone's needs, you know, and where people are at with the project and with the questions that people are most excited about when we're thinking about, for example, in Palau, the health of the marine environment has huge impacts for tourism as well as fisheries, and the local community depends on both. So what kind of metrics around the marine environment will be of most interest to the community? Similarly, there might be food resources on these islands that we want to make sure, or cultural resources. Historically, we want to make sure that we're measuring those or documenting the impact of these island restoration appropriately.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Oh, that's fantastic. That's so exciting. And have you, have you had a chance to go to Palau and do, since you have had the opportunity to restore other islands, are you already seeing some opportunities for island restoration that will then hopefully benefit the ocean, or is it still too early or from your, from your expertise, what have you seen being there?
[00:36:15] Speaker C: Yeah, so I have been a couple of times now and most of my work has. Again, it's in the terrestrial environment, and then we're getting to go out with our marine partners and jump in the water and see how, you know, how they're collecting the data, see how they're training local community members to collect those data as well as, you know, my terrestrial work. So again, information sharing and, you know, trying to do it all in concert with one another. But it's really exciting. You know, we're not at the point the rats are still on the island. We aren't at the point of getting to see, you know, what kind of restoration benefits we'll be able to capture and what kind of timeline that might be. But I think that as far as building momentum, that's been a really exciting piece, especially because it's an island nation. There's so much more work to be done and this is just, this is a stepping stone in a way, to start, you know, if we can demonstrate proof of concept that there are, you know, human and marine and potentially climate benefits, there's just so much more that could get accomplished.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think this also might be a great example to maybe give us a little bit more background onto how islands are selected. So why was Palau specifically the island that was chosen for this, I guess this launch of this new way of doing island restoration to benefit the marine ecosystem as well. So what exactly about Palau made it the launch point of this?
[00:37:59] Speaker C: That's a hard question.
So definitely we have had a long relationship working in Palau. This isn't our first project there, but it is our first opportunity for a case study around the island ocean connection. And that's where we're able to really capitalize on some things that are key to this geography. You know, marine resources are really important, and so we've done small eradications, removal of invasive species, but this is now an opportunity to start measuring impact because there's so much more to do. And we also know a lot of the data that has been published has been in the tropics. So that also feels like, oh, this is another geography where we might be able to capture some of this nuance and connectivity and just learn so much more. These are very different islands in a lot of ways as well. They're limestone, they, you know, it's every island, you know, as we hop around and explore all the islands of the world, each one is going to provide its kind of its own opportunity as well.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Oh, that's so cool. So it's like. Stay tuned. Yeah, this is just being launched and it's going to be really exciting. So the whole island conservation team, you, everyone will have to come back on and let us know how these things are going and what kind of data that you are seeing moving forward, which is really exciting. Do you. I know you said that you don't necessarily have a timeline yet, like all of that is being built, but if you had, if, if all factors were perfect, which we never, we always know it never happens that way. But what kind of timeline are you envisioning if everything in the future goes exactly as you think it might or could, what is the time scale that we are looking at from today to like, we have the data and this is, this, these are our quote unquote answers.
[00:40:08] Speaker C: Well, maybe the first thing I should say is I have so much to learn just in this space in general. So I think we all do in a lot of ways. And so although the research has been done comparing islands with seabirds and without, with invasive species and without, what we don't know is how long does it take to necessary for these islands to recover when the invasive species are removed, we can help to facilitate recovery, increase the rate of recovery by attracting seabirds to recolonize islands, for example. So there's work around reintroductions, bringing some of these connector species back, helping to increase the rate of their return. But in the end, and we're really reliant on them and their life history, their life cycle and what they can do to increase this connectivity, right. Like bring these nutrients back. So that's where we could hypothesize that this would be maybe a ten year. Like if we found significant change in a ten year time span, that would be thrilling. That would be really exciting. But we definitely see seabirds populations responding within that timeline and also much quicker so they can repopulate and just grow substantially. That has been documented. So what we don't know is then that nutrient cycle getting into that marine food web and causing change there. So anything could happen and every environment is going to be different. I mean that's the, you know, the beauty of it, right, is like, we don't know yet what we're. What's going to uncover. And that's why every one of these case studies that we're trying to develop is going to be able to tell us a little bit more. And yeah, I think the restoration actions that we can employ, like the social, like social attraction where we're putting sound systems on islands and calling birds to come and recolonize those islands, that's going to help move things even quicker.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: I love science. I love nature. This is so much fun. Like, I'm just geeking out so hard. So let's actually turn it back to you. So unfortunately we are. Well, not unfortunately, but we are sitting virtually together to do this interview.
Ultimate is if I was actually there on an island and could show everybody what it is that you do and how you do it. Like, that's the ultimate. Maybe that's a goal in the future that we can work on since we don't have that luxury right now. Could you maybe take me into a day in the life of coral?
[00:43:00] Speaker B: What?
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Like take me through one of your projects and what this means, what this does, because I would imagine even though you are still working on, like you are transitioning into this island ocean conservation side, you are a terrestrial specialist. So what? What do you do? Like, you're like, I'm on this island and go, just take us through an example. I would love to hear what your job is.
[00:43:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Well, come on a trip, please.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Island conservation. You heard it here. Let's go.
[00:43:33] Speaker C: You're invited anytime.
Well, I'll tell you maybe a more exciting day because I don't think you want to hear about my office days, which are the majority.
So I think, you know, maybe one story or one day that could be particularly exceptional is visiting these islands. You know, they're just a lot of it is the physically emotionally draining, you know, parts of being in the field. You know, you're in really remote conditions, difficult to access. And when you get out there, though, these locations just build you up. Especially what I enjoy is getting to return to these islands after doing the restoration action. And, for example, I went to an island. I have another trip planned actually coming up later on this year, so put it on your calendar. But this island in Chile, Choros island, we had removed rabbits from the island and I went back there and got to spend a couple weeks. And we've seen. So Churros island has these, this seabird, it's called the peruvian diving petrel. It looks like a flying football. They adorable and they, they burrow and, you know, their nests are these little burrows on the island. And we have removed rabbits from the island. The rabbits had been ejecting the birds from their burrows. The rabbits also like to use those burrows. And Choros island, it was one of the few hold ons for the species in Chile. And the species at the time had been listed as endangered and the population was declining. And going back to these locations has just, it, it fills you up because, you know, you see them kind of at their worst and then getting to do this difficult field work. But out there, you know, in this case, we would be counting burrows, looking at the, how big are the colonies, how are they growing and being able to create these maps and then overlay and see how small the colony was and how much bigger each year afterward and just starts expanding and expanding. And the number of burrows is increasing, their density is increasing. And just being out there at night and hearing the seabird calls and just knowing that you're part of it in some small way, I think that's, you know, that's what makes all the computer time and, you know, the difficult field time and being away from family and loved ones, you know, really enjoyable.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: Yes, that sounds incredible. Cause our work is so hard in conservation. I mean, it's all driven on passion. Cause you have to be slightly crazy to do a lot of time of what we do. You know, it's just easier to be in an office and do an office job. Those jobs are definitely needed, but I feel that most of us have a, have a little special secret sauce somewhere in us that gets. We keep going when a lot of people would quit, we keep going like you're still here doing what you're doing. And I'm sure there's been some days that have been unbelievably hard and what you do, just like you said. And that brings me to my next question, and something I love to ask everyone that comes in that comes on the show is there are days that suck and they are really crappy. We've just spent how long talking about you're part of this really rewarding island restoration and the forefront of this new science that's hopefully going to restore not only islands, but also the marine ecosystem around.
So what are some struggles that you've had to personally go through and overcome that maybe you will be okay sharing with me and the whole rebodology community?
[00:47:28] Speaker C: Yeah. So I'd say in recent years it's definitely been parenting and the logistics around parenting. Both my husband and I are biologists and we both travel a fair amount of for work or can travel. And so being able to do that definitely has required a fair amount of, like, advanced training and logistics. We don't have a, you know, childcare available to us here, you know, grandparents or something that can just pick up when we need to leave. And, you know, it's been really helpful being able to support each other in our work, but at the same time, logistics can be a nightmare sometimes. We had one time where I had work in Chile and had a field outing there for a couple weeks, and this is when our daughter was a two year old. At the time, we both had a workshop we wanted to attend in Tahiti. So he. So from Chile, I flew to Tahiti. He flew with our daughter to Tahiti. We were able to arrange childcare with this woman to take her while we both attended the workshop. And then he had to leave immediately to go to another field site that didn't allow children, so he left without her. I kept her and went to the field site that I had to get special permission into. So I was still in Tahiti, but ended to allow her to come and just ended up carrying her around, you know, on my chest or back. And she. She's become an expert in tropical seabirds and animals. So she's yelling and pointing. White, turn, white, turn, and coco crabby. And so she, you know, it was good, but it's like, like it's hard to both be a parent and also juggle the requirements of work at the same time. So that's the newest hurdle, I think. But, yeah, so many, right as you go through this journey in field biology and science in general.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love that you bring that up because I feel that a lot of us, me included, when we go into this field.
Being a parent seems like it's crazy hard and a lot of us either choose not to do it or if we do, a lot of people have to end their career to become a parent. And so it's beautiful to hear that you and your husband have found a way to continue with your awesome biologist careers while also being parents. So if you might, do you have a piece of advice or something that you would like to share to someone who is maybe thinking about becoming a parent in this industry or even specifically as like mom to mom? Like if you want to speak to the women that are listening, what would you like to share from your experience so far as being a mother in this field and maybe someone who's thinking about it in one way or another?
[00:50:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I've had colleagues ask me that question because it definitely can be a challenge and also what expectations of you might change. Right. I went into the field when I was pregnant and that had its own hurdles. So just trying, you know, there's always things, and every individual is going to be different too, as far as what their comfort level and what's going to work for their partnership and all of that. But I think that, you know, the thing that's probably worked for us as parents, as being open and maybe part and just open to new, to not putting limits on what's possible that it is okay to and a lot of other cultures. And maybe this is, we might have this perspective a little bit because we've worked outside of the continental United States where family and work oftentimes is very separate. And when you travel and work in other cultures, oftentimes that's not the case. And people have kids, people are happy to just pick up your kid and carry them around for a while, or they might. They might be happy to go play with them while you give a presentation at a conference. And so bringing that to your community, whoever that is, and introducing them to that concept, if it's not already there, I think just normalizing parenting and that it can be done in all different environments. And kids, you know, they're packable, you know, I mean, like now we have to take our daughter out of school to bring her on our work trips. So it's a little, we have like guilt about that, but, you know, it's just like they travel, you know, it's not impossible. So being solution oriented, but yeah, definitely. And having the support of your community and your partner is obviously critical.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And come on, let's be real. Nothing against the school system, but she's probably going to learn more on that trip with you and to some incredible destination to go see science firsthand versus sitting in a classroom. So please don't feel guilt about that. That sounds amazing. I would have done anything for that as a little girl, but my parents weren't scientists, just a. Okay, but I would have died for that.
But maybe let's take this up a higher rung. So maybe someone listening that advice meant nothing to them because they had, they're not gonna have children or that's not for many years. So maybe. What is your general advice then, to someone listening of what? Since you've had an amazing career so far, I'm sure you've seen and done a lot. So what is a message that you would like to share with everybody? Know, where no matter where they are.
[00:53:21] Speaker C: In their career, try new things. I think one thing that I found through my work was a lot of things I didn't like, you know, through my explorations. It was like, oh, that didn't work. That was way too, you know, hard for me in whatever way. So you what? I feel like what helped me was just like, going down this path of exploration and hitting a wall and bouncing off and finding the next thing, but not pigeonholing yourself into one thing before you've had the opportunity to explore. And islands are a great way if you're able to get out on them. Enjoy it.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds awesome. I still need to go to more islands. I'm just gonna keep planting the seeds so I can really join you somewhere. But I really haven't been to that many islands. I've been hardcore terrestrial, pretty much even my travels. So I'm in conservation tourism. So even in my travels, I've been to the Galapagos.
[00:54:19] Speaker C: And what about it? How was the Galapagos for you? What was the highlight?
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Oh, it was magic. It was absolute magic. I think just like you said, it blew me away. Having been so many places around the world to be on those islands and the wildlife not be scared of you, that blew me away. There was this adorable. So I was there in April, and one of the islands, one of the first islands I went to, there was this little Nasdaq booby baby, and it was so, like, fluffy and everything, and it found a wing and it was just like throwing this wing up and he's like, let me impress you right now. Mom and dad was off doing something and he didn't care or he or she, I didn't know it's gender, but, yeah, it was just like, oh, let me just show you my acrobatics with this random wing on this island. And it was incredible. And just the frigate birds and everything was flying overhead. As soon as they would see females, they would all call with the big red patches and just all of these behaviors that it was amazing when I'm just excited to just catch a glimpse of something for like a millisecond and I get all super excited and sweaty and awesome to be on these islands where it is thriving with life and all of these different interactions, especially being there during the breeding season. So seeing the mate selection process and why are they choosing what they're choosing and then some islands having babies and other ones that everyone's nesting and then being in the water with the sea lions and they're playing with, you course, seeing my first penguin, that was really cool and so amazing.
[00:55:48] Speaker C: So amazing. I love those. Did you get to, did you get to snorkel with the cormorants as well? Yes.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So I did, I did. They did. Yeah. Actually. Oh, my God, you're right. Right. Who. I'm having a flashback moment. Yeah. So there was this one particular area I wish I knew. I remember the islands that I was at, but the area we were in, I was able to snorkel with sea lions, cormorants and penguins all in the same, like the same moment. And I, like, I just came back to the boat and because the. Some of the people that were on the trip with me, we just got back and we were like, what just happened? That was one of the most amazing experiences of our life. We had sea lion babies and of course, we are the least acrobatic of everything that's in the water. So we just look like.
And they were just there being. Swimming around us. I had a gopro and I have, like, footage of them, of the animals coming right up to my gopro and, like, looking at themselves and it was just, oh, some of the best days of my life. It was phenomenal. Cold water, but all good.
[00:56:49] Speaker C: It is really cold. But I had that exact, say, a similar experience with just having the penguins and the cormorants and then just the way they fly through the water. It's just amazing. And so cool how they've adapted different ways to swim, where the penguins are using their big wings still and then the cormorants are using their feet, but they're just like, zipping.
It's just such a special place.
[00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And then also to see the marine iguanas. Cause I'd only seen them on, like, David Attenborough and BBC, like, how the freak is this lizard doing that? And then to actually watch them do it, it was so cool, them scavenging on the bottom of these rocks and then having, because the water is so cold and having to go back to the islands, the sun themselves, to get back warm and then snotting salt water out of their noses.
Yeah, that was definitely a highlight trip of my life. That was with my last company that, yeah, I was able to go on a site inspection and join a trip, and it was absolutely amazing. And now, since then, I've had three guests on that all were on the galapagos islands specifically and doing completely different things, which is incredible. So I'm like, let's all go back and just have, like, a girl powwow in the Galapagos islands. And how freaking fun would that be? But that's just one destination. There's obviously thousands upon thousands of other islands that I need to go see. But, yeah, just how impacted I was by that one experience. I can only imagine some of the other places you've been with the amazing endemism and yeah, I'm jealous in the best way possible.
Oh, Coral, you're fantastic. And I could feel like I could talk to you for the rest of the day, but I'm sure that people.
[00:58:35] Speaker B: Listening, they might want to go find.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: This paper or maybe read more about your work or follow you and what you're doing. What is the best way for someone to go about that?
[00:58:43] Speaker C: Hmm, good question.
What's her website?
So I think it's islandconservation.org dot.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: I think so.
I'll make sure it's in the show notes.
[00:59:01] Speaker C: So yeah, there's two websites you could definitely check out. There's the joinetheiocc.org that can tell you more about our island Ocean Connection Challenge campaign as well as our organization's website, which is islandconservation.org dot.
[00:59:19] Speaker B: Perfect.
[00:59:19] Speaker A: Awesome. And I'll make sure everything is in the show notes like I always do. So I recommend everybody check out episode 89 as well as this episode and learn all about island restorations and rewilding our islands and all of the different aspects. But Coral, thank you again so much.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: For taking the time to sit down.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: With me and I can't wait to get your episode out.
[00:59:40] Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me. Have a great day.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: I love chatting with people at the forefront of conservation. I'll be sure to check in with Coral in the future to see how her island marine restoration work is going. If you have any question if you have any questions you'd like to ask Coral, head on over to the rewadlogist Facebook group and submit your question on the homepage.
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[01:01:10] Speaker A: Hey, thanks again for listening to this episode of Rewildology. If you like what you heard, hit.
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[01:01:20] Speaker A: Travel story or research that you'd like to share? Let me
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