[00:00:00] Speaker A: The Caribbean's offshore islands are treasures of biodiversity, but centuries of human impact and invasive species have pushed many of these delicate ecosystems to the brink of collapse. So what does it take to bring an entire island ecosystem back from the edge?
Welcome back to rewildology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today we're diving into the world of island restoration with Shauna Challenger, Offshore Islands Conservation Program Coordinator at the Environmental Awareness Group in Antigua and Barbuda. In this conversation, Shana and I explore the fascinating world of island rewilding, from the dramatic transformation of Redonda to the complex challenges of working with inhabited islands. We discuss how EAG tackles everything from invasive species to marine ecosystem protection, the organization's remarkable successes, the areas of rewilding they're currently tackling, and what they hope to accomplish in the future. By the end of this conversation, you'll have a firm grasp on what it takes to rewild, keep wild and protect Caribbean islands before we dive in. If you're loving what you're hearing, hit that subscribe button, leave a rating and review and share this episode with your wildlife loving friends. Every listen helps spread these vital conversations and the good conservation word.
One last note before I let you all go.
While this show has never been for kids, I wanted to give parents a heads up that this episode gets a little spicy.
We'll just say spicy, Shawna and I bring up some adult references that you probably don't want to explain to a little one. So just fair warning. It's awesome, but fair warning.
All right, that is enough for me. Let's journey into the incredible world of Caribbean island restoration with Shawna Challenger and discover how EAG is working to secure a future for these precious island ecosystems.
Oh, we're going to have so much fun, Shauna. We're already laughing with our morning coffee, both of us.
We're hours and hours apart, but we're already. I feel like I'm there with you in your gorgeous Airbnb right now. So thanks for spending your morning with me. I know we are going to have so much fun getting into all of your incredible work in the Caribbean. So I have to ask because all of our stories and our journeys are all so different and how we get to what we are doing, they couldn't be more different half the time. So why did you decide to dedicate your career to island conservation and restoration?
[00:03:15] Speaker B: So growing up in the Caribbean islands, the ecosystems that we have, they're like a part of us as a people. So, for example, Antigua and Barbuda, we have 365 beaches, one for every day of the year. Shameless tourism plug there.
But you know, in our culture, we go to the beach all of the time. You know, the mangroves, we pass them every day.
Everything that we do, of course, the food we eat, the fruits we see, the birds that we see, everything is connected to us. And so as an island gal, we of course are really accustomed and really intertwined really closely with our environment. And so when I grew up, I was always kind of around animals.
My grandmother, she kept ducks and geese and chickens and all of that. And I would have to be feeding them every morning. And mind you, we lived in the middle of town in Barbados, and so we really had no business having all those animals in that area. But I was always around them. I remember one of the times one of the cats, she gave birth to her kittens and I was bawling. I'm like, oh my gosh, life is so beautiful. This is amazing. So I always kind of knew I wanted to be something animal wise or something with the sciences.
Eventually I thought I was going to actually set up a veterinarian. I'll be a veterinarian and have a place called Pets and stuff with my best friend who did end up being a doctor. So, yeah, when I got into secondary school in the Caribbean, our curriculum means that you in ninth grade, you make your decision on whether you're going to be doing sciences or business subjects. You know, the biggest decision of your life literally changed. Literally when you're so young, you're like 14, deciding your life path, right?
And it was of course, the way that the timetable happened, those classes would be happening exactly the same time. So you really had to decide, am I going to be in science, am I going to be in business? And I really love the sciences. So I stayed in the sciences. Stayed in the sciences. And at the time everybody said, you know, okay, if you want to be in the sciences, that means you want to be a doctor or you want to be a teacher. I kind of was like, okay, I guess since I have a knack for this, I'm going to be end up being a doctor.
And, you know, I kept with the sciences. We did our first dissection in biology when we were like in 11th grade. And I definitely had another, had a funeral. I get very emotionally attached to the animals, so I had a little funeral. His name was Archibald, he was a grouper. And you know, we said a few words before we dissected him and pulled out his kidney.
But I really, I just always really, really liked. Like, when I reflect on my life, I realize how often animals were in it and how much I was kind of destined to be on the path that I'm on now. So I started State college again, staying on the sciences, staying on the doctor trail. And then I started the University of the West Indies right here in Barbados. And I loved UE because of the fact that they teach you a little bit of everything in your first year. So I did. I initially started with chemistry and biology, a double major, because, you know, I love pain and sadness. And so I was doing in my first year, you know, they teach you everything. And I remember being in my diversity of Life and Diversity Life, two classes and just hearing about, you know, evolution and the first fish to come out on the land and how everything is connected and birds are the closest relative to dinosaurs. And I remember thinking, this is really, really cool. I love this. And, you know, the more that I finished my schoolwork and continued with the different courses, my mind, my body, everything kept telling me, like, you need to switch to ecology. You need to switch to ecology. This is what you actually enjoy. And I really wanted to do something that I enjoy because, you know, they say that's the secret to never work in a day in your life, right? And so in my second year, like on a random Wednesday afternoon, I went into the office and I changed my major to ecology. I left the pain and suffering in my past and I was going to be doing what I wanted to do because while my other friends were like, okay, I'm in class until 9:00pm I'm like, okay, well, I'm going diving. I'm like, okay, I'm going to the beach. I just loved being outside, outdoors, just in nature. And I really fell in love with a lot of the concepts that I was learning in my courses. However, turns out you can't just change your major on a random Wednesday afternoon when you have a scholarship, which I should have known, but you. I was following my heart.
I'm not thinking with my brain. And so I did end up losing my Board of Education scholarship because, you know, you really shouldn't just change your major like that without telling anybody. Luckily, I wrote a very heartfelt letter about why I decided to change, why it was relevant for Antigua and Barbuda at all. And they did give it back to me, thank God.
And in 2016, I actually graduated with honors in ecology from the University of the West Indies. So before I graduated, my mom was already like, okay, Shauna, you need to look for a job.
Don't waste any time, okay? Courses are finishing and you need to look for a job. And at the time online, I had seen. I was looking, of course, for somewhere in Antigua, because as part of my scholarship, I had to go back there and work. And I was looking at different things online. I had even applied with the government for the Department of Environment. And then online, there was this mysterious thing called Redonda Restoration Program Coordinator. And I made the mistake with my mom of Googling what Redonda looked like. And it was just like a cliff.
One of those things you would see on National Geographic, most desolate places on Earth, you know, one of those. And my mom, she gave me the girl, what you doing? Like, you can't be serious, you know? But I was like, okay, all right.
And this. The environmental awareness group and its partners were advertising for this position.
And what I really liked about it is that it didn't say that, you know, you had to have all these years of experience, you had to do all of this. You just really needed an environmental background to be very willing, be very ambitious, be willing to talk to people, form relationships, collaborations, et cetera. And I was ticking in my head, I was ticking all those boxes. Of course, the imposter syndrome comes up. But because I had been on the guild at university and I had had these little leadership roles before, I was hoping that it would kind of push me over the edge. And so before I graduated, I applied via Skype. That's to tell you how long ago it was, I applied via Skype. And surprise, surprise, they actually said, yes, we would love you. They wanted to hire me. And so on the 1st of August, so I think I finished my courses, like, July 15th or something. And by the 1st of August, I was working. That was my first day of work. And straight out of university, my job was to restore this desolate, dead, dry island to save the species that had somehow been able to still survive there. So that is how I got into this field.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Oh, and yes, before we get back to Redondo, because we're going to spend a lot of time there.
Yeah. Because that story is absolutely incredible, and it's very rare that we have the opportunity to talk to somebody who did the groundwork. So we will definitely get there, but could you maybe give us a little bit of a history lesson? So for those of us that maybe have not been to the Caribbean, don't exactly know much about what these islands have faced what are some of the biggest conservation issues or threats that, you know, the islands have faced? The ecology, biodiversity, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So maybe set the stage for why your work is so important. Why Eag's work is so important.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Yes. So the Caribbean, we are a biodiversity hotspot, Right. So we only take up, like, about 0.1% or something super small of the land area of the entire planet, but yet still within that area, we have extremely high levels of endemism, meaning species that can be found nowhere else in the planet but there. You have to come to the Caribbean to be able to see them. And so these species, they've been able to, of course, they've been there for long enough that they have adapted and evolved into their very own unique species. And in the Caribbean, despite all of this endemism, we've also lost about 65% of our reptiles, 70% of our birds. Like, there's been a high numbers of loss in the area. Of course, most of this has been contributed to invasive mammalian predators.
So if we go back to slavery times. Yes, I know everybody says everything is connected to slavery, but it really does start there. When the islands were being colonized, of course, rats and rats were able to stow away and mice in these little, small, little areas on the slave ships. And one of the things that happened, of course, once they got here is that they would decimate all of the cash crops. So sugar, cotton, all of that. And so someone had the bright idea, based on what they had seen in India and stuff, let's bring some mongooses over to deal with the rats, since they're natural predators over there. It must work over here. So I believe the first set of mongooses were introduced into Jamaica.
And from that, you know, it kind of like, oh, they're doing it. Let us do it, let us do it. And so you had these mongooses that are diurnal, meaning that they come out in the day. You have these rats that are nocturnal, which come out in the night. And so they never ended up actually meeting up with each other to be able to cancel each other out. And instead they decided, hey, let's tag team, and gang up on all of the native wildlife that is there. So in Antigua, for example, we used to have boas, we had owls, we had parrots, we had parakeets. All of those wiped out and are now extinct because of the pressure from these predators.
We also, of course, had the cane toad. There's several species that have either hitchhiked or been intentionally introduced into the Caribbean that have ended up causing severe issues. Another big one we have to deal with is the giant African snail, which is really affecting our crops and agriculture in the Caribbean. A really big one. Especially now I'm here in Barbados for vacation. The green monkey, very big issue in the Caribbean, especially here in Barbados and in St. Kitts and in Antigua, sadly, we have a herd of maybe 100 or so that have been identified. And again, with monkeys, they will not only eat the fruits, they're also going to eat the bird eggs, they'll eat chicken, they'll eat anything, right? And so sadly, in the Caribbean, there's usually.
It's usually more laid back or responsive as opposed to proactive approach where it's like, okay, let's wait until this is causing a big issue to start to intervene. And of course, as scientists, we know by the time you do that, it's like too late. The population is already established and everything has gone to potatoes. So the invasives is one big one that, like, started everything getting bad. Of course, habitat loss is another big one. Everybody in the Caribbean wants their beachfront hotel, right? Everybody wants their beachfront development. And that means that the mangroves, the ecosystems that are around the coast, they are going to be negatively impacted because of this demand for these developments.
So in Antigua, for example, we've lost about 70% of the mangroves that we used to have.
Our mangroves used to take up 11% of the country. Now that is down significantly to maybe 6 or 5%. So it's a continuous thing that is happening. I know some of the Caribbean countries, they hardly have any mangroves anymore because by the time they realize, hey, these ecosystems are really important for, like, defending us against storms, for habitat, for birds and fish, by the time they realize all of that, they'd already cut them down. And mangroves are, like, notoriously picky. They don't, like, they don't just grow anywhere. They have to have like a specific salinity, specific sunlight, specific sediment. Like, they're very fussy. And so even if you want to replant them, it's not like 100% success rate at all. So those are the big two, like I said, the habitat loss and the invasive mammalian predators. Of course, climate change, as we all know, is a big one.
This year has been breaking all of the records for hurricanes and storms. I think I just saw there's another one, Patty. Like, we are getting to the point where even the Alphabet, the names that we have, we're almost to the end.
So for Us in the Caribbean, of course, we have nowhere to go when these storms hit. And I think sometimes the bigger countries take that for granted. For example, when Milton hit, the us people were able to evacuate and leave Florida if they wanted to. When we are here in the Caribbean and the storms hit, all we can do is hunker down. That's it, you know? And so there is that kind of thing of like, okay, as these storms get stronger, where are we gonna go? What are we gonna do? You know, who's gonna take us? Like, it's the point where we are. In my lifetime, we're probably gonna end up being climate refugees, right? Which country is going to accept all the Caribbean people that are gonna be displaced? And so for us underwater, of course, we're seeing 86, 87 degrees, so our corals are dying. We recently had an urchin die off this year as well.
Even some of the wildlife, because of the droughts or snakes or lizards, they're being affected, or birds, of course. And so I would say those three are probably, like, the biggest ones.
And again, this last one, which I think is another reason that contributes to these, is an apathy towards some of our ecosystems. Again, like mangroves especially, they're kind of seen as just like, okay, there's mosquitoes there, there's sandflies, they're kind of stinky, they get a bit of a bad rep. And so people end up, of course, illegally dumping and cutting them down for whatever. And so there is kind of that lack of appreciation for these ecosystems still to this day. And that's why a lot of my work actually goes into raising awareness about them and getting people to really value nature and our ecosystems here in the Caribbean.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Wow, you're facing a lot.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: It is a lot.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. That's why sometimes I'm surprised we're not all alcoholics for everything we have to deal with and trying to accomplish and keep our heads straight and just not get overly emotional about things. But one thing that I love about your story is you have done the work. Like, you have things, you know, you could put your hat on. Like, this was a success. Like, I rewilded these islands. So let's go to Redonda and your first big project and rewilded it, so. Rewilding it. So how did you go about rewilding this island? You just graduated with an ecology degree, ready to go. But this is like, your first big, big project. I mean, I can only imagine being in your shoes, I would have been so scared. So what were the major issues that Redonda specifically faced. And then how did you go about addressing them and fixing them?
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no problem. So, yes, Redonda is actually the third island of Antigua and Barbuda. So let's start off with a little bit of history. So there's Antigua, Barbuda, and then there's Redonda, which we call like the forgotten sister. Because even when I was growing up, like, you would hear about Redonda, but you wouldn't really, you wouldn't really know if it was really a thing or just something people used to talk about. I've even heard about the fact that there were goats over there. Then I heard that there were rats over there. Then I heard they were like half human, half goats over there. Like, there was a lot of lore surrounding Redondant have good half human, you know, mutants over there. The regular Antiguan and Barbudan did not really know what was going on over there. There. A big part of it is because Redonda is super far away from Antigua and Barbuda. It's actually like 35 miles away, which is like a 20 minute helicopter ride for us. And so technically it's actually closer to Montserrat and Nevis, which are two other small. So for just for context, you have the big islands at the top of the Caribbean which are like Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, et cetera. Then you have the smaller ones on the right, and Antigua is kind of like in the middle and we're like the bigger one of the smaller islands around us. Right. And so Redonda, it was, the name itself, of course, means round in Spanish. Right? But when our, when our partners rediscovered Redonda in 2012, you know, on a helicopter ride, just going across, they realize, huh, Redonda is crumbling into the sea. Like it's, it's looking dead. It's, it's completely awful. What happened over here, what's going on? And so that our partners were able to get together and decide, hey, we need to come up with a project that can address whatever is going on on Redondan. So what they did, they did a feasibility study to see, you know, could you even get rid of what is causing the issues on Redondo, which we'll get into in just a second. And two, they had to raise all of the money that it was going to take to be able to restore this island. Conservation, rewilding in general, it's not cheap, as many of us know. It is not cheap. And the money is not. You got to work for the money that they do give. And so that was how the Redonda restoration program actually started. And then I came in in 2016, once they had found the funding and gotten the support from the partners. So Redonda is only about a mile long. It rises to about 396 meters or so. And it is formally, it is actually a volcanic. It is made out of volcanic action. So in Antigua and Barbuda, we're completely limestone. So Redonda, again, is like the black sheep. She's like. Or, you know, the rebellious sister. That's like super emo, super goth. So even when we go diving around her, the sand is like black because of the volcanic core and stuff. And so it's very different to anything we have in Antigua and Barbuda. So Redonda was actually formally a mine.
The island had in the 1800s, they described it as numberless seabirds. Like you could not walk and not walk on a seabird. That was how many seabirds there were. And because of all of these seabirds, this was, of course, they eat and they poop. And at the time, seabed bird guano, or poop, was gold. And it was actually used to as an ammunition in the World War. So people were getting sadly blown up with bird poop from Redonda, which I think is just crazy. Crazy how things are connected.
But so people were using it for ammunition. It was also used as fertilizer as well. And this American mining company, it actually employed a bunch of Montserratians and British persons who lived, about 100 of them lived on Redonda for. During that mining period. And the mining, of course, is very extractive. Right. And so they did kind of change the topography of Redonda quite significantly to be able to get the guano. They also had built like a tram line. And actually you can see the remnants of the line on Redonda to this day. The island, it has really, really steep cliffs. So they had even put together like a pulley so that they were able to get up from the ships. So on this island, while they're there, I should also say there's ruins that are still there to this day of how they lived. And so there's ovens. There's like a area where a blacksmith was. There's the basement of the manager's house, which has a chimney. I don't know why you would need a chimney in the Caribbean. Cause it doesn't get that cold. But, you know, there's also. We've also heard that there was a grand piano over there at one time. Cause, you know, they needed entertainment.
That was their ipod of the day.
Sorry to whoever had to Hoist a freaking grand piano of Redondant.
Sorry to them. And they're back. But they had to have entertainment, right? So you can see a lot of those ruins and there is a thought. So there's two thoughts about what exactly happened and how the invasive mammals were introduced to Redonda. So one with the rats. Like I said, rats can stow away in really tiny places. A fun fact. Oh, I should say by the end of this podcast, the persons listening are going to be rat experts. Okay, Ratsperts. So just know that you're going to find out a lot of fun facts about rats that you did not know. So a rat can. A black rat, specifically, I'm talking about Rattus rattus rattus. They are able to swim for about an hour before they get tired. And when I tell this in Antigua, they're always shocked because even though we're island people, a lot of Antiguans can't swim. So to find out that a rat is capable of swimming better than them is always a big shock. But yeah, rats can swim for about an hour before they get tired. And not just like pitter pattering on the surface. They can dive, all of that. And so when the boats were passing, we think, of course, you know, and docking, of course, a rat sniffed all of that birdy goodness and said, oh, my meal is over there. I gots to get over there, climbed over on the ropes or swam over and got established on the island.
And then when it comes to the goats, there was also a herd of about 50 goats that we found on the island. And we're in between two places with where these goats were introduced. So one, they could have come with the miners who just, you know, left them there. When they're leaving, of course, they're not going to run off, run over the cliff to try and catch a goat to take it with them. But also, when Christopher Columbus was sailing and him and the other sailors, sometimes they would leave livestock on uninhabited islands just in case they got shipwrecked or anything like that and they needed food. And so, you know, they intentionally again, introduced like pigs, goats, sheep, et cetera. So they would have some meat kind, as we would call it in Antigua, or protein whenever if they ever got, if they ever washed upon that shore and needed something to eat. So we have actually done some genetic testing on the goats and they are of Spanish origin, so maybe. Yeah, so we traced them to Spain and they also had a little bit of Cuba in them. Cause these goats, when you see them, they have like these huge horns and they're very unlike any goats that we have in Antigua, for sure. So we knew they were genetically distinct, but it was really cool to find out that they actually were traced to Spain and Cuba. So, yes, the miners came, the miners left, and the rats and the goats were able to take over the island. So Redondo, like I mentioned, is really, really small. It's only about a mile long. And on this island, we had 6,000 rats. Wow, 6,000. And I know the scientists are going to be like, well, how did y'all come up with that number? Where did that number come from? So what we did, like I said, we did a feasibility study before the project actually began, and you set out a number of different types of methods to kind of come up with this estimate. So the first thing you do is put out rat traps, and you set them, set 100 of them up in the morning and 100 in the evening, and it kind of comes up with amounts of trap days, 100 trap days that you're able to get. And sometimes when they would. By the time they would finish setting one trap, you would hear them going off in the back, back, back, back, back, because the rats were so hungry, they were so ravenous. And by the time they would walk back, only pieces of the rats would be left because their fellow brother or sister came along and realized, oh, there's free food here with my fallen brother. Let me just leave it. So they would only have pieces of the rats left back, sadly. Wow. Yeah. And so another thing, of course, that they did any rats that did die, capture them, dissect them, the dissection coming back in again, dissecting them and checking, of course, their reproductive status, if they had been consuming the bait, that kind of thing. And so there's the 6,000 rats that weren't just on the top of Redonda, they were on the cliffs. They were all over also. They also came out in the day. So these rats were not. I mean, there's no humans over there. They're just able to run freely. Right. And then the goats. So there's no water on Redonda, there's no ponds, no nothing. It's literally just the rock. And so the goats sometimes, like, if there was, like, a good rain, like, a little invasive clam would grow up and they would be able to eat that. But other than that, the goats were actually really starving to death. And so the eag, I haven't even said about who I work with. Pause for a cause. So I work with the Environmental Awareness Group or the eag which is Antigua and Barbuda's oldest environmental non government organization. And for over 30 years we've been working for the benefit of people and wildlife. Core to our work is that, you know, environmental work, it should be satisfying, it should be worthwhile, it should also have a hint of adventure. Like we always believe that our work shouldn't just be boring, we should always find some sort of excitement in it. And so the ehe, as the oldest environmental ngo, was of course a major partner and the major implementer of this project, with support from Fauna and Flora, the British Mountaineering Council and several other partners who we will list in the description so that I don't forget anybody.
So, yes, we had the rats, like I said, and we had the goats that were basically dying out. And we realized that we couldn't just leave Redonda as it was. Something that I haven't mentioned is that somehow on this desolate island that had no trees, had known nothing but goats and rats, there was still wildlife thriving there. And this is the fact that they were still able to thrive over there is always what blows my mind, because not only did we have seabirds, so redonda actually has 1% of the global population of brown boobies. And brown boobies is the bird, not the other brown boobies.
And so we have 1%.
I get that one a lot.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: I'm sure you do.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: So we have. We'll put them up on the screen so that we can see. They can see what we're talking about. But we have 1% of the global population of brown boobies. We also have red footed boobies breeding over there. And mass boobies. Our national bird, the magnificent frigate bird, can also be found over there, as well as red billed tropic birds. You can tell I'm very into birds just from how I'm talking.
But we also, on this island, Brooklyn, somehow we're able to have not one, not two, but three critically endangered endemic reptiles that can be found nowhere else on the planet except for Redonda. So we have the Redonda ground dragon, who it's completely black, it sparkles in the sun. It gives very Edward Cullen in twilight, Very, very like sparkly in the sun. Beautiful vibes. I know I'm beautiful.
And then they have these little blue flecks on their tummy and these ground dragons, of course, because it's volcanic in nature, like I said, they're black.
And the other species we have is the Redonda Anola, the Redonda tree lizard. And you can imagine what it's like being a tree Lizard on an island that ain't got no damn trees. So the tree lizards, we actually ended up calling them the rock lizards, because you would just kind of see them hopping from rock to rock. I actually felt the worst for them because at least the grown lizards, you have your habitat. Me as a tree lizard, because on Redonda at the time, there were literally two trees, one on the south end, one at the north end. That was all that had been able to survive.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:35:33] Speaker B: That was all that we had been able to. Had been able to survive. And so we felt really bad for the tree lizards. And they're pretty cool as well. The males have, like a hump on their back and a bright yellow eye. The females, sadly, she's a little bit more drab than the male, but they.
And we'll talk about how they're doing now in a bit. But they always stuck out to me because, wow, y'all really have no habitat. And then thirdly, we have a species that is so new to science that it still doesn't even have a scientific name, and that's the Redonda pygmy gecko, which was discovered in 2009, actually. Oh, wow. It's Spherodactylus, the species. And so, yeah, it's still going, undergoing genetic testing, so it can get its full scientific name. But those are the three species of lizards that are unique to Redonda that had somehow been able to persevere despite the pressures of the rats, despite the pressures of the goats, and were able to be found on this island. And so the EAG has done a lot of island restoration work since 1995. And when it came to this island, of course, this was like, the hardest thing we had ever done. And of course, by my luck, I was the one who is going to be leading this hard effort. But my last name is Challenger. And so I was ready for the challenge. And the EAG we wanted to see, like, could we replicate our previous rewilding work? Could we restore this island from nothing into something? And I remember when I saw Redonda for the first time, I was like, well, on the plus side, I can't make this possibly worse. Like, this is the only way we can go is up. I was like, even if it doesn't happen right now, nothing can be worse than this, right? So either way, I'm having a positive outcome. And that was what I kind of told myself the first time I saw redundant, what it looked like.
So, yeah, that was how we started in 2016. And the first thing we had to do was get rid of the goats. And so as conservationists, if an invasive is causing an issue, you know, we remove it, we eradicate it. But in the Caribbean, okay, oh, y'all are going to be rat experts and Caribbean experts. So in the Caribbean, we are very goat sensitive people. We eat a lot of goat. So you will have like a curry goat. You'll have, like, stewed goat, you'll have a goat roti.
You just have goat in anything. Actually, one of our national dishes in Antigua is actually goat water, which sounds unappetizing, but it's actually quite delicious. It's like a thick, hearty stew made out of goat with goat meat that we dip bread into and stuff. And so the government of Antigua and Barbuda, when this Redonda project was presented to them, they literally said, if y'all kill any of those goats, we're not supporting you.
So the cost of the project went up significantly because we had to now relocate the goats to Antigua. It's an extraction mission now. Yeah, because, you know, it would have just been a few guns and be finished, but now we have to catch the goats, bring them over.
How are we going to do that? So in 2012, they had gotten.
What's his position call? They had gotten an expert to do a goat relocation operational manual. And there were so many things in this manual, Brooke. And I was actually quite excited when I was reading it, I'm not going to lie, because again, I'm seeing all these concepts I learned in school, demonstrated it in real life. So one of the things I remember thinking about that was cool. They had a concept for like, a Judas goat. So you would tag one goat and then send him, and he would betray. He would betray the herd, like Judas did with Jesus, and let us know where he was, where the rest of them were. And the. But the method that we ended up going with was to create this oasis on Redonda, which I thought sounded so good.
I'm like, yes, this is going to be like an oasis in the desert. So we got this. We made a goat corral, basically, and we put shade in there, we put water in there. They had a nice little trough. We had food in there. I'm looking at this place, like, okay, it's giving like the Hilton five star, you know. I felt very pleased with our little oasis. I was like, yeah, if I was a goat, this is exactly where I would want to be. And to get with the corral, we had spare gates that would allow the goats to push and come in, but would not allow them to get Out. So that was how we were going to think.
Listeners and watchers. The goats completely ignored my oasis. They did not at all look at it. They were completely unimpressed. They.
They didn't even come anywhere near it. In fact, I think they were actively avoiding my oasis. And I felt very heartbroken because I was so pleased with what we had been able to do because we had worked along with the veterinary and livestock division, and it was really nice. Okay, so my project starts in August, and from September to December, we catch zero goats.
Zero, not zero. Zero goats. And it's getting to the point where we're paying people to be over there, right, and pay for their food and paying for the helicopters and all that. And it's getting to the point where it's like, okay, so when are we going to, like, start catching the goats? Like, but. And this is how I actually found out. Feral animals are extremely, extremely intelligent because we actually started doing a bunch of different methods. We even tried snares where you have, like, a little out of metal, little noose so that it would catch their foot so that they would just jump over them or kick them out of the way. They were completely unimpressed with anything that we did. And then finally, when we were about to call off the thing because it was getting close to Christmas time, we caught one goat on the other side of the island. So poor Pete Harrison, he was our goat relocation expert. Poor Pete had to fricking hike Redonda with a goat in his hand. Oh, my God, I can't imagine. I actually. I think I have the clip. Hopefully I have it so I can share it. But it was just completely crazy. But we were so excited, like, oh, my God, we have a goat. We have a goat. And we named him Juan because he was the only Juan that we were able to catch. So Juan, he ended up being our favorite, just because, you know, we were just so excited when we finally got Juan. And we actually didn't end up catching any more goats until March the following year in 2017, when we started the rat eradication. So with rats again, we're becoming rat spurts. With rats, you try to do an eradication at the driest part of the year, like when they're the most hungry, most likely to be eating the bait, all of that. And so usually on the offshore islands that we worked on previously, there's, like, forest and stuff, and you have to cut trails, but because Redonda was so desolate and had nothing that actually removed that step from our process. And so as soon as we got onto the island, we were able to start baiting. So our team, the rat team, it consisted of volunteers from New Zealand, from Ireland, from the uk with a couple of antigens interspersed, and they spent two months on Redonda. And this is an island with no electricity, no running water, no barely any signal, no wifi, no nothing.
No shade, some breeze and some beautiful views and of course, the lovely wildlife, but nothing else. And so for two months, the rat team was deployed on Redonda. And our goal, of course, was to make sure that every single rat had a chance to encounter the bait and, you know, subsequently ate it and would die. And so with the rat team, we were kind of separated into the ground team, who we were just like on the surface, normal, normal stuff. We're still near cliffs, but, you know, normal, flat stuff. And then we had the abseilors from the British Mountaineering Council, who were, you know, on the cliffs, slingshotting, you know, very stuff you would see in a movie, that kind of thing. And so there were 12 of us on the island at the time. And that allowed, of course, us to spread out over the island, basically have eyes and ears on the island at the time, all the time. And so we came up with the idea, my oasis is still there, by the way, still being ignored, but it's still there. And so we came up with the idea, what if we were able to capture some of the kids? Because the kids were in a very easy place for us to get. So we caught the kids and put them in the corral. And after you put the kids in the corral, guess who comes next? The moms, the women, so they have to come and look for their kids, which they did. And then we finally got some action going on in my oasis. And then once the children and the women are there, guess who's coming back? Guess who's coming. The men. Yes. All species are the same.
Once you got women there, children, maybe, but once there's women there, the men are coming. Right. So that was when we were finally able to capture, hand, capture the goats by doing that method. And we, A lot of people think sometimes that we had like a big thing under the helicopter and it was swinging. Very Mission Impossible. No, we actually every. So every goat that we brought over, we would brush them off to make sure they weren't bringing any seeds or anything. Then we would kind of hog tie them just so they couldn't, of course, move on the helicopter. Then we would cover their eyes as well, you know, to keep them calm, not let them get nervous. Or anything. And then we would put them in a bag because, of course, we're on a helicopter and we don't want them pooping in there. So with one, I forgot to say with Juan, I had taken him onto the helicopter. So they sit in the helicopter, like in our laps right there. And it's a 20 minute ride, like I said. And so, you know, about halfway through the trip, I kind of, you know, relaxed, ever so gently, just, you know, to get a little comfortable in my seat. And Juan lifts back his head and is ready to break the helicopter glass with his fricking horn. Luckily, I was still on it. And then I was like, oh, gosh, we're going to need something for these horns. So we ended up getting pool noodles. And so the goat ended up looking very crazy by the end of it. So you have the pool noodles on their horns, their face covered up with a hood made out of yoga pants, by the way. So shout out to our volunteers who made these little goat hoods for us. So their faces are covered up, the noodles on their head, they're hog tied and they're in a bag. So they looked crazy. Visual is amazing, right? They looked crazy. I think I have a photo that we could insert. I need to see a photo for.
They just looked crazy. Not a very fashionable moment for them. I would say the most goats we ever had at one time in the helicopter was maybe five or six, like, including babies. Like babies we could just fit in little buckets. And we did end up naming the goats. I tend to name a lot of the animals that I interact with, as you probably can tell. And so I think it's kind of an indicator of our mental state at the time, being on the island for so long, because it was like salt and pepper.
We had noodle, sriracha. Like, we had all of these little names for the goats. And, yeah, because of that, I actually don't eat goat anymore. I haven't eaten goat since 2017 just because I felt I got too close to them and, you know, holding them and everything. I just. I couldn't be, like, devouring goat water the next day, like, no, no, no, no, no. So I. I completely came off of goat and that's that. So now I want to quickly talk about the rats.
So the first time I had ever gone camping was on Redondo.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: That's an extreme first go about it.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: Yes. You know the last name challenger, right? The challenge. Here we go, another challenge. So that was my first time ever camping ever. And it's on this Remote island in the middle of nowhere that is covered with rats.
So my first night, okay, you know, I set up my tent for the first time, and, you know, I get into the tent and my first night, I actually don't sleep because there are rats climbing over my head all night. We also had, like, the snap traps around the camp because, of course, we have food and stuff. And in the middle of the night, you could hear them going off, like, bam, bam, bam. So as if it wasn't enough that they're on top of me, they're also all around me, and I'm just like, wow, this is my life. Like, you know. You know those moments where you're reflecting, like, this is what I chose for myself.
[00:50:23] Speaker A: This is.
[00:50:25] Speaker B: This is what my life is right now. So, you know, the rats are all over my head all night. Okay. The next day, we wake up and our eradication leader, she is an icon. Her name is Biz Bell. She's from New Zealand, and she's done rewilding and rest island restorations all over the world, especially here in the Caribbean. And she's like, well, guys, this morning we need to make sure that everybody is able to get down to the base of the island just in case the helicopter is not able to land, in case Montserrat's volcano blew up, or just in case of emergency. So, Brooke, on my second day, day two. So day one, rats crawling over my head all night. Day two, climbing down the side of Redonda.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:51:18] Speaker B: It took.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Talk about a crash course.
[00:51:20] Speaker B: Listen, it took hours to get down, of course. The abseils are down in, like, eight minutes. We used to just call them the goats. We just call them the mountain goats because they got down in, like, eight minutes. And they're down there snorkeling with the turtles, having a lovely time. I think some humpback whales had even passed that day. Meanwhile, the rest of us, the ground team, we're like, inching, inching, because, of course, the issue with Redonda at that time and why the rats and goats were so good. Rats, of course, will eat anything, right? So they would attack the birds, attack the lizards, attack the seeds, anything they'll eat. And goats, unlike sheep or cattle, they rip out from the root, so there's no roots to help stabilize the soil. So everything was just literally falling into the sea. So even the coral reefs around the island were being negatively impacted as well. So we have, while we're coming down the island, like your foot is giving away, your hand is giving away. Everything is loose you're looking down, and I'm thinking to myself, if my mother was able to see what the hell I'm doing right now, she would probably pass out. I feel like I'm about to pass out myself, because I just couldn't believe I'm here on this cliff. When I got down to the bottom and I was able to swim with the turtles, it was quite nice. But then we were there for maybe an hour, and it was like, well, guys, we're gonna have to go back up now because it's gonna take some time. I'm like, right, I have to climb back up again.
But that was an experience when I got up. As I'm walking back to camp, something interesting. Or is this interesting? Something catches my eye. So, like I mentioned, we have all of these nesting seabirds on the island. And I remember specifically, it was a masked booby. And the brown boobies are a little bit more flighty. Like, as soon as you get close to them, they're going to leave. But the masked boobies, they're like, that's my kid. I ain't leaving her. I'm a stick beside her. They will stay and stay and stay on the nest. And so I see also the glimmer of my eye. I realize there's a booby. And then I see a rat again. They come out in the middle of the day and actually see. I realize it's two rats and one of the rats. I realize they're working together. And one of the rats goes in front of the mom masked booby and starts to distract her. So she's like, of course, moving forward, like, hey, leave me alone. Don't do this, don't do that. Meanwhile, the other one. So I'm calling the rats Bunny and Clyde. So meanwhile, Clyde in the back is rolling one of the eggs out from underneath the mom. I'm looking at this. Like, am I actually seeing this? So Bonnie is still in the front. Distraction, distraction, distraction. Clyde has rolled the egg out, and not only has he rolled it out, he's now rolled it down the hill till it hit into another rock and cracked.
I'm like, oh, these rats are smart. These rats are really intelligent, and they're even more intelligent. So once the rock. Cause and clearly they had done it before because it hit it exactly at the angle that it would crack. And once it cracked, of course, they don't want any egg white. They only want the yolk, right? And so it literally, you see it going specifically for the yolk. And then Bonnie comes, and the two of them were having a little romantic egg dinner. And I remember just being so in shock because, you know, as conservationists, it's like you can't intervene per se, because this is the thing that has been happening that you are now doing your intervention to fix.
And it was just so crazy to me to see feral animals working in unison like that. Feral animals coming up. Knowing the fact that, hey, you destruct and I roll, you break this and we eat the most nutritious parts of this egg. Like, it was just amazing to me. I never knew that rats were so intelligent. And that's one of the things that we realized on Redonda. The birds were always breeding. And we think it is because of the impacts of the rats, because if you have, if, you know, you lay two eggs and every time at least one of them is getting killed or both of them are getting killed, you're going to have an extended breeding season to be able to over to compensate for that loss. And so it was really crazy seeing that in real Life. That was 2017 and we have not seen any.
Let me look for wood. Yes. We still have not seen any rat science since March 2017. Literally, the rat population collapsed in like two weeks. They were that hungry. So what we would do, we would get like a regular, like a plastic water bottle and you cut off the ants and you wire bait into it so it creates like a little tunnel where the rats can eat. And the bait, it's only about like this size, it's like a block. It's Clarat that we use and it's donated by Syngenta. Thank you. To them. And the bait, it's like bright blue, it's waxy. So you're able to very clearly see like wrapped teeth marks on the bait. And it actually kills them in like three days. So it's not like instantaneous. So they can keep eating, eating, eating. And it actually kills them by internal bleeding. It's an anti. It has brodifercum in it and an anticoagulant. And so they're able to eat, gorge themselves. We actually have a little video of them actually lining up to be able to eat this delicious bait.
And so within, yeah, two weeks we were able to see the populations going down because every morning and every evening we would check each one of these stations. We had definitely over a thousand stations in total on the island because you do it every 30 meters. So on and on. If again, we're thinking like a rat. So as a rat within 30 meters, I'm going to have everything so I'm going to have my house, I'm going to have my church, I'm going to have my supermarket, I'm going to have my gym.
My side girl, her house is also there.
My baby mama, her house is also over there. Like, everything is in this 30 meters, right? So we wanted to make sure again, that every rat had a chance to encounter the bait. So we just covered the island in it. And I know somebody's gonna ask whether the bait affected any of the other species that were there. The goats, as we can tell, are unimpressed with anything. So the goats, one time we literally just put a block right there. The goats just walked away. So they were not interested in it at all. And the bait, it actually only affects mammals and so. Cause it attacks our circulatory system. And so the other species that were there, like, sometimes the lizard would try and scratch at it. What really would eat it would be the hermit crabs. But because they're inverts, it doesn't do anything to them at all.
But, yeah, we did it. And the rats, we. When we would collect them. So any carcass that we found on this surface, because most of them died on the ground, but any carcass we found on the surface, we took it back to. And I was able to use my dissection skills. This was low key. My favorite part of it, just dissecting them and just, you know, being able to see. So, for example, their stomach would be filled up with the bright blue dye from the bait. You would also see like, bruising on their intestinal lining and stuff like that to show that it was internal bleeding and not, you know, something else that was killing them. We just needed to make sure. And one of the things that we realized was that it was so important that we had done interviewed when we did, because 90% of the females that we had caught were either pregnant, nursing, or about to go into heat.
Again, what I said, so there's about.
[00:59:49] Speaker A: To be a big boom.
[00:59:50] Speaker B: They can just go, go, go, go, go. And the males, the size of their testes and the baldness of them.
I don't know what it is about Redonda, but the rats were loving it over there. Yes, it was literally like so great that we had hit in when we did, because if not, the population would have just continued to boom. So again, we would cover the island in the morning, in the evening, the abseil is on the side in the really, really difficult and unsafe places. We even ended up doing helicopter drops as well, because we really needed to make sure that no rat was going to be remaining because that would just start everything back up again. And so once the island, once we stopped seeing signs, we also put out a different kind of bait. So if there was a rat like me. So like me, I don't like the drumstick of the chicken. I think it's the worst part of the chicken. People might disagree, but it's just bone and not enough meat. So.
So in case there was a rat that's like, oh, I don't like blue and waxy, we put out another type of bait that was like red and grainy. You know, if they're like a texture eater or something. Just making sure that no matter what was there, had a chance to encounter the bait. Once we had finished with the bait, then we go into the monitoring phase where we're just making sure that there is nothing left. And we start putting out, like, flavored wax, like chocolate wax, peanut wax, aniseed flavored, and, you know, again, checking to see if we see anything. And we did not see any signs. Thank you, Jesus. So since once that was finished, we then put in some permanent bait stations, 39 of them. So these boxes are there and we check them every three months. And in there, it's kind of like a wrap motel.
So before I had my Goat Oasis, now I have my rat motel. So it has, again, food in there. It has a little space that they want to, you know, set up their little home, that kind of thing. And we check these stations every three months to make sure that there's nothing, no invasives have been able to get back to Redonda. So, yeah, we're very excited with the fact that it has been able to remain rat free. And last year, in August 2023, we actually were able to declare Redonda and its surrounding seas as a protected area.
[01:02:23] Speaker A: So exciting.
[01:02:26] Speaker B: Dubbed the Redonda Ecosystem Reserve. So the island is actually the smallest part of the reserve because it is actually almost 30,000 hectares. So the protected area is about the size of Antigua, which is very easy to think about. Yeah, it's huge. So it's mostly a marine protected area, but focused on the land. And so we have the land protected. Around the land, we have like a biosecurity buffer zone where we're just making sure everything is staying good. And then outside of that is just us, you know, keeping it safe and working with the coast guard, et cetera, to be able to maintain this area. So that is the latest with the Redonda Ecosystem Reserve.
An issue we have had is the spread of Giddy grass, which is a notorious invasive, and it also spontaneously combusts, which you can imagine would be something terrible to happen on Redonda. So we are currently monitoring and managing that. But since the. Lastly, Brook. Sorry, I know I've been rambling a little bit.
[01:03:31] Speaker A: No, no, this is. You're on the ground. This is great.
[01:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. But lastly, I want to talk a little bit about the. What we've seen since we were able to remove the rats and the goats. Yes, please. So literally, Redondo was like, okay, thank you, humans. I've got it from here. And 2017, that was a year where we had a lot of hurricanes. So that was. There was a lot of rain that happened. So I have to, you know, give the rain its due. But by November, so we eradicated the rats in March. By November, the island was covered in green.
Wow. And it was so shocking. I mean, you know, we're like bawling. Well, me, I'm bawling, right? Seeing Redonda, actually, because, remember, I said to myself, well, it can't possibly get worse, but I didn't think it would be so dramatic and so quick, the recovery that we were able to see. So plant wise, before, like, 17 species had been recorded on Redonda. After the eradication, we had up to 88 species being recorded, including, like, now there's, like, trees that are almost as tall as me, which is crazy. Like, the first time we had a little sapling coming, we're like, oh, my God, we have a tree. We're just so excited seeing this island rebound and recover. One of the major species we have over there is the bearded fig, Ficus citrufolia. That's like the one that we see the most, but we're seeing other species of ficus coming up. Of course, we have a lot of cacti. Oh, I didn't even mention this. On Redonda as well, what had been able to survive was the jumping cacti. Have you heard of the jumping cacti, bro?
[01:05:13] Speaker A: No.
[01:05:14] Speaker B: Okay, so this lovely cactus, it's an Opuntia species. It's triggered by movement. This person is triggered by movement. So as you pass by, it shoots out the spines into you.
[01:05:36] Speaker A: And so, yes, I actually encountered some of those in Baja, Mexico. Now that you bring that up, I was like, everything wants to kill you here. What the hell?
[01:05:45] Speaker B: Everything is spiky and painful. So that was one of the species that was still surviving. Another fun thing that we actually saw that popped up was tobacco. So we assumed that the miners, you know, they're over there they want to have a little something to smoke and everything seems to have just been in the seed bank, just waiting for an opportunity to be relieved from the predation pressure so that they could actually survive and thrive. And so we went from 17 species of plants to 88 with regards to the tree lizard. Their population boomed. It literally went by, multiplied by six, increased six fold. It was crazy. Tree lizards up the wazoo, it was crazy. The ground dragons increased three times and even the geckos increased twice. So we literally saw the lizards as well because of course they have more space, they have more food, they don't have as much predation pressure. They were able to increase. And actually I ended up doing my dissertation on the vegetation mediated recovery of these lizards in response to the removal of the invasive mammals. So it was really cool to literally see everything rebound bird wise.
The frigate birds and the red footed boobies, who were the tree nesting species, of course, their range has expanded since we, they now have multiple trees to choose from. So I don't have to be, we don't all have to be cropped up here. We can all spread out. And what has really been encouraging to me has been the natural recolonization with land birds. So we've had, so we have a peregrine falcon pair that comes religiously every year. We've had bullfinches and banana quits and these little fruit birds, fruit, fruit eating birds that you would not think a yellow warbler. We've had these birds find redundant. I even had a green throated carim hummingbird. I'm like, baby, what are you doing here? There's no flowers. Like great that you found us. Welcome. But it's a little too early. So it's been so encouraging to see that the species flying by are like, okay, let me stop off on Redonda. And hey, you know what, I actually like it here. And we're starting to see some of these species become resident and not just migratory. So yeah, seeing Redonda come back, it really has shown that nature truly can heal if it gets a little bit of help. It shows the power of rewilding, it shows the rewildology of our ecosystems. You know, it was proved to me that the things we studied in school, these concepts, they actually work. And of course it was such a big thing that of course it had been locally led. It was by people that look, it was by people that looked like me, you know, not just people coming in and doing it for us and then leaving. And so it was so inspiring to be A part of Redonda still the proudest thing I've done to this day. And yeah, we.
We're just so proud of what has happened over there. And of course, I've been trying to get even more people involved in what has gone on in Redonda and telling others in the region and internationally about the work that has happened.
[01:09:08] Speaker A: Yes, it is such an incredible, tangible, inspiring story. It's like there was an island that was literally crumbling from the pressure that was put on it, and now it is a thriving ecosystem and it's now a protected area. I mean, no wonder you're so proud. Like, I feel proud. Like, I can only imagine being in your shoes and, like, how I would feel like I feel all warm and fuzzy myself. And I'm just hearing this story, like, with how. How incredible the work was. And so now you have moved on to even bigger and in other respects, harder projects because Redonda was not inhabited by people, but a lot of the Caribbean is inhabited by people. So now what would you say? Well, I guess that this might be a good time to say that you have now shifted to doing other projects and working on other things now. There's an amazing person that is control of radon of that project now and that you are now working on other ones with the eag. So what have you shared? Shifted to.
And as I kind of just dropped a little bit of a hint, humans are now involved. So how do you go about rewilding these other islands where there's a lot more, let's say, factors?
[01:10:32] Speaker B: Yes, involved. Factors. Factors. Okay. So, yes. So my role as Redonda Restoration Program coordinator was from 2016 to 2019. And then in 2019, I decided that I wanted to increase my knowledge, so I went to do my master's.
That's a funny way to put it. I decided to seek more knowledge and decided to do my master's. So I got a chevening scholarship in 2019, and I went to the University of Kent in the UK to get my master's degree in Conservation Biology from the Darrell Institute of Conservation and Ecology up there.
And right before I started my degree, I tore my acl. Well, technically my acl, my mcl, and something else during juve morning during our Carnival celebrations in Antigua, did a little bit too much and ended up injuring myself. So I had, of course, the knee. I also was going through a period of rediscovery, so I, like, cut off my hair. I was, like, really going through a rebirth of sorts in 2019.
[01:11:44] Speaker A: We've all been there, girl. You Know these babies, that part of that.
[01:11:50] Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep. So I cut my hair and moved to a different country. All of that, right. I went up in September 2019. And then we all know what happened in 2020. So, sadly, I did have to come back down in March on the last. They had to Antigua and Barbuda.
And, you know, I'm very grateful that I had my Redonda data that I had been collecting from before. So I was able to use that for my dissertation because, of course, there was no fieldwork allowed, no this, no that. Actually, my masters were supposed to be on birds, obviously, but shifted into lizards, which I was still happy about. And I was able, despite, you know, having to wake up at 4am and all of that, I was able to get my master's and graduate in 2020. And my. I was still, you know, attached to the EAG at that time. I still plan to come back because again, with my scholarship, I had to come back to Antigua to work anyway. And my boss at the time, she had said, shana, what do you. What would you think about doing some of the other islands? And I'm like, okay, thinking about it, thinking about it, because I was very happy with Redonda. You know, Redonda is just birds and lizards, literally. And when I talk to the animals, they don't talk back. So, you know, it was a lot less people, a lot less people.
Inclusion.
They were stakeholders, of course, but not anybody on the island that I had to deal with. But these islands that she was talking about, they're, like, visited by over 100,000 people a year. And so it was a very big shift from what I had done before. But again, this last name that I've been given, Challenger. I always am like, okay, here's another challenge for me to tackle. And I said, yes. And so from September, I started on September 1, 2020, and I am now the coordinator of the Offshore Islands Conservation program with the EAG.
So the OICP, it is where EAG's story really began in 1995. So, again, we were just kind of a grassroots organization.
And I had mentioned earlier in the interview about the fact that we had all of these species that were extremely and no longer found. And one of those species that was thought to be extinct was the Antiguan racer snake. And so it was thought, I think it was declared extinct in 1936, and nobody had seen it, nobody had heard of it until in the 90s when a member of the forestry unit said that he thought he had seen this grass snake on one of the Offshore islands.
And so the EAGA and our partners, you know, did a quick survey and they found 50, 50 of the snakes on this island. So it's like, okay, woohoo. The snake is not extinct. But oh, this island is overrun with rats and if we don't do something about it, it probably could become extinct for real. And so with our partners, and especially with Dr. Jenny Daltrey, my mentor and my first boss, she actually came to the island. She, she actually has a worse rat story than mine. So her, the rats on Great Bird actually came into her tent and chewed off her watch wristband.
[01:15:33] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[01:15:34] Speaker B: I know, I know, I know.
You know, as if, as if my, I don't know what it is with the rats in the Caribbean. Like they, they feel like they own the place. They're just gonna do. She literally woke up with her watch wristband chewed off. That is gone insane. It was crazy. And so she and some of the members of the EAG would have done the first eradication. It was actually the first black rat eradication in the eastern Caribbean in 1995. And you know, the focus was to be able to help this snake make sure that it does not remain exist because of course at the time that was the rarest snake in the world. And you know, did the same process. Of course they had to cut trails this time, but blade down the bait, all of that. And turns out the eradication was a success. The snake numbers started to go up. And then the EAG and our partners realized, wait, not only are the snakes benefiting the lizards that is their main prey, they also are increasing the habitat, the plant diversity and distribution is increasing. And the birds, especially the grow nesting ones, are also increasing. Turns out everybody likes being in a rat free environment.
And so spoiler alert, everybody likes being in a place there's no rats. And so because of the success of this EAG said, okay, we did it once, can we do it again? Because this island, Antigua and Bar Beauty, we actually have 51 offshore islands that are like limestone in nature. Yeah, the beaches on there count as part of our 365. By the way, the tourism authority, they're really, you know, trying to push this365. One day I'm going to try and see if I can actually count how many they are, but those ones count as well. And so this island, Great Bird island, is where all everything began.
This island, it is shaped like a butt plug. And that's the way that we're able to, that's the way that we're here. There's so many islands, Brooke. We have to have the little things to be able to identify them. Okay. So we've never.
When I put it on the screen, y'all are gonna be like, you know what?
I see it.
So we started on the butt plug one.
[01:18:11] Speaker A: I'm gonna say bird, not butt plug.
[01:18:15] Speaker B: No, no. So it was named great bird because of all of the birds that used to be there. But again, Cause of the rats, they went down. But, you know, now everything is bursting with life again. So around this butt plug island are other small islands, and we decide to eradicate those as well, because rats can use islands as stepping stones. Right? So if I colonize this island, I can go to this island, then I can go to where the snakes are. So we eradicated the ones nearest to it, and we actually ended up rewilding 10 of the islands at that time and reintroducing the snake to three other islands.
Another one. So one of the islands looks like a banana rabbit.
The other island looks like a dog or a mongoose. And then the last island, York, it actually is shaped like Donald Trump. And I'll put it on the screen. Y'all will see it.
You have to do these little things to remember which islands, guys.
And once you see it, you're gonna be like, yeah, that does look like Donald Trump. It looks like his side profile to be toupee and all. It is actually quite.
It's actually quite impressive. I'm gonna actually pull up that one Donald Trump.
I'm pulling up that one for Brooke right now because she has to see it.
[01:19:47] Speaker A: I know. I'm, like, dying.
[01:19:49] Speaker B: Are you ready?
[01:19:50] Speaker A: Coffee chat. This was supposed to be a wine chat.
[01:19:52] Speaker B: Does that look. Oh, my God.
[01:19:54] Speaker A: Shut up. That does look like Donald Trump, dude.
[01:20:00] Speaker B: No, wait.
[01:20:01] Speaker A: Has its chin and the nose and.
[01:20:03] Speaker B: The hair and the tope.
[01:20:05] Speaker A: The hair. Co. Slick back hair.
[01:20:06] Speaker B: I told you.
[01:20:12] Speaker A: Now can you show me the butt plug one? Now I gotta see the butt plug one.
[01:20:14] Speaker B: Yep. You have to. Okay, so let me show you the other one. So this is the one that looks like a dog or a mongoose. You can kind of see it's like.
[01:20:22] Speaker A: A phone of horse.
[01:20:23] Speaker B: Correct. You see it? Then the one that looks kind of like a banana is this one. You see it is kind of like a banana regular.
[01:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah, we can peel that. Yep, I can see that. Yep.
[01:20:34] Speaker B: And then the butt plug one.
Let me.
There's a handle.
The conversation is going off of the rails, guys. But this is how it happens.
This is what we do.
[01:20:55] Speaker A: On this show. And as I genuinely say, this is the first time butt plugs have been said on this show.
[01:21:00] Speaker B: Okay, great.
[01:21:01] Speaker A: Hysterical.
[01:21:02] Speaker B: Thank you. A rewildology first, guys. You did look like a butt plug first.
And in this rewilding field we have to hold on to these little things that bring us joy in between things. So I'm glad I was able.
[01:21:17] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:21:18] Speaker B: Some comedic relief. So the snakes were reintroduced to these four islands based on, you know, their size, the sympatheticness of the owner. So I should also say, remember this area that I'm working in now, it falls within our countries. At the time it was the largest marine reserve. It's called the Northeast Marine Management area. It's like 10,475 hectares in size, which is about the size of Disneyland in Florida. And it has all of these offshore islands involved. And so these islands are like, if you go to the Caribbean and you've ever been on like a catamaran kind of cruise thing, this is one of the stops that they go on and you'll have like your lobster lunch and your rum punch. This is just turning into a tourism commercial, isn't it?
[01:22:11] Speaker A: I feel like I need like a Mai Tai right now.
[01:22:13] Speaker B: I know. I'm listening to it and I'm like, that doesn't sound too bad for right now. For real. I know.
[01:22:18] Speaker A: Pina colada. Like I kind of wish I was drinking with you on a beach having this conversation, you know.
[01:22:22] Speaker B: Correct. So there's, you know, that's how these tours go and literally you get hundreds at this point. I think the formal estimate was 100,000, but I think at least now it's like about 200,000 people visiting any of these offshore islands every year because they are beautiful. And I will say, once you've rewilded an island, I'm sure this has come up before.
Once you rewild an island, you can immediately tell. You could immediately tell when you're passing by what has been rewilded and what hasn't been. So the islands that have, still have rats on them are like dry, desolate, you know, still vegetation there, but just not life. But the ones that we rewilded, there's like birds that look like black pepper in the sky, there's like turtles swimming around. Like you can immediately see this island has been restored. And so the double edged sword of these islands being restored is the fact that they become very attractive for coastal development.
So especially since all of the islands that I mentioned are privately owned. And if you're asking yourself, but Shana why can somebody buy an island?
That's because it's the Caribbean and people who have a lot of money can. Can buy those kinds of things, especially when they were bought around the time that we were just getting into tourism, the government really wanted money. You know, they sold them for like, dirt cheap.
And, you know, they've been in the families ever since. And so the owners of the islands have been rather sympathetic. Of course they are allowing us to have the snakes on the islands, et cetera. But I would say, especially since the pandemic. I don't know if we can say pandemic. Do I need to say panini Press?
[01:24:15] Speaker A: No, you can say panini.
[01:24:16] Speaker B: It's fine. Okay. So especially since the pandemic, the pressure for development on the islands has increased significantly. And so everybody is kind of putting up a restaurant. Everybody. So they also watch each other as well. So, oh, you put up a restaurant. So I'm going to put up a restaurant. You put up this. So I'm going to put up that. And it's getting to the point where it's very difficult for us as the eag, because we are an NGO and we're very well respected in Antigua for being environmental advocates for our rewilding work and that kind of thing. But we do not have a specific mandate that allows us to legally say this cannot happen.
Nothing like that. Right. It's more of an advisory role. So it's getting to the point now where we're realizing there's a lot of developments on the offshore islands. We're also recognizing that the snakes are being impacted. So like I would have mentioned, in 1995, the snake population was 50. We were the rarest snake in the world. Really not looking good. Then we reintroduced them to the other islands. So it's now in four spots, not just one. And the population was about 1,200 in 2015 or so. In the past decade, we are now seeing more issues happening. One of the islands that has the biggest stronghold for the snakes actually ended up being reinvaded with rats, like three additional times. And so if the stronghold population number goes down, the entire population goes down. Right. And so in 2023, the estimate was about 100 and less than 300. Sorry, the estimate was less than 300 individuals remaining in the world. So obviously we woo wee, woo wee woo. We had to take action. And so the first thing we did, we collaboratively developed an Antiguan racer conservation action plan to make sure this species survives and is not going to become extinct. And it includes a Number of different things, including outreach and education, in situ monitoring, research and of course, government and stakeholder involvement. Because the next thing that we're going to have to do, Brooke, and it's still going to be a bit controversial, we are going to need to bring the snakes back to Antigua.
I know first I did the goats and now I'm doing the snakes. And I will say the Antigua racer. It is completely harmless, it is not venomous, it's not poisonous and it is just a beauty really. She's good looking. They're good looking. And their only defense mechanism is to released this musk, kind of like a skunk. It smells pretty stinky to some people because I spend so much time around goats and rats and that kind of thing. My sense of smell is completely gone. So it doesn't smell that stinky to me anymore.
But to normal people it does have a bit of a stink and that's their defense mechanism. And so we want to be able to establish like an arc site for the Antiguan racer as well as some other wildlife that is threatened in Antigua and Barbuda. And so we are working very closely with the government to see if we can get them to vest a piece of land to us for this purpose. Of course, bringing snakes of any kind to the mainland is going to be a bit controversial because as people we are, we grow up hating snakes, right? From the Bible, from ee they're the reason women have periods. Like, it's just, you know, bad rep, really, really bad rep. So I know it's an uphill battle, but again, challenge, another challenge for the challenger and I am determined to see that through.
One of the things that we have been doing, of course, and focusing on this year and next year is going to be outreach and education and I think, you know, once people figure out like we're not just, you know, releasing the snakes in town for them to be wriggling around people's feet, that we're gonna, you know, have them in the country further away in this predator proof fence that, you know, they'll be able to live and thrive where they're supposed to be on the mainland. We're also gonna be able to have like an educational component where community groups, schools, tourists, people can come and see an Antigua racer in Antigua. So that is the vision for where we're trying to go. We're gonna definitely have to do a lot of community sensitization. One of the things I want it to be is that it's not like, okay, we're just bringing these snakes in there and y'all have to deal with it. These snakes are being placed near to your community, but we don't want to. Only we want to improve the community as a whole and make sure you see benefit as well. So getting them involved in the eradication of that area, getting them involved by, you know, giving them trees and stuff to help beautify their own home, their own place at home, and even getting them, you know, to come and see the snakes when we're releasing the first ones there as well. So that is the plan. In 2025, it will actually be the 30th anniversary of the Australia Islands Conservation Program. So I think what could possibly be better than being able to bring the snakes home for their 30th birthday, which coincides with my 30th birthday. So that's my. That's my birthday gift. I'm hoping for, for myself that we'll be able to see that through again. The islands, we, we continue to manage the area as best as we can with all of the challenges that we do experience, but we want to have some autonomy and be able to, you know, see the snakes when we want to see the snakes and go there when we can. And so that's what's next for the oicp.
[01:30:44] Speaker A: That is a massive project. Wow.
How rewarding to bring the antigen racer back to Antigua. Like, I mean, how perfect, right? What could possibly be back home?
[01:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so we still have some groundwork to do with the government and stuff to really make sure that happens, but we feel hopeful about it. And again, it would not even just be for the racer. There are other species, such as the lesser Antillian iguana, that are really, really rare, really, really threatened in our country. You can barely. Only, I think you can only find maybe 12 of them left in Antigua.
There's some in Lake Montserrat and so. But in Antigua, we only have about 12 because they've been extirpated by the green iguana.
Being able to plant, of course, some native trees there as well. Our national flower or national plant, the agave or the dagalog, as we call it, we're realizing that they're dying out as well. Everything is freaking dying out. Brooke, as you know how this. As you know how this field can go, it can be quite depressing sometimes. But we see it as such a unique opportunity to have like this wildlife refuge right there in Antigua. And yeah, we're excited to see that it will come to fruition, hopefully, if not next year, then 2026.
[01:32:18] Speaker A: So as we look towards the future, I have a couple questions. So first, since the Caribbean is such a tourist destination, I mean, for people all over the world, it's a. I know it's a big one for the us, For Americans, I think I'm one of the few people that. Of people I know that travel have not been to the Caribbean. I just. Not that I don't want to go. I just haven't made it yet. We might have to change that.
But what can we do as visitors to Antigua, to any of these other islands, if anybody's island hopping, going to Puerto Rico, Cuba, whatever it is, but also where you are in work? How can we be better stewards, better visitors, and support this rewilding work when we are coming to islands, in your case specifically the Caribbean?
[01:33:12] Speaker B: That's a good question, Brooke, because, yeah, you can feel a little powerless, like, okay, now that I know all of these things are happening, does that mean I can't have my rum punch on my boat cruise? You know?
[01:33:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a big thing. Yeah.
[01:33:27] Speaker B: You know, it doesn't mean that at all. I think one thing that you can do to be like, more ecologically conscious as a traveler to the Caribbean is to find out about the local NGOs that are in that country. Because, especially because I've been in this field somehow for eight years now.
Crazy.
Because I've been in this field for eight years now. I have had the opportunity to network with and work with a lot of the other people who are doing the kind of work I do in their respective islands. So I can almost guarantee that there is some kind of group in Dominica, in Montserrat, in Anguilla, in Saint Lucia, in Barbados. There's definitely somebody who is doing something for the environment and is in need of your support. So try and inquire about the local NGO who is on the ground. And if you can even you can just give a donation, like, if you're like, okay, I just want to give you all a little something something, or you can find them on Instagram or something. They probably have the donation link. Then go ahead and do that. Another thing you can kind of do is to inquire about any initiatives they have that you can be a part of. So at the ehe, of course, we offer, like birdwatching. We also have a sea turtle monitoring program. And so you can also come and do night patrols or early morning patrols with us as well.
And I know some of the other islands, they have like nature walks, hikes, that kind of thing. And so there's definitely something that you can get involved in. And because it is with the ngo, you know that whatever you're contributing is going to go directly into continuing the conservation work. And I think that is the easiest way of making sure it actually goes right back into conservation. Because, you know, if you go to somebody else and they kind of say, okay, yeah, we're going to do this, but you don't actually know that they're going to do it. It's a bit of a unsurity there. But that is one way of making sure that your contribution is going to local conservation. I think you can also amplify the things that you found out. So, you know, as rat experts, following this interview, you need to tell everybody you know about the rat eradication that has happened. And you all can just Google Redonda in general.
Several articles will pop up if you need any more information, share that information. And if there's anybody who, you know, that is interested in rewilding or wants to learn lessons about how we did it, please reach out and tell those persons so that they can get involved and we can kind of continue this rewilding that's happening really around the world. Because the more people that recognize the power of ecosystem restoration for our planet now and into the future, the better I think things will be. I know under the global biodiversity monitoring framework right now, that is one of the targets that they talk about, restore restoration of ecosystems. So we just need the governments to hold themselves accountable and do what they're supposed to do and support the people who are like me, on the ground doing the work. Because it's not easy work, guys. It's very difficult. It can be a very depressing field at times. But because we love the work that we do, because we want to be that different, we do stick it out. So just, you know, following people on Instagram, following people's Facebook pages, just being in the know, like, oh, this is what they're doing in Antigua, this is what they're doing in Barbados. It can really help us on the ground. And then lastly, like, if you are attached to anybody who knows some sort of skill that might be relevant to us, capacity building is like a big, big, big one for us in the region. We're always trying to, especially with the pandemic when people couldn't, you know, come into our islands to do the work, we, the ones who were there, had to do the work. And so we're really trying to build up this cadre of environmental professionals in the Caribbean who are able to do this work. So if you have some link to some university that's doing something or some kind of startup that has some sorts of ecosystem restoration aspect, then definitely reach out to see where we can collaborate. But yeah, those are the things I would say that you can do to be more ecologically conscious during your trip.
[01:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah, those are fantastic tips and of course I always love to ask. So if anybody wants to support you, get a hold of you. Support the eag. Yes, anything like that. What is the best way for people to go about that?
[01:38:31] Speaker B: Okay, so you can follow us on Instagram at Eagantiga. I should also say, well, eag, we are on Instagram, we're on Twitter X. We're on X, yeah, Twitter X. I.
[01:38:44] Speaker A: Don'T know, that's what I say.
[01:38:45] Speaker B: I'm like X Twitter, you know, X Twitter whenever the X is still not catching. But we're also on YouTube. We're also on YouTube. So there's actually we have a documentary that speaks about all the work that we did with Redonda. So you can see that teaser on YouTube. We will be releasing the full documentary at some point. It's just that we're currently entering the documentary into film festivals and it can't be publicly available yet. But you can watch the teaser on it. And for myself, you can find me at specieswithshanna on Instagram or specieswithshan on X LinkedIn. You can just type in Shanna Challenger anyway and really find me. And yeah, we are even trying to now open up so that we can do like more internship opportunities, start partnerships with universities, et cetera. Like these are research priorities and if you have a program, can we kind of fit it in together? So there's definitely opportunities. I know somebody might ask, can I visit Redonda like for tourism?
Eag, we're actually the management agency for the Redonda Ecosystem Reserve, which is the first protected area being managed via public private partnership. So you would have to to go through us if you want to go to Redonda. So you would reach out to my colleague Janella Bradshaw, she is the coordinator for the Redonda Ecosystem Reserve. So she is over the management of the protected area, making sure everything keeps good and that the management objectives that we're hoping to do and achieve are being completed. So you would be able to. You can also email us eagantiga.net so if you are coming to Antigua, you want to do something, you want to come and see the Butt Plug island for your for yourself, please reach out, please reach out and we will definitely see what's possible so that you can come along on one of our bios security trips and see what it's like to be a conservationist in the Caribbean.
[01:41:04] Speaker A: That sounds amazing. You might. If I just happen to get on a plane and join you, I'm excited to throw that out there.
If anybody wants to come along, let's go. Like I just said, I've not been to the Caribbean and well, because, I mean, I'm just not going to get on a big cruise ship. Everybody knows I'm an ecotourism. I'm not going to do that. Like, I just, I'm not shaming anybody who has done that. But like, I. Morally I can't do that. So I've even been invited a few times and I'm just like, no, thanks for the invite, but I'm not going to do that. So, yeah, if there's another form of a trip that we can figure out, especially to go see biosecurity things like across the islands and see what you guys do in person, that would be wild.
[01:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, because I didn't even mention this part. But like as part of the biosecurity again, you start thinking and becoming a rat, Right. So you're not only looking to see the teeth marks on the bait, you're also looking to see if there's any footprints on the sand or in the dirt nearby. If you find any droppings, we do kind of crunch them up to just smell them and see what's in them. It's a very.
Is this why my sense of smell is gone?
But it's just not thinking all these things. It's a very interesting job that we work and I would say for anybody who is interested in joining the conservation field, it is extremely rewarding. Like when I see the booby chicks, you know, living their lives and not having to worry about being eaten by Bonnie and Clyde before they could even exist. It is so rewarding seeing these islands, seeing what is possible because of rewilding and restoration efforts. It is an encouraging.
And again, you don't have to be in a behind of a desk all of the time. Like, especially if I'm doing too much reporting stuff, I'll be like, okay, I have to schedule a field day. Cause I have to be outside. I must, must, must, must be outside. But it can be extremely rewarding. As a career woman, you can be any shape, you can be any size, you can be any color. Anybody can get involved in conservation in any way. And I would challenge your listeners in your daily lives. No matter what profession you're in, is there a way that you can kind of incorporate the environment or ecology or something into your way of life? So if you're a lawyer, can you read up on environmental law and do something in that aspect? If you are a tour operator, can you find a way to be more eco friendly or ecologically conscious? What are the different ways that you can incorporate the environment into your current offering because it not only seeks to benefit you, but also the next generation as well. So don't be afraid to come over to the, to the green side. It's lovely here.
[01:44:19] Speaker A: It's beautiful here. Yeah, a lot of work. We all have a dark sense of humor as I've alluded to many times on the show and as people got to hear firsthand and it's just a great thing. And then of course, if anybody reaches out, I get asked quite a lot if there's opportunities for people to get more hands on work, if they just want to visit or want to try things out or anything. So yeah, everyone let me know. I'll have all the links to the eag and Shauna, of course on rewordology. So check out the show notes if you want to learn more, hear more, read more, anything. It'll all be in one place and that'll get you to where you need to go. But Shauna, thank you so much for spending your morning with me enjoying a cup of coffee. I will say that mine is gone. Mine is thoroughly gone. I was enjoying listening to everything with you. So again, thank you for your work. Thank you for spending, like I said, your morning with me. And I also want to give a shout out to Milo at Rewild for connecting us. Thank you so much, Milo. This was. You knew exactly who I needed to talk to. So I will make sure that Milo gets a big virtual hug from me for introducing us. So Shawna, again, thank you for coming on. You're incredible. I cannot wait to share your story.
[01:45:38] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Brooke. And thank you Milo, again to all of the partners and supporters that have worked on Redonda. They will all be listed in the description box below. There's many, many of them. So I don't want to miss out anybody but a very big shout out to to our partners, Fawn and Flora and Rewild because they were very instrumental in being able to make Redonda the restoration success that it is today. So yes, thank you Brooke. Thank you Rewildology. And I can't wait to continue to rewild Ologize the islands.
[01:46:23] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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