[00:00:00] Speaker A: The Democratic Republic of Congo's rainforest shelter the critically endangered growers gorillas. Found nowhere else on earth, these remarkable great apes face mounting threats pushing them closer to extinction. So what does it take to rescue, rehabilitate and protect a species in a challenging conservation landscape?
Welcome back to Rewildology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today we're diving into the world of growers gorillas with Lori Cummins, Acting Deputy and Education Director at Grace, the Gorilla Rehabilitation and Conservation Education center in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Grace is an outstanding sanctuary for orphan growers or eastern lowland gorillas, which is a critically endangered subspecies of the gorilla. Through their innovative rehabilitation program and a deep commitment to community based conservation, Grace is pioneering a new path forward for great ape conservation.
In this conversation, Lori and I explore the fascinating world of growers gorillas, from their unique characteristics to the complex challenges threatening their survival. We delve into Grace's three pillar approach to conservation, discovering how they're not just saving gorillas, but transforming entire communities and protecting crucial rainforest habitat. You'll learn about their groundbreaking rehabilitation program and how their community first approach is setting a new standard for conservation organizations worldwide.
Before we dive in, if you're loving what you're hearing, hit that subscribe button, leave a rating and review and share this episode with your other wildlife obsessed friends. Every listen helps spread the good conservation word.
All right, that's enough for me. Let's journey into the incredible world of grower's gorilla conservation with Lori Cummins and discover how Grace is working to secure a future for these remarkable great apes.
Hi Lori, thank you so much for calling in and sitting down with me to talk about this very, very special group of gorillas in the drc. So first, I know I'm very curious and I'm sure a lot of people are as well. What is your journey into guerrilla conservation? How did you end up at Greece?
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Well, hi Brooke. It's such a treat to be here and I am so excited to talk about one of my favorite topics which is gorillas and community conservation. And I feel like it's been such an incredible journey and such a blessing to be on this path. So thinking about my journey, it's been an interesting one. I always like to say that life isn't linear. So, you know, where I thought I was going to be to where I am now are totally different.
But when I look back, I can sort of see the steps along the way that were guiding me here. So it's been a fun journey so far. And I'm, you know, halfway through, so just, I guess, kind of still getting started. But what I will say is I grew up in Michigan, so I grew up in Ann Arbor, which is where University of Michigan is. And I had a lot of opportunity to spend time outside as a kid. And I think that was part of shaping me into who I am today. I got to spend time at nature camps and, you know, just in the backyard and camping with my family and on the water. And I think that sort of started a love of nature that's led me on this path.
I went to college. I still didn't know what I was going to do. And when I got to college, I was undeclared. And I tried all these different classes and was really kind of getting a feel for whether I wanted to do writing or communications or graphic design, computer science. I was in music. I was always in band. So I, at one point thought about being a performance major.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: What'd you play?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: I played flute. So, yeah, marching band and all of that. So. So fun. So I, yeah, had done all these different things, and then I decided maybe I wanted to do earth science. So I ended up actually in earth science classes. And I talked to a professor, and I thought I was going to do oceanography. And of course, the professor is like, you don't do oceanography in Michigan. You need to go somewhere on the ocean. Right? Like, okay.
But through a series of conversations there, it actually led me to the Biology Department. And so I ended up in biology, which I loved. And I ended up having some great professors that sort of shaped me into this path that I'm on now. So I think one of the stories that I remember very vividly as I was in, I think, my freshman biology class, you know, and you had to do lab for the first time, and then you had to write up all of your results and all of that. And I wrote this whole paper, and I was so excited about it, and I turned it in and got my grade back, and I got like a or something on it, and the ta, the science TA at the time, pulled me aside, and he's like, hey, you know, I really wanted to, like, grade you higher on this because it's a great creative writing piece. Like, you actually wrote, like, a really good article for a magazine or something. But, like, this is not scientific writing, so you have to figure out how to write scientifically. And I was, like, crushed because I couldn't understand.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: I had the Same feeling back in the day.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Thank gosh. My creative writing got beat out of me and I'm like, I don't even know how to do it now. So. Wow, we totally connect on that. But if.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: But if it's not fun, nobody's going to read it. Like, I don't understand.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Good point.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: So, yes, it did. And you're like, are you kidding? So anyway, that happened. And so all of these things, I was like, but nobody cares. Nobody's going to want to read it. I learned how to write scientifically. But moments like that kept happening, right? So I'd be like, hey, we're out talking about invasive aquatic mussels in the Great Lakes. And like, this is a huge issue. It's a huge issue for industry and fisheries and economy, right?
But just telling people to rinse off their boats wasn't enough. And I was like, people don't care. So I kept coming back to like, people don't care. People don't know.
We have to make it relevant to them. That led me to a career in conservation education, and then that's ultimately led me to working for Grace. So it's been a fun journey.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Well, how'd you get to Grace? I mean, we're talking about gorillas in the drc and this is the organization.
Okay, how do we get from Great Lakes to Grace?
[00:06:31] Speaker B: That's fair. That's totally fair. So Grace stands for the Guerrilla Rehabilitation and Conservation Education. I should say that. And it is an organization focused on growers, gorillas that are only found in Democratic Republic of Congo.
And so, yeah, so I had done this work in college. I actually took a biology of spiders class that was life changing. I love spiders. You can probably see spiders behind me here.
So I'd done all this stuff and again, I kept thinking, you know, nobody's advocating for these species. Like, who cares about spiders, right? I do. A lot of people do. But how do you get the word out? And so over time, I was doing field work, I was doing lab work, but I kept coming back to this. People need to care. People need to care. And that brought me to an internship at Disney's Animal Kingdom. And so after college, I went down, I did an internship there and I had the opportunity to talk with millions of guests in the park about species like spiders, like gorillas, and kind of everything in between, and really got to hone my skills on how we encourage people to think more broadly or think differently and understand how we're all connected to nature in that space. So I spent about 13 years at Disney's Animal Kingd, and in that time I got the opportunity to help support Grace and their education team. So Grace was actually started in the mid-2000s, and it was started sort of by a coalition or a partnership between local community, traditional and national leaders, several conservation organizations, and then several zoos, including Disease Animal Kingdom. And so one of the science directors at Animal Kingdom was pivotal in really getting Grace started. And so once they got the sanctuary built, because we have a sanctuary for 13 rescued gorillas, once we got sanctuary built, then she really knew the next step needed to be community engagement. And so she brought my mentor and myself in to help create curriculum, help create training materials, and help work with the Congolese educators to start doing outreach with the community. So I was an Advisor for about 10 years, and then I was able to join the team full time in 2021 as their community engagement manager and helping to support the team full time through all of their outreach and all of their education expansion too. So. So it's been cool.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: So when was the. When was Grace founded then? It sounds like you've been there almost since day one, or pretty much not.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Quite since day one, but for almost 10 years now. So the idea for Grace sort of began in 2008, and really it was a response to the illegal wildlife trade. So we had, you know, rescued growers, gorillas coming in, being confiscated by the Congolese Wildlife Authority, and they really didn't have a permanent place to go. So there were amazing partners in the region that were able to provide temporary care and sort of triage care. But then, you know, we knew these gorillas were going to grow. They needed a place where they could learn to be gorillas again. And so the need for a permanent sanctuary really was identified quickly.
And so that whole construction and sort of first phase of Grace took a couple years. And I think the first gorillas were transferred there in 2010, and then I got involved in 2013, I think. So it's been a little over 10 years that I've been a part of Grace one way or the other.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Ah, how cool. That is a really cool story. It's almost the dream of us in conservation, where it's like we can use our skills to truly support on the ground conservation, you know, where it's needed most. And as we're going to get into very shortly. Yeah, I think. But first, this is a strong assumption or good assumption that a lot of people have not heard of Growlers, Growler's gorillas. Could you maybe explain what is this is a different species? Is there another name for them? Where are they found? Where they located? What is their conservation status? Yeah, just give us like a growers gorillas 101 so that we know who we're talking about.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, I would love to. So Growers gorillas are also called eastern lowland gorillas. Their scientific name is Gorilla Beringi Growri, one of four subspecies of gorillas found in the world. So all gorillas are found in Africa. Of the gorilla species you've got two sort of subspecies. So there's western lowland gorillas and eastern gorillas. And so the westerns include western lowland gorillas like you see in a lot of the AZA accredited zoos. So they're the most common of the four, but still endangered. I think there's somewhere around 100,000 of them left in the wilderness. The western gorillas also include what they call Cross river gorillas, which are really highly endangered. There's only about 300 of those left and they're only found sort of at the Nigeria Cameroon border. And then in the eastern category you have mountain gorillas, which a lot of people are familiar with. They're the fluffiest of the gorillas. They live at the highest elevations. They're an amazing species. And there's some amazing organizations like the Dianfosse Gorilla Fund that's working to save them, and then the growers gorillas. And so they're sort of closely related to mountain gorillas, but they're not exactly the same. So growers are only found in Democratic Republic of the Congo. They're actually the largest of the four subspecies. So they can get quite big. I think the record was a male, sort of in the range of £600.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Whoa.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: So huge, Huge, huge, huge, yeah. Not every gorilla, of course gets that large. I think 400 is probably more accurate. But huge gorillas, largest of the the four subspecies and super, super special because they're only found in Congo. And in fact they're only found in like an eastern portion of Dr. Congo. So they are critically endangered. There's about 6,800 of them left and they've seen a population decline of somewhere between 70 to 80% in the last 20 years. So they really do they need our help.
And as we know, all gorillas, they're a keystone species or an umbrella species. So when we protect gorillas, we're protecting a lot of other species and some amazing biodiversity in the process.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: So what are some of the top threats that's then caused this 70 to 80% decrease in their population numbers?
[00:12:33] Speaker B: That's a great question. So, I mean, they have a smaller home range, right? So anytime an animal's got a smaller home range, any amount of habitat loss can be a challenge for them. And we've definitely seen a challenge with habitat loss in Eastern drc.
Some of the main threats are deforestation, illegal hunting, illegal wildlife trade, which Grace is working to address, and then the demand for bushmeat. And some of those tend to be interconnected. There's also a high poverty rate in this region and there's a lot of human conflict right now, which is something that Grace is also working, you know, to address. In some ways, we really believe in the ability to promote peace and security and sustainability through conservation.
And so I think that's a big part of some of the underlying drivers to their decline. Right. So if people are trying to find safe space for their family, if people are trying to find food, jobs, we're constantly, no matter where you live, we're constantly sometimes imbalanced, sometimes out of balance with nature. And so I think one of the things we really try to look at is how can we support Congolese communities and how can we encourage community driven, community led, community designed solutions that benefit people and guerrillas to try to address some of these threats?
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Well, let's get into that, actually, because one thing that I love about Grace is I view it as a true community based conservation ngo.
And it's rare, it's getting more common now as conservation is shifting. But it's, I still think, pretty rare to find an organization that is a truly community based conservation organization. So could you go into that? Why is Grace different? How did it actually get started? And then, yeah, let's start there. How did this actually come to be from a community standpoint?
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I recognize and appreciate that. I am a white American speaking on behalf of the Congolese team. And so when we're talking about community based conservation, that irony is not lost on me. So I just want to acknowledge that. But what I will say is we have a very small team in the US so there's about five of us here in the US and then the remainder of the team, over 100 people now are in Congo. And so when we say community led, it really is. My role is very much support and sort of strategy, you know, outreach to help connect our global audiences. But the core of the work is happening in Congo by our incredible Congolese team. So we have an amazing DRC director, Jackson Kabia Mbeke. And Jackson has been with the project since the beginning. He Started as a logistician. So he was helping with, like, you know, transport and deliveries and supplies and, you know, all of these kind of coordination pieces that go into running a sanctuary. He was helping with that. And he has continued to grow his leadership skills, continued to kind of flourish and be this incredible leader for the organization. And so now he's in charge of all of our program pillars and all of our operations in Congo.
But before that, the sanctuary itself. So once we knew this need was there for these Browers guerrillas, the community in the region already had a huge buy in to conservation. So we work under the blessing of traditional governance structures. So there's two kings in the region, two Bamis, who have two primary kingdoms, the Bamadi and Batangi peoples. And so that entire group of folks has been dedicated from the beginning to this vision of people and animals living in harmony and specifically guerrilla conservation. So one of the lead mwamistuka is one of the kings of the region. He's also one of the lead Muamis for all of Congo. And he talks about a vision that he's had for a long time about kind of being a center for gorilla conservation and why that's so important. So when the need for the sanctuary continued to become more urgent, the community there, including the Muamis, and then also one of the local colleges, Taina College for Conservation Biology, they all kind of came forward and said, hey, we've got this great area, we've got this great piece of land. We would love to donate it to build this sanctuary. So we have an incredible photo of Momizuka actually placing the cornerstone for Grace. And, you know, since that moment, we've promised to always be a part of the community, promise to employ people from the community, promise to do outreach in the community and make sure that everything is done with the blessing of the community now and in perpetuity.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah, just. I mean, there you go.
There you go. Exactly. That's why this is so different. This is not umbrella conservation. This is not any of those other, you know, swoop in, tell people, this is what you need to do. You need to protect your gorillas. Like, no, like, this was the opposite. They saw a need. You know, these people is incredibly just how smart. You know, let's go to these organizations that might have the resources we need to protect these gorillas, but we want to protect them. Like, just, ah, I love this story. I love Grace. This is just. I'm so happy to be sitting with you and talking about the story. So you did mention that Jackson is The he manages the three pillars of the organization. Could you go into that? What are the focus areas that you all work on?
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we started as a sanctuary, as I mentioned, and, you know, that was a core of what we did for probably the first five to 10 years, alongside local community education. So there's a community, a village right around Grace, Kotoyo, and then just down the mountain, Kusuo. So we had done some community outreach there. And so that was kind of what we did for the first maybe decade or so. But because we have that sanctuary there, we've really built roots and built trust with the community. And that's led to a series of conversations and a lot of dialogue with community members about what else they expect from Grace and what kind of the next phase of Grace looks like. And so we are really, really honored to partner with a local community forest reserve. So just adjacent is Taina Nature Reserve. And that nature reserve is incredible. It's the first of its kind in Congo. It was donated when 21 families came together and donated. I'm sorry, it was created when 21 families came together, donated their land, dedicated it to conservation.
And so these families called Barazas, like from that point forward, again, have also been committed to conservation. But over time, it's kind of come clear that, you know, they. They did this and also hoped that there would be some economic benefit from it and that peace never really came. And so in conversation with Jackson and the Grace team, you know, it really became a priority that we find a way to support the Taina Nature Reserve and support the families that made this huge step for conservation. And so one of the things that came out was that they really wanted to do a biodiversity survey. And we wanted to see, you know, let's find out, are there wild growers, gorilla populations there? What else is living in Taina? What type of biodiversity, you know, is benefiting from this protection? And so we worked with the community, we found some amazing funders, and we were able to do the first ever survey, Great Ape Survey in Taina in 2020, which was an interesting time. We can talk about that. But, you know, that led us to our second pillar. So our first pillar is really rewilding gorillas, the sanctuary for gorillas, where we hope that we can rewild any gorillas that are able at some point in the future. The second pillar, protecting forest habitats. So this forest survey was the first step in that. And then the third pillar, which I said was sort of in our roots in the beginning, we've just continued to Expand is engaging local communities. So we've always felt that in order for conservation to be successful, you have to work hand in hand with local communities. And so we again, do a lot of listening, a lot of conversation and really think about what are the threats that people are facing, what are the threats that wildlife are facing? Oftentimes they're the same or they're connected one way or the other. And then what can we do? What does the community want to do? What makes sense for them, what's culturally relevant for them? What actions can they take to help kind of address those threats in a way that also benefits people? So that's the third pillar. So we've got rewilding gorillas, protecting forest habitats and then engaging local communities.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: So the community engagement aspect, then what are the overlapping threats, if there are overlapping threats that both the gorillas and the communities are facing, and how is that being addressed? Because as we know all across the conservation world, you cannot expect anybody to care about nature, wildlife, anything, if their needs aren't being met. Like, like, how dare we even say that? You know, like, if you can't put food on the table for your family, like, why would they care about gorillas?
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: So, and, or any other wildlife across the world that's in the US that, that's, that's one constant we have across, across the globe. So what then? Like, what needs have been addressed that have come to you all? You know, is it food, is it poverty, is it employment opportunities, is it family planning, is it medical? What are the things that then the community needs that's been addressed and hopefully helped, that then helps gorillas?
[00:22:06] Speaker B: You're so right. And that's such a great question. And I think we always have to remember, no matter where we're working, people's needs have to be met first. So we do root a lot of our programs in Maslow's hierarchy. Right. So we have to make sure that our basic needs are met. Food, water, shelter, security, belonging. Right. We have to take care of those things first before we can ask people to go beyond that. And so a lot of our programs at Grace are designed to address those needs, but again, in a community informed way. So I could probably talk for hours about this, but I think, you know, a couple of examples that are really powerful to me. One of them is, you know, obviously I mentioned deforestation as a threat, so. And the forest in this region, our primary tropical forest, that if they're lost, they can't really ever be replaced. Right. The goal is that you don't Lose forests to begin with. I know there's great reforestation projects out there when we have to reforest. But ideally you want to stop it before it happens because you can't quite ever replace a primary tropical forest. And this is part of the Congo Basin. So, you know, it's an incredible area. Second largest contiguous rainforest in the world. The whole world depends on these forests, right? So it's in our interest as a global community to help support the local communities in protecting the forests and the wildlife that are there. That being said, population is shifting. So as insecurity is a threat and as different militant groups are in different areas, people move to try to avoid those groups, which means there's a lot of displacement. And that can be really challenging. Challenging. Poverty is really high in our region. We see a lot of folks that have lived there for a really long time, but still maybe don't have access to economic opportunity. So everything you mentioned, right, are things that we're working in some way to address. We also recognize we can't solve everything. So we're always looking for partners to help us in this. But one of the examples I think that you mentioned is employment. And I think that's something we're really proud of. So Grace, as I said, employs about 100 people in eastern Dr. Congo. And the estimate is that for every one person employed, six to eight people benefit. And so that's a huge kind of stabilization for that region. We're the largest employer in that region. And then you think about kind of trickling out from that. You know, there's sort of that economy, the domino economy or whatever you want to say, like we've got direct employment, but then other people are benefiting, right? So markets and, you know, seamstresses and business owners, right? All of those things are benefiting by providing stable employment for 100 people.
The other thing we've tried to do is work with women's groups. So we've got women's groups in the region that are super strong. They're incredible leaders, and they're truly the core of the community. And so we've asked them what would benefit you. And one of the things that has come from that conversation is improved cook stoves. So we're super proud of the work that we've done with the women's groups and helping to design an appropriate, easy to maintain, low cost, easy to create improved cookstove. And so that benefits women. It produces less smoke. So they have a cleaner cooking environment. It means less smoke inhalation, means less damage to your eyes and your skin. But it also means less firewood is needed to cook. So now you're looking at how we can reduce wood collected from the forest and hopefully help stop an immediate threat, which is deforestation, while also benefiting the women in the region. So to me, that's been really exciting. We've been able to build, I believe we're at almost 2,000 stoves now with thousands more to go. But it's also been cool because we've got women trainers. So they've gone through the program, they've learned how to make these stoves. And then part of the workshop or the program that they do is they make a little pledge that they'll go out and teach at least one more woman how to make a stove. And we're actually seeing that happen. So women are being viewed as leaders in the community and they're getting a chance to be trainers. And we also think that kind of social influence helps with stove adoption. So it's been really cool to see this program take off.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: That is incredible. Yeah, I had the privilege when I was in Nepal actually to see a similar program getting off its, you know, and that was all community led. The way the community is set up is different, but still it was really cool to see, to actually see one of these stoves. I would imagine it was similar enough, but it really does make a difference how a stove can reduce. So that, that particular example was conflict with tigers and other rhinos, elephants, you know, very dangerous wildlife. But still it's, it's, it's amazing how one solution can help in so many different ways. You know, like you don't think about that, especially in western or, or different societies, you know, where we can just go, turn, go to our kitchen, like turn it on. It's like actually a stove can mean the difference for a family, which is beautiful.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: It also is, you know, it's amazing to me because it's life changing for women too in terms of how much time they'd have to spend collecting firewood. Right. So the other thing that we've done is try to pair it with a sustainable woodlot, which is kind of a community based woodlot that we help create starter seeds and we partner with some local organizations to do this, but help create kind of starter seeds that then people can come and take and bring to their home and plant kind of on their compound and use as they grow their fast growing seedlings, they can use that wood as fuel wood instead of having to go collect wood from the forest. So kind of that Combination of the woodlots, the stoves, it's benefiting the forest, benefiting women's health. And then it's also changing the time in their day to be able to do other things and not have to be going into the forest, which can also be dangerous. So there's a security aspect to it. So there's just all of these components. And it's been interesting even seeing the evolution of this, because we started with one model and we tried it and we tested it and it didn't work. It was breaking. And so then, you know, they brought in some local engineers and they kind of looked at it again and the women adjusted it. And so even in that, it's not like we went in, it's not like the Grace educators went in and just were like, here's the model, here's what you do. You know, it's been an evolving process and constantly like listening, revising, listening, revising all along the way, which I think is super powerful and kind of a. A pattern we try to kind of create in every program that we do. Because it's so much bigger, like you said, it's so much bigger than just like cooking. Right. And like you're saying, like, I would never have thought about the conflict aspect of it, but you know, a stove solving for conflict, that's huge, right? And sometimes until we listen and we really learn, we're not going to know all of the deeper points, I guess, behind what we do.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: And just for context, so that we can maybe understand the culture a little better for any of us who haven't been to this area. And unfortunately, which we'll get into later, it is very hard to visit, just for lots of reasons. But is it a very patriarchal society or do women's have rights? Or could you maybe explain that a little bit like man versus women in the community?
[00:29:03] Speaker B: So again, I'm not Congolese, so I don't want to pretend that I'm an expert on the culture, but my understanding from our education team, so we have 10 educators that are from the local community and an education manager, and that's who I work really closely with. My understanding from them and from Jackson is that traditionally it tends to be a patriarchal society. So it very much tends to be that the man is the head of the household. But that being said, women still have a voice. And so it's just finding the ways for the women to use their voice and feel comfortable using their voice. And I think especially in Eastern Congo, helping to advocate for that gender equality is really important for our team. For Jackson especially, he's mentioned how proud he is that many of our staff at Grace are women, and we have female managers, so women in leadership positions. And that's a priority for him because gender equality is a major challenge in Dr. Congo. We know it's a challenge around the world, but especially in Congo, it's. It can be really tough to be a woman in Congo. So I don't want to take agency from the women there because they absolutely have a voice. They absolutely have an important and kind of irreplaceable role in conservation. But the society is still very much structured that it tends to be patriarchal. So we do create programs specifically for women to try to help them demonstrate their leadership on a broader scale. And one of the things we also do, which I love, is we celebrate International Women's Day every year. So I know that's not totally to your question, but I think it's such a cool program. Sometimes people are like, why is a guerrilla organization doing International Women's Day? But that's a whole part of it is this focus on gender equality and really the importance of women in conservation. And it was, again, kind of driven by the community and by our educators who said, yeah, we want to celebrate this. This a huge deal in Congo. It's a big event across multiple communities, and we want to be part of that and bring the conservation aspect to that. So this last year, I think we had 70,000 people come out in eight villages to celebrate International Women's Day with us. And so that's been an amazing kind of testament to the importance of engaging women in conservation decisions.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, absolutely. That is really cool. 70,000.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: 70,000.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: It was amazing. We were just, like, overjoyed. So. And that's men, women, children, all coming out to participate. So it's been incredible. And even over the years, as we've been kind of celebrating, that crowd has gotten, you know, bigger and bigger. But I think it was last year that we had a super, I think, momentous moment. And one of our educators, Sims, told me this story that he was in one of the villages, Kusuo, and they were doing speeches in the town center and kind of talking about the importance of Women's Day. And to kind of close that ceremony, one of the traditional leaders from the village called up the women's leader of the women's group and presented her with a ceremonial loincloth, which was offering, in a way, to say that, you know, we're equal and we're in this together. And we promise, you know, that we will respect you and treat you as equals moving forward. And so for Sims telling the story, he was just beaming, and the education team was beaming. And I think, to me, that's a direct testament to their dedication to kind of getting this message out and showing what women can do.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: I mean, on the flip side of this, though, like, anytime there's a cultural shift in any way, there's sometimes pushback. So. And I do like, exploring maybe some of the non sexy sides of this. So have you run into that, especially from like a quote unquote education standpoint or trying to expand? Has a team on the ground run into pushback from other people of the community or just a community in general, or how has that gone the negative?
[00:33:07] Speaker B: That's a great question.
I can't think of any examples. This is a good question for me to ask the team, and I can always come back to you.
I can't think of any examples where they were met with pushback or major resistance. But I also think that's a testament to their thoughtfulness and the way that they approach communities, especially new communities that we're working in. So I can think of two examples. One is a little bit more lighthearted, but, you know, we've started all these women's projects, and so we are doing the stove workshops. We also do small domestic animal training. So how to better care for small livestock so that you can kind of increase your livestock yield and better provide food for your families and protein and that kind of thing.
Those programs have been so successful that we've now had multiple men approaching the educators asking if they could also be part of the program, which I think is fantastic, because to me, it's basically, you know, what was considered sort of, you know, kind of an old term, but like, women's work. Now all of a sudden, the men are like, I want to be part of this. This is really cool. Like, I want to be able to raise livestock better. I want to be able to, like, have more, you know, produce to sell and market. I want to be able to do these things. So I don't know that it's pushback, but it actually has changed kind of the view of, like, what a women's role, a woman's role might be versus what a man's role might be.
The other thing I can think of that's a little bit more nuanced was we recently started work in several new communities, one of them being a little bit farther from grace. So this community is probably distance wise. I'd have to look. But I would say it's multiple hours drive from Grace, but it's a community that's really important for us in our future planning. And so there was some hesitation about how the Grace educators would be received there because it was their first time working there. And so there was a lot of work prior to going to try to understand who the community was, what background they have, what even, like, ethnic or tribal affiliation they have, what languages they speak. Because, like many places in the world, just because you're in a small region of a country doesn't mean you have everything in common, right? And history of kind of civil war and kind of a long history of violence in the region has led to a lot of xenophobia. And so there can be hesitation in going to a new area because there is.
There can be a lot of hate, right, if you're not from that specific ethnic group.
So there was hesitation.
And so we did multiple meetings with some partners in that region, trying to understand who was there, trying to explain, like, why we were going, and that really this was just a key area to engage in terms of guerrilla conservation. And we arranged for a large community meeting on the first trip that the educators took. And so when they got to the village of Burussi, they held this meeting, and over 300 people came to be.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: A part of it.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: It was incredible. I think, to me, the powerful. The most powerful thing is, you know, we've got 300 people in this auditorium, and the educators immediately were able to address the community in Kanandi and the local language. And as soon as they did, it was like applause erupted, and everyone in the building immediately felt trust because there was shared ethnicity, shared tribal affiliation, shared language. And they had members of the audience basically stand up and say, thank you. You are the first people that have ever come here to speak to us in our language. And we've never felt so seen, and we've never felt so included. And so I guess to me, that's a super powerful story to say, you know, come back to that point that, like, community engagement has to be from the actual community for it to be effective. And nobody, whether it was like me or someone else from another part of Congo or somebody else from another country, like, nobody could have connected to that community the way that our Grace educators did. And truly, they built trust in an instant because of being able to recognize and see each other. So, yeah, I hope that helps. It's. It's not a negative. It actually, to me, is the. Is the power of really being Thoughtful in your approach and what can happen when you do it right.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: That actually just gave me goosebumps. Like, it did.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Like, but me too, when I heard the stories.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Yeah, like, but that just goes to show, like, I feel. Oh my gosh. And this is what I'm so grateful for, this platform, because if anything, this for me has become an exploration of what conservation really is and how it's actually done. And I have many years of university education, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, like, but this is, this is real. Like, I feel like that story, what you just said, like that needs to be in every single conservation related course for everybody around the world. Like, we can have these passions. And one thing that I feel like you've demonstrated such so well so far is you've, you've said this entire time, it's the community I'm here supporting. Like, yes, I might be a white American, but I know my role and I just as much as part of the team here and I'm doing what I can to support them. And like, that was such a freaking gorgeous story. You know, like meeting them where they are. Yeah, that community meeting them where they are and they. Yeah, that was. Oh my gosh, that was amazing.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: It's truly a privilege and an honor to sit here every day. And I'm going to get emotional, but if I can tell you can get emotional, I'm a crier anyway. But, but if I can tell you another story to that, I think, you know, I mentioned Taina and I mentioned this Great Ape survey, right?
And I mentioned the year. So I said 2020, right? This had been such a long time coming and it was something that the community wanted so badly. And other people had tried, right? Like other organizations outside scientists, they had asked if they could have permission to survey that reserve and had been told no. The community wanted to do it, right? So we found the funding, we found the partners, we found folks and some of our scientific advisors to help do the training, right? All of this was lined up for us to do this incredible first time ever survey.
And then Covid hit. And so as we know, that changed the world for so many of us.
But it was a moment of pause to say, like, well, everything is saying that we have to stop, that we need to wait. This isn't safe. And so our executive director spoke with Jackson and said, you know, like, what do you recommend? Because the world is telling us we need to shut down. And Jackson said, absolutely not. We have waited too long. We have wanted this for too long. We cannot stop now. If we stop now, we'll lose the trust of the community, and everybody wants to do this. We have to keep going. And so we said, okay, then, let's figure it out. And so we did. And we figured out safety protocol and training and ways to do virtual training and all of these things to make this possible. And I think had we gone in with our, you know, kind of like American views or our global regulations and just said no, that would have been the biggest misstep we could have made for community trust and community engagement. But instead, we asked Jackson, and Jackson talked with the community and he talked with the leaders, and they said, we want to do this and we're going forward. Please help us make it possible.
They did. They did this incredible survey, and they were able to confirm the presence of browers gorillas and eastern chimpanzees and all kinds of amazing wildlife. And that science has continued. It was a huge success, a wild success, and it continues today. And now we're almost at the point of actually building, building some permanent biological field stations that these teams can operate from. We're getting camera trap images, including babies, baby gorillas on camera trap.
[00:41:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: And we're able to share the work of this community with the world, all because we didn't let our own bias and we didn't let our own kind of we think we know best cloud our judgment from doing what was right by the community.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: I got more goosebumps.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: I do, too. I mean, I know it's a podcast. Not everybody can say that I'm getting teary, but I mean, it's true. It's true. And the pride, right? And then the cool thing about that is that we get to feed that back. So then every year now, there's community meetings and over 100 representatives from those barrazas come. The biomonitors get to come, Jackson, the Muamis, and they get to see the work. They get to see our science advisors and the conservation manager there put together the visuals, put together the maps, put together the data that's showing what their work is going to protect, and then gets to share that with community. And the pride that's felt in that is like you just look at the photos and it's. It's tangible. Like, you can just see the energy and the excitement about the work that's being done. It's super cool. And pride is a big part of what we do. Like that pride and empathy has to be core to conservation. And I don't think that's always talked about either.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. Just Having local capacity to feel like you, you have the knowledge to be able to do this stuff, you know, because science and a lot of these things have felt so closed off and elitist. And if you look, you have to look a certain way and be from a certain area and have a certain level of education to do this. When before modern science and academia, like people just went out and studied nature because they wanted to. And now there's so much barrier to entry. So the fact that these communities now have this high level training to be able to do a biological survey in a massive piece of land, that is incredible. And. Oh my gosh.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, we have some moves.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: This is an amazing way to start the day.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Same. We have some amazing advisors at UC Davis that help us and it's just incredible to see what can be done over zoom. And same thing with the education team and our sanctuary staff. I mean, they are the best caregivers I've ever worked with. And I've worked in some really high profile zoos that have incredible caregivers too, but they are just incredible. And what can be done over zoom and capacity building for infield or kind of in country partners, I think is we're just getting started. You know, I think technology is helping us close that gap really quickly and it's really exciting to see and to your point, so important for helping us to remove barriers. So I'm, I'm hopeful for the future.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: And there are a couple other aspects of your work that I definitely want to get into. So, you know, one of the big pillars is. And the original one was rewilding these gorillas.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: So how exactly do you do that where you take a gorilla that has probably been through trauma that we can't even comprehend? You know, the illegal wildlife trade was confiscated, luckily ended up at Grace. And then what, what happens with that gorilla from that point on?
[00:44:20] Speaker B: It's been amazing to watch these gorillas knowing their kind of traumatic start to life to where they are now. So you're right, all of them were rescued from the illegal wildlife trade. Many of them have similar stories. You know, some were found stuffed in a bag, some were being kept as a mascot, some were kind of destined for the pet trade and kind of a variety of other things in between. Most of them were super young when they were rescued, so they did go through really traumatic experience. And I think anybody listening probably realizes that, you know, if you have a baby gorilla, it means that the rest of the family had been killed because there's no way that a silverback is going to let a baby be taken. So it basically means that for one baby, you've lost probably four to six or more gorillas in that process. So. And we know that only a few ever make it to us, right? So there's also that factor that there's some that won't be saved and that's really, I guess, sombering too. But for the ones that do, it's been really incredible. And I think it's been just a source of joy and wonder for so many of us to see how quickly, once they're introduced to other gorillas, they can recover. So probably one of my favorite stories is Lu Lingu and she actually has a whole, There's a whole 20 minute video on YouTube about her story if anybody's interested. But she was rescued. She's the youngest girl that's ever come to Grace. So she was rescued when she was about 18 months old. And she was brought to Grace really, really young. And so when she first came, she was introduced to two of our really incredible caregivers to sort of be around the clock for her just to make sure that she was okay. So Kambali and Devote were her dedicated caregivers and they were with her of the time, making sure she adjusted, helping her learn to play, helping her learn to eat, helping her kind of learn to climb and make sure her muscles were strong and all of the things that you need to do when you've first rescued a baby gorilla. But then as soon as everybody felt she was ready, they knew it was time to integrate her into the group. And so they started bringing her along. We have a large forest enclosure, so they would bring her along, the forest enclosure so she could see the other gorillas, the other gorillas could see her. They would bring her into the night barn so that again, she could see them, smell them, they could see and smell her. And then when that all felt comfortable, they finally did the introduction. And we have a gorilla egrace named Pinga. And Pinga has been a surrogate mom for many of the long, the young ones that have come in.
So they knew Pinga was going to be perfect for this job too. And so when they were ready, they basically, in the night barn, we have kind of almost like bedrooms and so they can kind of open a door, close a door, shift gate basically. And so Pinga was waiting in one area, Lulinga was in the other.
They basically everybody stood there with bated breath, opened the door and waited to see what would happen. And they ran to each other. And as soon as they ran to each other again, I'm gonna get emotional. But, you know, Pinga scooped Lulingu right up, put her right on her back just like a mama gorilla would, and quickly kind of took her under her arm, and that was that. And so it's just been amazing. And Lilingu's, I think, eight now. And so she's grown up with Pinga. She nested with Pinka just like a baby gorilla would. She's integrated into the group so well, and it's just been incredible. You know, once they are with gorillas, they don't look back. And so that's perfect. Right? That's what you want.
And to see her journey has just. I watched the video last night and just, you know, it just brings chills to see all of that. So then, yeah, so then having these forest enclosures, they can climb, they can play, they can forage. They've got other gorillas to socialize with. We have a young. Well, he's a silverback now. He came in young Kioma. He's grown up under Pinga's care. Now he's in charge of the group. So it's just been amazing to see how well they've done.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: And then is there a plan to reintroduce part of them or all of them or whatever? The plan is wild.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it's always been our goal. So it's never been done with growers gorillas before. We've never done.
No one has ever done a rewilding project with growers gorillas. So there's been a lot of planning.
Basically, our whole 10 years has been spent planning for a potential reintroduction. And so, yes, whoever can be rewilded, that's the goal.
I think we're getting even closer to that goal, which is really exciting. So, yeah, truly a momentous occasion for all of us and especially for the gorillas. We just are so excited that, you know, someday they'll get a chance to truly be wild again and hopefully have babies and help boost populations, which would be amazing.
[00:48:51] Speaker A: I mean, that's like the ultimate, ultimate goal, right at that point.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: It's true. Yeah.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: So once a. Yeah. So once a gorilla has been introduced to the resident group at the sanctuary, then are they pretty human, hands off at that point? They are living like wild gorillas with a little bit of an intervention with humans or.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, they are in our care and we're GFAS accredited, which is Global Federation for Animal Sanctuary. So they're in our care, so we have responsibility to make sure that they're healthy and that they're well cared for. So that does mean helping to supplement their diet, helping to do regular health checks, you know, making sure that everybody is safe. We do daily observations on everyone just to make sure, you know, everybody's acting normal. And we actually can get some really cool data on how they interact with each other in the group group too, which has been fun. Our caregiving team has been working with scientists at Disney's Animal Kingdom, and they've actually collected some really cool data about the individual relationships of each of the gorillas. And it's actually helping us to inform our understanding of growers gorillas as a species, which is cool. But that being said, we don't ever go in with the gorillas. So to your point, once they're all kind of in and integrated, then at that point we are hands off as much as we can be. There's interaction through protected barrier. So, for example, if we need to do any type of health check, the gorillas are participatory in their own care. They're trained so that they can do things like come up to the barrier and put their hands up or open their mouth or, you know, so the caregivers can look at their teeth. Like those sorts of behaviors are trained to help us provide them with the best care possible. But we aren't in with them or having direct contact with them at that point. So that's really important. And the good thing is gorillas want to be with gorillas. So I think, you know, where other animals sometimes really imprint on humans, gorillas don't tend to do that in the same way. So they do really just want to be with each other. So that's encouraging too.
[00:50:43] Speaker A: No, that's awesome.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: That being said, of course, our caregivers all have their favorites, so like our animal care as we all do. Right. So if you ask, like Del Moss, he's our animal care manager, his favorite is Amani. He's had to such a bond with her since she was a baby. He actually cared for her when she was a baby and then actually came with her to Grace.
We have Devote and Kabali that I mentioned. Devote. I think her favorite is Lilingu, just from that immediate kind of bond that she had with Lilingu as a baby. Kambali loves Jingala, you know, so I feel like there's definitely like we all have our favorites, but at the end of the day, we try to keep them as wild as Possible and then.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Shifting a little bit to the last pillar, and that is the habitat. So when I sat down with Katie or Edie and also talked about Grace, I was ecstatic to learn about this corridor project that you all are working on. Could you talk more about that? What is this? How much land are you looking at? Where is it at all those things? Because, as you said, like, we have to protect the land, because if the gorillas have nowhere to go, then they have nowhere to go. So could you talk about this corridor project?
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we are so excited about the corridor project. And this is another piece, again, that's being community driven, which I'm. I'm just thrilled by. So we have incredible support from Rainforest Trust and multiple zoo partners to help create this corridor, which is the first of its kind in our region. And so what it's going to do is actually connect the Forest of Tyena with Maiko National Park. And so it'll create an incredible corridor for grabbers, gorillas between both areas that will allow them to stay protected, allow them to move back and forth and hopeful, ensure genetic diversity in that population.
But what I think is cooler to me as the community person is that all of this is also speaking to a request from the community, who for generations have wanted to be able to secure their land rights to this region.
So this could probably be its own podcast because there's been such incredible work being done. But we are following what they call a free prior informed consent approach that's truly based in human rights. And so we have worked really closely with our project leads. Jackson is one of them. And then we have Omer Palaku, who is with Ugadek, which is the. Another conservation organization working in Congo. And so Jackson and Omer and their teams have actually gone to these communities and worked with them for almost a year now just on understanding the benefits and any, I don't know, cons too, I guess, to this project and asking them, you know, is this something they want to participate in? Is this something they want to be a part of and in what capacity? And the nice thing about free prior informed consent is that it's an ongoing process. It's iterative. So it's not like you do it one time and you're done. So you can also say, like, hey, here's information. Think about it. We'll come back, you know, hey, here's information. Do you want to wait and see what happens? Hey, here's information. Are you comfortable signing up now? Hey, you know, I don't want to do it. At all. Like, so it's, it's, the whole idea is to really focus on that consent piece that communities are making, you know, informed collective decisions that are best for them. So all of that is to say it's been an incredible process. The team started in a village of Bakucha, which we thought was the sort of seat of power for this region because again, there's traditional kings there. So we thought Bakucha was the place to start. And so Omair and Jackson went to Bakucha and that itself was like a multi day journey on foot to get there. They got there, they met with the community. The community was super excited to see them and talk with them. But in these conversations it actually turns out they said, you know, this isn't really the seat of power. If you want to get the blessing from the kings, you actually need to go to Ramah. And Jackson and Omer are like, oh, okay, why? Well, tell us more about that. And they said, no, Rama's always been our traditional seat, but years ago when we were under colonial rule, Rama was too far. And so we were basically just told that Bakucha had to be it instead because they could make a road there faster or easier and we could get to Bakucha, you know, so basically like a case of colonialization, changing the traditional seat of power and us as an organization not even being aware of that until we got there to have that conversation. And so then what do we do? We sort of. Of course, of course we'll go to Rama. Like, that's absolutely the right thing to do. Thank you for sharing that with us. Good to hear that you all are comfortable with this. But we will go to Rama. So that changed everything, changed the plans completely. It meant almost a 14 day, so about seven days in, seven days out, walk through super dense forest. A whole different starting point from where we originally were to get to Rama to meet with the communities there and meet with the Mwamis. But when they did, again, incredible. And this gives me chills. They met with one of the Muamis mummy, Eric, and he literally said something to the effect of, this is a blessing from the heavens. I've been wanting this for my community for many, many years. And you finally arrived and we knew when you came because you had gorillas on your shirt and you had, you know, a focus on conservation, we knew that you were legitimate and we knew we could trust you. And so it was again, this incredible moment. Jackson was emotional, Omar was emotional, and it's just been incredible to see what's happened from those conversations. So they worked with the teams, we actually trained trainers to go in to talk about free prior informed consent, to talk about these corridors, to talk about what it's going to do. And so the whole piece of this is that the community gets to decide how this corridor would be defined. And so what they did is they took a kind of GPS outline of the corridor and then from there worked with the community to map out for local. They're called community local community forest concessions. So they're basically on paper land rights for these community forest concessions that then once they're recognized in law, the community has full legal power to govern so they can say what happens in those forest concessions. So the other thing is it's a living landscape. So it's not like we're just kicking people out, right? Like they live there, they'll continue to get to live there, but from there they can decide, you know, here's the buffer zones, here's where we can do agriculture if needed, here's the areas that will stay protected for wildlife, where things like farming and hunting won't happen. And then we can from there help them explore sustainable livelihoods and economic alternatives from direct benefit from conservation. So anyway, the maps are incredible. They hand drew these maps on chalkboard first. Now they've gone out and gps them. The four families or family groups have identified the CFCLs. And we just signed the first free prior informed consent agreements with the communities this week. So it's happening, it's really exciting and we're that much closer to actually getting the land recognized by law. So it's, it's super exciting. And to me, again, that piece about, you know, traditional land rights, traditional governance is core to everything that we're doing and I think is so important when we think about reframing conservation.
[00:57:44] Speaker A: So how big then will this corridor be if and when it is completed?
[00:57:49] Speaker B: So between Taina and Usala, so I think Usala is a little over 220,000 acres, but between the two, it'll bring about 500,000 acres into protected care.
All in the hands of communities.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: So 500,000.
[00:58:05] Speaker B: 500,000 acres. Yeah. Incredible.
[00:58:07] Speaker A: Okay, I did not expect that number. I don't know number what I was expecting, but it wasn't that.
[00:58:12] Speaker B: I don't even know how to visualize that even. Right. I'm like 5,000 acres. What is that even equivalent to? But yeah, and it's incredible. So from a biodiversity perspective, it's huge. But truly from a human rights perspective, it's really exciting too.
[00:58:26] Speaker A: So since you are so involved with the community as well. And you brought up alternative livelihoods from conservation.
Since tourism is pretty much off the table, at least for the foreseeable future, with the civil wars and this and the unrest that's happening in the country, what is possible for alternative livelihoods in this area?
[00:58:51] Speaker B: That's a great question. It's something we're still exploring, if I'm being honest. You know, I think there are a lot of organizations that depend heavily on tourism, and that's never been a model that's worked for Grace. So in some ways, although we would love tourism as an opportunity in the future, it's also been an opportunity for us to think differently and really think about, again, how can we meet needs for communities and create economic empowerment at the same time. So, you know, some of it can be smaller scale, but finding the right markets. So, for example, things like mushroom farming or tree. Tree farming, right? Like there's a need for reforestation in other parts of the country. So can you help create native tree lots that could then be supply for other reforestation projects? Or could you help women grow mushrooms or tea or coffee in a sustainable way that could then be, you know, brought to market? And so I think the other piece that was really important, especially in usala, when we were talking with the communities, the team reported back, you know, that the. The goal is really just to be able to provide for your family and send their kids to school and be able to send their kids to secondary school. Like, people aren't asking for millions and millions of dollars. You know, like, it's really just again, back to basic needs. Like, what are the basic needs to help thrive? And we're actually working on how you measure human thriving. But, you know, what are the needs that need to be met? What are the things that you want as a community to be able to say, yes, I feel like I'm thriving? And so we're still in that conversation. But it could be things like sustainable agriculture. It could be. There's a lot of work in the space right now, kind of globally, and I'm not an expert in this, but there's a lot of work in sort of biodiversity credits and carbon credits, so reimbursing people for protecting forests that the entire world needs.
And then, yeah, there's a lot of other opportunities that we can think about, I think conservation science, right? So we have a plan, as far as I understand, to do similar biomonitoring in USALA that we're doing in Taina. So that would employ many people through that process. So we're still figuring it out really is the short answer.
But as one of my mentors said, you know, if it was easy, people would be doing it already. So I think that's the other thing is we're learning as we go and trying to look at best practices from around the world to help us, you know, think about ideas and customize for Congo.
[01:01:10] Speaker A: And I think that this brings up something that I'm sure a lot of people have a question about, which we've, we've touched on briefly here and there, but this brings up full front, is how has Grace continued in a civil war, war torn country? What has the civil unrest done to anything you can speak about to like, have any of your colleagues over there been affected by this?
How has Grace continued in the face of literal violence in the country?
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really valid question and a sensitive question. And I think again, I want to be sensitive in how I respond because I don't want to speak for an entire country. I think that unfortunately, the narrative around Congo sometimes can be so negative and it breaks my heart because, yes, we have to address the realities of what that's happening in certain parts of Eastern Congo, but there's so much more to it than that. And there's so much hope and there's so much joy and there's so much perseverance and dedication and like vision for a better life. And so I think our team is just incredible in the way that they work through that. And so, you know, I always hope that the story is focused and positive and in a realistic way, not a toxic way, but, you know, like focus on the good people are doing because there's a lot of it and there's so much good happening at Grace and around Grace. So what I will say is, you know, we are very fortunate. I mentioned we operate under the blessing of the traditional kings. So operating in that landscape under their governance has been really key for Grace success over the years. Mwamistuka is also, not only is he a leader in the region, but he's actually one of the lead mommies of all of Congo and he sits on a lot of the Security Councils and he has a lot of respect in the region and nationally. And so operating with his blessing has helped to protect Grace.
So much so that, you know, at times Grace has become a safe haven for community members. So there's times, if there's been insecurity in the region, actually community members have moved towards Grace because they know that it can be a safe space in the midst of otherwise a potentially violent landscape. So we continue to hope that's the case. You know, I want to say, like, knock on wood or something, but, you know, that doesn't. That sounds too trivial. But, you know, we continue to hope that that stays the case because of the trust that we built, because of the community buy in, because people know the benefits that the organization brings and because we have that blessing from the Kings. So I think that's helped us. I'm not going to say our team hasn't been affected, they absolutely have. There's been times that have been more challenging than others. But we also really listen to Jackson and his guidance. He also sits on a lot of the security councils. He's always got kind of a pulse on what's happening and we have lots of different protocol in place, if anything, you know, were to become more heightened in our region. So, yeah, we've had times that it's been closer to us than others, but overall, I think we have been very fortunate because of those relationships with the community that we've stayed pretty secure. What I will say again, to Jackson's credit is at times where people have been displaced, he's found ways to help support them. So he's found, like, for example, we needed a second forest habitat built. And so he knew at one of these times that people needed employment, they had been displaced, they needed employment, and so we were able to find the money to help provide jobs for people. They were temporary jobs, but they were jobs to help construct the forest habitat in a time when jobs weren't otherwise available. So he's super, super insightful and super focused on, you know, how we give back. And he always says, you can't look after the gorillas better than you look after the people. And I feel like that just continues to be our guiding kind of mantra, insecurity or not.
I don't know if that answers everything for you, but yeah, yeah, I just.
[01:05:32] Speaker A: I just wanted to address it because.
And that is one of the big narratives that we hear about, about this country pretty much outside of it. And that's why this, this story is so beautiful, because it is like, look at all this incredible good that happening when all we hear is doom and gloom. But look at what's. What's happening. Like, actually, this amazing conservation story is unfolding and a lot of us have never even heard anything about it. We probably didn't even know gorillas were there. We didn't know Browers gorillas even existed. But then look at all of this beautiful work that's happening around it. When all we hear about is war, you know, it's pretty much nowadays that's all we hear about is war. So to know that something great is happening, I wanted, I wanted to essentially get the elephant out of the room. Like, we all know, we know that this is a very real thing that's happening there. So what is the actual story? So thank you for answering that. I'm really appreciative of that.
[01:06:37] Speaker B: And like, sickly, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to downplay it. Like, obviously there's times where been more challenging and we have protocol in place for our staff and you know, staff, staff safe. Staff safety is our number one priority. So if there's any time where we didn't feel it was safe, then we have a, you know, protocol in place for what to do. But logistically, if anything, for us it's just been more of a, like a supply chain issue, you know, because we have that protection because the community is there. If anything, it's been like cost of operating is increasing. Right. Cost of operating is already sort of high.
And then supplies and things that we need to function can be delayed or like it's a five hour. So just to give you an idea, it's a five hour drive up a mountain on a really windy, really muddy, really rocky road from the biggest city, like where we get most of our supplies.
It's five hours to grace. So if at any point there's roadblocks or like challenges along the way like that can hinder our operations. So we have to be really thoughtful about planning ahead and getting creative in where we source things from and you know, trying to source from the local markets as much as we can. But you know, I think if anything that's been our biggest challenge recently is more just the logistics of things. And again, Jackson's team is incredible.
[01:07:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome to hear.
So I guess looking ahead, we just did a fantastic job going through the past and the future where you guys are currently working on. So what's the future? What is the, what's the bigger goal we're working towards? Are we hoping we're moving to our big north star that we're heading to? What is that?
[01:08:14] Speaker B: That's a great question and I think it's one we ask ourselves all of the time. I think to me, I would say, you know, our, our vision is a world where growers, gorillas are no longer threatened and they're a source of pride for the Congolese people.
And that We've created a world where people and wildlife can coexist and thrive. Right.
So, you know, I think rewilding is a huge piece that's in the near future we're really excited about and to be able to say that our mission has come full circle. We've been able to actually rewild some of these guerrillas. I think when that happens, it's going to be a milestone. That will be moment, a milestone, a momentous occasion, however you want to say it, a celebration for the ages. Right. So I think that's the first one that we're really looking towards in hopefully the near future. And then I think the forest protection is another one. Right. So just this ability to say, you know, 500,000 acres of primary tropical forest are protected and in the hands of traditional and local communities, the rightful hands of traditional and local communities. And we're protecting cultural sites, sacred sites, you know, biodiversity hotspots, all at the same time. I mean, to me that is like a win, win. And that perfect mixture of that perfect intersection of people in conservation and then the community work, the ability to reach more people. Right. So this year I said we're on track to reach. We reached about 70,000 people through women's Day. We're on track to reach about 100,000 people total with our messaging this year. And we're just getting started. And that to me is exciting. We've expanded in the last three years, we've expanded to eight villages.
And I just continue to see that growing and not only growing wider, but deeper. Right. Because we know the longer that we're with communic communities, the more trust we have, the more conservation awareness and knowledge they have, the more inspiration they have for, you know, changing behavior. And we see that over time. We're committed over time to that long term behavior change which ultimately means better livelihoods for people. So I think, you know, we're headed, we're, we're a decade young and a decade old. Right. Like we're just, in a way, we're just getting started. And I just feel like this is, we've grown so much in a few years and we're just, just like on a rocket ship to the moon at this point.
Yeah, yeah. I think I'm so excited to see what the next decade is going to bring.
[01:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exciting. And I'm happy to now know all of you to follow your journey, you know, and share updates as they come along and yeah, who knows what the future of rewadology is and how we can continue Sharing Grace's story in the future and then shifting to you.
I mean, clearly you have a lot of passion. I mean, you've been part of this organization now for 10 years in various way, shapes and form, and you're still doing this. So what gets you up every day? Why are you still doing this? Why are you still working with Grace? Growers, gorillas?
You're not shifting to another animal, another species, another project?
What gets you up and excited and still doing this day after day?
[01:11:16] Speaker B: Oh, it's a tough question.
I think it really is. People. You know, I think I have an advisor and a man I really admire, Sam Berner, and he's worked with Grace for many, many years. But he said after one of his trips to Grace years ago, many of us get involved for the grant umbrellas, but we stay because of the people. And, you know, back to my story, right? Like, everything I did kept coming back to, like, but how are we going to encourage people to care? How are we going to encourage people know, like, how does this relate to people? And I think that's still the case. Like, I just care so much about the people I care about. My colleagues, my colleagues in Congo are some of the most driven, kind, dedicated, passionate people I've ever had the privilege to work with. And so just getting up every day and knowing there might be something little I can do today to help make their life a little easier gives me energy, right? Gives me purpose. And I think a lot of us get in this field because of purpose, right? Like, we want to feel like we're helping make the world a better place. And so just knowing that there might be some small thing today that could help someone, I think is what motivates me to do this every day. And how lucky we are. Like, how lucky to be able to come to work every day, work, you know, and be like, wow, like, this is part of something bigger. This is part of something more meaningful. So I don't always feel like I deserve to sit here, but I do think that it's such an honor to sit here, and I think that's what drives me.
[01:12:46] Speaker A: Oh, you deserve to sit there, girl. You put in the time.
[01:12:49] Speaker B: You have to work.
[01:12:50] Speaker A: Clearly this is what you were meant to do. The amount of passion exuding off of you is real. You don't have that passion for no reason, you know?
[01:12:57] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:12:58] Speaker A: Clearly, you're doing what is in your heart. So. And I love asking this question I ask everybody that comes on, what advice or message would you like to share with everyone? Listening.
[01:13:11] Speaker B: Can I give two or a couple of things. Of course you can, because clearly I like to talk, you know that.
Okay, so for advice for how to help Grace or gorillas, I would love to offer that because I think that's something that sometimes we still don't always connect the dots on. Right. Like, it's easy to think, oh, gosh, I'm in North America and, you know, how does that relate to gorillas and what could I possibly be doing or how could I be connected to them? But, you know, one piece I will say is we actually all carry something in our pocket every day that is more connected to Congo than you might think, and that's our cell phones. So a lot of the minerals, a lot of the things that we use to make electronic batteries are being mined in countries like Congo. So every time you recycle your phone or your small electronics or every time you wait to get a new device, you're actually helping to reduce the amount of mining that's necessary, which then in turn protects people and habitat. So one thing I will say is if you're interested in gorilla conservation or interested in making a difference, just recycle your, your electronics. You know, that's so helpful for a global kind of impact. If we're all doing that, there's some great organizations out there. One of them I'll shout out is EcoCell. We've partnered with them for many, many years and they do great work to directly benefit primate conservation.
And the other thing I'll say is just be an informed consumer in general. Right. So, like, things like sustainable coffee, sustainable tea, a lot of that is grown in central Eastern Africa. So, like, thinking about what we're choosing and how we're choosing it and how that can impact our neighbors, our friends, our global community, I think is something I would consider too, aside from how to help gorillas and advice on what to do in conservation, I would say kind of general advice, I guess, find the thing that you keep coming back to and make that your purpose. Right. Like, I talked about spiders and everybody I know is like, you're a spider girl. Why are you in gorilla conservation?
But I always see spiders. I've always loved spiders. I've always had this, this kind of fascination with spiders. And I feel like it's been an interesting journey for me because obviously not everybody cares about that. So I see spiders and I think, like, wow, these animals are so special and they're so misunderstood. And then I tell somebody about them and generally, like, I get this wow moment for most people where it changes their perspective. And so I guess what I'm saying is like the unexpected can be that like jumping point to something so meaningful, so personal and like a connection point you wouldn't expect. So what's that thing in your life that you're like passionate about, that you want to talk to everybody about, that you want to share with people even if people think it's weird, like, even if they think that you're kind of a little like off your rocker, like, what is it? And then how can you use that as a own it, you know, be unique, you have so much to offer and then how can you own it as a chance to make a connection with somebody else? Because odds are somebody else has another thing they want to share with you. And I just feel like that power of conversation and shared understanding and community is so needed right now. And it could be something as little as a spider or a gorilla or you know, a travel story or whatever it is that can help you find understanding with someone else.
[01:16:24] Speaker A: That's fantastic advice. I couldn't agree more.
[01:16:28] Speaker B: What's your spider like? What's your thing? Brooke?
[01:16:31] Speaker A: Oh my love. The loves of my life. Oh, big cat. Hands down. People on the show just like, she won't shut up about this.
[01:16:39] Speaker B: Love it.
[01:16:40] Speaker A: That's my thing. That's my thing. So that's why I went to conservation tourism is because it's essentially a way to monetize nature and put a dollar sign on our most conflict ridden species. So I was in the zoo world for a long time as well. That was my background. Yeah, I was in non profits. I've done a lot of that kind of work. But then I really found my calling in conservation tourism world. I'm a very adventurous person, so it just makes sense. But I was like, let's get on a plane and go somewhere wild. I've not been to Europe, but I've been in deep Pantanal. I've been to, I don't know, Montreal, but I was like, but have you seen Victoria fall?
[01:17:17] Speaker B: You know? Yes, I love that. I love that.
[01:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's my thing. But yeah, if we all find our purpose. And actually Gladys, who was on from, I know you know her, the amazing guerrilla conservationist in Uganda, she had a very similar message and it was like, if you find your purpose and you find your calling and you go down it, everything else will fall into place. Even the hard days, the people that you need will magically appear in your life if you just follow your purpose and your calling. So she even had examples of just like how right when you need it, the right people will show up if you just follow what your heart told you to do. Yeah. And I could not agree more. Yeah, some days are a lot harder than others, I'll tell you that. But.
[01:18:07] Speaker B: And it takes perseverance, but. And gosh, Dr. Glass, what an icon. She is just. Yeah, she is just incredible. So if anybody to take advice from, it's her. So, yes, I love that. And it's true. I mean, you do. Yeah. The doors open and things fall in place and you look back and go, oh my gosh, I didn't think I was going to be here. But like it all makes sense now. You know, you don't always see those doors maybe as you're walking through them, but looking back you're like, oh, there it was. There was that moment. And that's pretty cool too.
[01:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
So if somebody wants to follow Grace or get in touch with you or the organization, see what you're up to, support however best they can. What are some of the best ways?
[01:18:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So you can follow us on social media at Grace Gorillas. We're on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and X.
Our website is gracegarillas.org and then, yeah, I encourage people to just reach out to. I'm always happy to chat anything gorillas, anything forest community. Right. Like, I just, I love all of it. So, yeah, please reach out. Please subscribe to our newsletter.
And then as I mentioned, you know, just keep Gorillas top of mind. Like even sharing posts, whether it's our organization or another organization. Dr. Gladys organization is incredible. They actually have the best coffee. Like some of the best coffee I've ever had. So if you haven't ordered coffee from her organization, go do it. You know, I think we all benefit, right? Like we're a global community, so any type of support for Great Ape gorilla conservation, it benefits all of us. So follow your favorite organization on social media, share their posts, tell your friends and family and then think about your choices. All of those, those pieces really can make a huge difference.
[01:19:46] Speaker A: Yes. I cannot agree more. And that coffee is so funny. The Gladys team just reached out and sent. It's ready for sale and lots of markets around the world. And so I literally just updated Rewild's website yesterday with the links to order guerilla conservation copies.
[01:20:04] Speaker B: Oh, I'm so happy.
[01:20:07] Speaker A: Literally go buy it all.
[01:20:08] Speaker B: Go buy.
[01:20:10] Speaker A: Lawrence and Alexis, email me. They're like, hey, we have the links.
[01:20:12] Speaker B: Can you put that?
[01:20:13] Speaker A: I guess I can't put that up. So how funny that is.
[01:20:16] Speaker B: Love it. The timing is perfect. Seriously, I am not being paid for this. It is so good. So yes, we had an awesome opportunity. I think it was last year we were able to bring the team education team to Uganda and so we were able to meet them there and do like a week long training and just, you know, get to see each other again after many years in person. And we had so much fun. And then we got to go to the cafe, the Gorilla Conservation Cafe in Entabay and oh my gosh, just sit on the lake and like drink that coffee and it'd be so good. And then also knowing you're helping communities, helping save gorillas, like incredible, incredible experience. I will always remember that moment and I brought so many bags home with me. But then I got so excited that you can order it online. So I'm so happy it's on the rewildology website. Definitely check it out.
[01:21:02] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Well Lori, you are incredible. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I can't wait to share Grace's story, your story, Guerrilla Conservation with everyone. So thank you for sitting down with me today.
[01:21:15] Speaker B: Thank you for the opportunity. It was such a treat to talk with you and thank you for all you do just to share these voices and stories about conservation in so many different capacities and the work you do to feature so many amazing people out there. It's just an honor. So thank you for your time.
[01:21:31] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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