[00:00:00] Speaker A: Oh, am I glad this episode made.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: It into the top hits of 2024.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: It's not every day that we meet legends in conservation, and I include Carolina in that list.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: I loved hearing her stories about the very rocky start of Tompkins conservation in the 90s and what it was like to work with the late Doug Tompkins. I truly admire the massive projects she.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: And the NGO Rewad in Chile are.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Tackling, and I'm positive you'll feel inspired and ready to tackle 2025 after listening to this one.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Located in the southernmost region of South America, Patagonia spreads for a breathtaking 260,000 square miles. It is characterized by stunning mountains, temperate rainforests, fjords, glaciers, stepped grasslands and a unique array of wildlife. The region is also a flagship location of a famous clothing brand with the same name.
The founder of North Face and Espirit, Doug Tompkins and his wife Christine Tompkins, former CEO of Patagonia, have left a lasting legacy in Argentina and Chile, which we are going to explore today.
Welcome to Rewildology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today is World Rewilding Day and we're celebrating by releasing this very special episode with Carolina Morgado, the Executive Director of Rewilding Chile.
Carolina met Doug in the early 90s while working for a rafting company in Chile. At that meeting, Doug encouraged her to become an environmental activist to oppose a new dam that would destroy the very river she was selling tours on. Doug and Carolina stayed in touch and in the mid-90s, Doug asked her to become a part of Tompkins Conservation to work on important conservation and activist initiatives for For Chile.
Now, Carolina is the Executive Director of Rewatting Chile, a fully independent NGO that branched from Tompkins Conservation. Along with Rewatting Argentina, Carolina and I explore so many topics, including her serendipitous meeting with Doug Tompkins and her early career with Tompkins Conservation, the evolution of conservation and activism in Chile, the current state of Patagonia, how Rewilding Chile and the root of the parks came to be, and the top projects they are working on today.
Be sure to subscribe to this show wherever you are listening. Leave a rating and review so that more people can discover the show and share this episode with someone you think might enjoy today's discussion.
If you share this episode on your social media, be sure to tag rewildology and Rewilding Chile. We would love to hear from you.
All right, friends without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Carolina.
Well, hi, Carolina.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Thank you so much for sitting down with me today and taking me through the exploration of this incredible ecosystem and this part of the world that I have totally fallen in love with and talking about the conservation of it as well. But before we get to today and the incredible work that you've led, you've done, and you're in the middle of Take Me to the Beginning, where does your journey begin that led you to today?
[00:03:46] Speaker C: Well, Brooke, thanks so much for inviting us, for inviting rewild in Chile and me to this really interesting and fun podcast.
My journey begins in Santiago de Chile. I'm 100% Chilean. I was born there and I lived most of my life there, except for I. I've been a traveler all around the world. I'm trained as a special ed teacher. That was like what I said in university has nothing to do with what I'm doing today. As I said, I lived in Canada for a couple of years. I was also a flight attendant and I worked on trips around the world for three years. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so I and I and I worked after finishing university and all of that, I worked for. For in an adventure travel tourism for a while. And that's how I met Douglas Tompkins. And that's how I'm here. Yeah, I worked for a few years in a rafting company doing trips in the. What is our Grand Canyon here, which is the Class 5 river that now it's dammed, which is the Biobio river, and then the Futalufu River. And the first trip I ever saw was to Douglas Tompkins. So that's how I met him. And he told me right away that the river that I was working on, you know, leading these trips and all of that, I wasn't a river guide. I was in charge of the office was being threatened by dams and that I should join a group that was being created to oppose those dams. So he also saw in me what I didn't see at that point, that I was an activist at heart. And that's how our story began. We became friends with dad Tompkins and then after five years of continuing conversation and he supporting us in this group that we created with many Chilean activists, I came to work with the organization.
Wow.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Talk about just a twist of fate.
What made you.
Because having done lots of different careers in my path, it sounds like yours is even more extreme. Why did you decided to work for an adventure travel company that led you to meet Doug was there like a Moment that you're like, I need to go back to Santiago, or for you, why did that part of your journey begin?
[00:06:04] Speaker C: Because I think that when I, you know, I finished university, because I always believed that whatever you start, you have to finish. So I did that. But I never, you know, I never had a plan that, you know, I should do this and that I was always open to opportunities and traveling was an opportunity. And then a friend of mine, they decided to open a rafting company, which was just beginning, in Chile, and they offered me the position to open the office and just get the whole thing going. And so I accepted. I thought it was, you know, it was related to nature, and it allowed me to get to know Chile because I knew the world much better than Chile at that point in my life. So, you know, just connecting with Chile's nature, that really attracted me. So I accepted that position. And then, you know, life only makes sense when you look back. So, yeah, it all makes sense.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Always 2020.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: Yeah, so it all makes sense now why that happened, how I met the Tompkins.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Do you remember when Doug Tompkins came into your office to book that rafting trip?
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Yes, I remember because as I said before, it was the day we opened the office to the paralytic, you know, because, oh, my gosh, we rented the office. We route out the programs, you know, with the. With the owners. One of them was a river guide, a Peruvian river guide. We published them in the newspaper, but there was no Internet at that time. So, you know, you publish the ads in the newspaper, and who walks in? You know, we open the doors. It was actually our first client. Not the second, not the third. It was the first trip we ever did. It was the first client. So of course I remember. And I thought, you know, I met him and I thought after. Well, after I knew what his plans were in Chile, I thought, I want to work for this guy. But it took some time, you know, because I was engaged in and committed to this other thing. And getting to know him little by little, allowed me also to understand what activism, conservation meant. So things develop with time.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Okay, So I think maybe now to help set the stage for us to understand, like, all of these layers. So first, what year was this? And then maybe could you then describe, like, the connection between the Tompkins and the famous brand that he started and why, and then also, like, the conservation work. So maybe could you just like, explain that timeline a little bit for us so we can see the big picture?
[00:08:49] Speaker C: Sure, sure. So, so basically, I met Doug Tompkins in 1990.
Or maybe at the end of 1990. And I started working for them, Doug and Chris Tompkins in 1995.
When I met Doug, he wasn't with Chris yet. Doug was at that time had already sold Esprit and very, very early Esprit, you know, the apparel company. And very early in his life he had created the North Face, the brand. It was a guide service in California when he created, but that he saw very early in his life. He had come to Chile all along his life to, you know, to do, to ski, to do first descents because he was a Class 5 kayaker. And so he was when he decided to quit his business career and you know, and I said, like he used to say, pay the rent for living in his planet. He thought about Chile and he came to Chile looking for land. And, and that's how it all started. In the middle of this, he got together with Chris Tompkins. Chris was one of the founders. I mean, from early beginning he worked in Patagonia Inc. The company. He was the CEO for 20 years of Patagonia Inc. And I guess when they met, she also decided to give a shift in their life and they moved to Chile, to southern Chile. So when I met Doug, I met him alone. And when I started working with him, he already, already was together with Chris Tompkins. And I was hired as their personal assistant.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, how incredible. So you guys stayed in touch for 5ish, 4, 5ish years before.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Before you actually started working with them. And so was it then 95 when they relocated to Chile, was around that?
[00:10:38] Speaker C: No, no, no, no. It was probably 93, 9306. So that was coming and checking out and land or. I don't. He. He didn't have. When he came to Chile. He didn't come to Chile with a plan, I am going to create or help create national parks. This. He. It was also part of his evolution in terms of conservation. So when he came to Chile, for sure, he, he was a guy who used to surround with him like he used to do with the first circle. So he was meeting with environmentalists in Chile and he wanted to know, you know, and he was pretty, pretty quickly, he was in the, in the epicenter of everything that was going on in Chile. And because I started to work in this company and this river was in threats of being damned, I also, he actually connected me with environmental movement in Chile. So he would come to Chile and we would do meetings. He was trying to support us, you know, very strong environment, A small, but a strong Environmental movement. And actually, because I was working in these rivers and river rafting, you know, anytime I stopped in the south of Chile, where he has his base in Chile, I stop by and say hi. So we continue this. It was a relationship, friends, colleagues in terms of activism. And he also supported us in this group we created that. It was called the BOB Auction Group. He supported with full page ads in the newspaper so Chileans would know what was going on in this river. You know, it was the first river conservation group in Chile. So it was new. It was new to Chile.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Wow. Talk about grassroots conservation activism. That's incredible. And I think this might be a great time to ask this particular question because it sounds like even Doug.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: As.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: He became more and more, you know, just aware of the country and as you became more involved in conservation as well, that maybe the top conservation threats and issues became apparent to you. So what are those, what are the big things that rewatting Chile that you've been involved in? And have those changed since the 90s? Have things gotten worse? Have things gotten better? So maybe just give us a current state of conservation in Chile and maybe if that's changed in your, you know, three decades doing this.
[00:13:14] Speaker C: Well, as I said, I was, I was, I was much younger, of course, I was young at the time I met Doug. And then I surrounded myself with the environmental movement because we started this group. He also introduced us to other American foundations who supported, you know, supported us financially. Because all the environmental movement in Chile is supported abroad. In Chile, the law to do environmental philanthropy is from last year. It's so recent, you know, and it's very limited. So he helped us with that. And I said the biggest issues were, you know, very common to an underdeveloped country, you know, where your economy is based on natural resources. So big issues at that time in Chile was the beginning of the salmon aquaculture business, especially here in the south. That is with very incipient. But you could see the effects that that industry was having and would have in the future in the environment. And another was, of course, the industrial siliculture, the plantation, the plantations of pine and eucalyptus with eradication of the native forest to make wood chips to export. So that was super big in Chile. And I think those were the main issues. Of course, mining in the north, you would see it less here in the south where dad and Chris came to work. But I think the issues of an extractive economy remain in Chile, remain. But of course, as climate change, it's more evident. I think climate change arrived because Extinction crisis has been going on always, but it's not visible. Right. But climate change really came to show us what was really going on in the planet. And that of course has brought more awareness in a country like ours, has brought more conservation.
I think Doug and Chris have been, they have inspired the other Chileans to protect land small scale, medium scale, mainly for private parks. Different than what they decided to do to donate all their land, but still is conserving land. So are we in a better situation? Yes and no. Yes and no. Because still, you know, our country is based on an extractive economy. But I think in the, in the, in the part that we are better is the awareness in people. But at the same time problems are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So it's a hard question to answer.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I know that feeling. It feels like an uphill battle all the time. Like every day it's like just we have to celebrate the little wins to keep us going.
[00:16:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: So then today what are the pillars then that you are focusing? What are like the top issues that rebought in Chile is like we have planted our flag on these things. These are what we're going to work on to make better.
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Yes.
Our mission and vision, it's big scale conservation. It was Doug and Chris and we remain as a legacy foundation, you know, the continuation of their work in Chile. So our mission begin, it remains as big scale conservation, as big as we can get. And we are focused in the territory which we call the root of parks of Patagonia, where 91% of the acreage protected under national park is located. So you would say, well this is great, there's no problems. No, there are still problems, there are still threats. And we know for sure that if we want to have an impact in Chile and in the planet, we need to consolidate these ecological corridors in the biggest form of conservation. What we are innovating, I would say different than when Doug and Chris were working full time in Chile, is that we continue to work with Tompkins Conservation, with Chris's vision. We share everything with her and she's in our board, she's the president of our board, is that we are focusing also on the ocean, on creating coastal marine parks. No take zones. We haven't succeeded. We started very recently. Our marine program started three years ago. But we know for sure that it's a must if we want to create this Greenland for the planet, which is the rural parks of Patagonia.
And the other thing which is very important and we've always done it, but we Just call it different. Today it's rewilding. We've always done ecological restoration, which has been called, but of course rewilding, it's a term that is much more dynamic in its approach to ecological restoration. So one of our big goals is to take rewilding at a country level and that it is embraced by Chile as the way to do conservation in Chile. You know that it's focusing not only on a specific species or places, but more in processes and in accomplishes complete ecosystems wherever you're working in conservation. So big scale conservation and rewilding as a form to embrace this are our biggest goals.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Amazing.
And one of the big things you just brought up, and I want to spend some time on this, is the root of the parks because, wow, is this like one of the coolest initiatives I've ever heard of.
Not only is it cool, but it sounds insanely difficult. So how in the world did you all start with the establishment of national parks? Did it start with like a private land that was then protected into like a conservation easement type thing or what was step number one to root of the parks?
[00:19:32] Speaker C: Well, step number one was buying land. The thing is that when Doug and Chris arrived in the south of Chile in 1993, they established themselves here.
So he was showing this land in the middle of the fjords area with no road access. And when he bought the land and started flying around because he was a pilot, he realized that adjacent land was owned by absentee owners.
Big, big chunks of land, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of acres that were bought in the 1920s, speculating that eventually there would be a road there and there would be lumber exploitation because it's really all growth forest. This, thank God, never happened.
And still there are no roads. But going back to your question.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: What.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: Was the first thing to do to create a park? It's to buy big extensions of land. And not only that, but because of the flying, because of the throughness, the thoroughness in planning this. It's also mapping out the territory and see the opportunities of big scale because it's something you don't find, especially in this really rich biodiversity area. And also with time, identifying public land, never to buy public land, but as a way to approach the government and say, I want to donate this to create a park. How about if you join with public land? And basically that has been our approach, it's donating, but triggering bigger scale conservation with adjusted public land. The other thing that is super important when you create a park or when you're in the process is to figure out your borders, your limits. So your land, when you do your title study, you want to have super clear with your neighbor which is park and which is neighboring land. Because, you know, this is really like faraway land. Some of the people that. Where our neighbors didn't have titles, so because they were, they went there in different colonization processes along the years. And so we helped those neighbors get their titles. So there will be clarity in the borders of the park and in the borders of the private land, because parks need to be protected and respected. So that was. I'm talking about 30 years of work. So that was, you know, that was really long. So this was the case in Pumalinda Glass Tompkins National Park. And we ended up triggering. It's a park that is 1 million acres of which of which we donated.
Not so good in the acres part, but of which we donated probably 700,000.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: Incredible.
[00:22:27] Speaker C: Well, this part of Chile, so you understand where the Rudolph park is, it's, you know, you have to cross by ferry. So it's the last. It's the last third of Chile that it's. It has more remoteness precisely because it doesn't have highways you have to take. You know, it's a combination of ferry and roads. So I guess that also led to protect a big part of this route of parks. When we started working in this section of Chile, there were already 12 national parks. And we have helped create so far, seven additional national parks. And this year we will be creating another one with the current administration.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Everything you guys have done has been just so inspiring and incredible, but the root of the parks is the one that blows me away the most. Because just one acquiring the land, and then every single thing that comes along with that, like you said, like title delineations, you know, who owns what, getting the government involved. I mean, you could own this land, but then what if the government said, no, we don't want this to be a national park? Like, there's so many layers to that. So do you by chance know off the top of your head how many millions of acres are conserved through the route of the parks? Or just an estimate?
[00:23:45] Speaker C: Yes, there are. I have a rate here is.
So it's probably 23 million acres.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Yes. Of which we have triggered 10 million with our donation. So it's a big number. But the things weren't easy at the beginning when I started to work, I mean, this project was super controversial in Chile. We had everybody against us. There were so many conspiracy theories about what Doug and Chris, real intentions Were So it was pretty hard. It's pretty hard. But perseverance and, you know, and actually doing what you said you were doing, it's the way to do this successful story.
But it was very difficult.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: What are you saying?
[00:24:36] Speaker C: Well, one thing is that conservation alone, it could be easier. But when you're also an activist and you're an outspoken person to criticize, you know, the destruction of nature, that is what brings a lot of problems. And then Doug was very outspoken about the impact of the salmon industry because we were in the fjords area and we were seeing what was happening, you know, at that time with our own eyes. And also, you know, all the situation with pine and eucalyptus replacement of the old growth forest, you know, the cutting, the clear cutting basically of the forest. So that brought us a lot of problems and controversies and conspiracy theories start to happen. And some of them were like, Doug was Jewish and he wanted to create a Jewish state in Patagonia that he wanted. Yeah, yeah. Pretty anti Semitic.
Yeah, yeah. No, they were really bad.
In other words, that he wanted to take all the granite and exchange it in the New York stock market or that he wanted to take all the cows of the south of Chile and bring American bison. Some were really ridiculous. Huh. But they were very ridiculous in northern Argentina. I remember one that they said that he wanted to make a. Because it was the wetlands that we work in north eastern Argentina, that he wanted to make a hole all the way to China to send all the water. You know, like really ridiculous stuff. But for some people, it can create a lot of noise. So it was super controversial because I think big scale conservation, it can be controversial anywhere, you know, because you have other people that have other ways of development and they see a threat in big scale conservation. So that it took a lot of our time, you know, had to defend us, ourselves in the press. We never hired, we never hired like a communications agency.
Doug didn't believe in that. He thought that, you know, that you have to put all your money in conservation because at the end of the day, you know, you're going to show with your own actions that what you're saying, what you're saying you're doing is truth.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Wow. So.
So your team, like you all wrote the responses back to the media. Yeah.
Wow. So that this was like published in newspapers and. Oh yeah, you guys were doing this stuff.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: You know, not. But accusing you of doing these unsavory things.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: Yes, yes. And you know, like at one point they were saying, which was the one that Doug says hurt the Most because he was a super ethical person, him and Chris, you know, it was that they were threatening people to take them out of their land, kind of like with guns and stuff so he could, so he could buy the land. You know, of course it was the opposite. But you know, it was really tough times. The 90s, things took a shift. Probably around 2000, 2005, things started really changing, you know, and people start at that point there was this huge clear cut project supported by the government in Tierra del Fuego.
And you know, there was all this in the newspaper how people were giving really hard time to the projects associated to the Tompkins, but totally supporting this clear cut of, you know, of all growth forest. And that created a lot of motion in public opinion. And then with time, you know, we created the first National park in 2005. So, you know, it's Corcovado National Park. Meanwhile, we continue to work in Pumalin. Pumalin. We only created it in 2018 after many, many, many years of working on it, you know, doing all the public infrastructure, everything.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Oh, okay, wow. So tell me if I understand correctly, Pumaline is essentially where Doug Tompkins and the Tompkins conservation began. But it didn't. But it took this long. Yes, what is that? 20 years, 20 plus years for it to finally be recognized as a national park.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: No, it took that long because.
Not that long, but it took long because this is a project. First we created a nature sanctuary, that designation, so we could show to people that our intentions were clear.
There wasn't the possibility at the beginning of creating a national park because we have so much against us. All the political world was against us. So with time also we wanted to create that and Chris wanted to donate a full functioning park to Chile. So it took us all those years to create all the public infrastructure, trails, little cabanas, camping areas. We would charge $1 for people to come and camp because that said that people really, if you sleep under an old growth forest, you know, that changes your life. So he wanted to give the opportunity to everybody. So it was a process. In between we were creating national parks in Argentina and in between we bought. In 2004, we bought this huge sheep estancia in southern Patagonia. And that was also very controversial. You know, many business people got together to see if they could beat against us. And then. And so we wouldn't buy it to turn it into a national park. We ended up buying it. It's already Patagonia national park that probably you will see when you come. We Turn a ship estancia into a park. In a process of 14 years, we took down, you know, like 700 kilometers, 400 kilometers of fences, exotic species. We bought it with 25,000 sheep and cows, and we reduced it progressively because we didn't want to ruin the parking. Meanwhile, we started all the monitoring process of all the species that are there, some of them on the verge of extinction. So it took us 14 years until we were ready to say we are ready to donate it as a full functioning national parks. So of all the parks we have helped create, Pumalin and Patagonia national parks, we donated them with full infrastructure. And it took us many years because Doug died in 2015.
We were in the process of donating and he died. And then it took us three other years and we were able to donate everything in 2018.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: I can only imagine what that was like for all of you to lose such an important figure. Well, in your life at that time, you've been. Have you started working with them? And, I mean, that's 20 years.
[00:32:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Working directly with them.
[00:32:04] Speaker C: 22 years at that. At that time when Doug died. Yeah, 29 years now.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Incredible. And you guys are still living. His legacy is still. Still here. Like, I'm sitting down with you and. And look at how much you've accomplished even since then. Like.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: I mean, everyone has their own beliefs in an afterlife, if there is one. Like, but if there is one, I'm sure he's smiling on all of you right now.
[00:32:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, he. He was a man who, you know, he. He was a real visionary and a real leader, you know, like a huge impact in our lives. Yes.
And then, of course, you know, the fact that. That Chris is with us is so important for us. You know, it was time for the team in Argentina and the team in Chile to go independent. And she even chose the name, you know, Rewilding Argentina, Rewilding Chile, which I thought it was pretty visionary also, because it's what we've been doing, but it wasn't just. We just didn't call it that way. And she saw it as a succession plan, you know, because she says, what if I die? You know, I want teams to be, you know, like, totally in charge, totally, you know, empowered to follow this vision. So that was really, really strategic to two visionary people.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: And, yes. So incredible.
[00:33:29] Speaker C: Gosh, it's so both, you know, one from North Face, the other one from Patagonia, also. Super.
You know, like, really. They come from really cool businesses, you know, I mean, Patagonia, I Mean, isn't. Is there any better business than that? I mean, they're huge, huge collaborators of us, of course, because they're family with Chris, you know, Yvonne, Melinda, and they had a tremendous impact in our work, in our lives in general. It's been.
It's been really nice.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: And I just had a curiosity. Is Rewilding Chile and Rewilding Argentina still connected with either of those brands? Like, do they donate or anything or. Or are you just fully independent now? I guess, just so that we can understand as consumers, you know, like, if I'm going and I want to buy a new piece of something, like as part of my Patagonia or North Face bag or Puffy, does that go back to help Rewilding Chile, Rewatting Argentina? I just. I'm just out of curious. I'm just curious.
[00:34:32] Speaker C: Definitely, definitely, definitely. They have collaborated with us even before Yvonne and Melinda decided to put all of this in this foundation. The whole change they did with their businesses. They collaborated before and they continue to collaborate. Yes, the foundations. Yes. The businesses, the foundations, the whole complex thing. Yes. No.
And in many ways, yes, yes. And Chile and Argentina, we are totally independent organization, and of course, we have, you know, each of the countries have their own politics, their own dog, but we do find, you know, we have some areas, especially when it comes to wildlife, some actions we can do together as a country, because we are. In some parts, we are. Well, no, I mean, we are bordering countries. And so we are looking into bringing Darwin 3 into Chile from the Argentine project just to improve the genetics. And of course, everything that relates to Tompkins Conservation, it's the three of us, you know, Tompkins Conservation, Riwali, Chile and Argentina.
Whatever goes in country, when each organization does their own thing.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: That's so cool, especially to hear how far you all have come since day one. And now we have these three incredibly strong conservation organizations all working together for the same common goal and then at the same time being backed by these amazing outdoor clothing brands that have a fantastic reputation. So I hope that now those first 10 years of what sounded like hell.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: Were worth it, you know, I mean, every. Every step of the way has been worth it because, you know, I mean, I just feel so proud of everything we've done, you know, everything to have a job, but it's not even a job because it's your life and it's everything you do, you know, it's just so meaningful, you know, because it doesn't have to do with me, has to do with, you know, every form of life. And to say it's, you know, I've just been so lucky and whatever, it's been hard, you know, I guess I'm also a tough cookie. So it's. Yeah, it's hard, but it's way worth it. Yeah, it's way worth it.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: You're amazing, Carolina.
So you just dropped a little bit of a hint. And I would like to talk about this topic further. So wildlife restoration, specifically. So reintroducing species and just the wildlife monitoring that you're doing. Could you teach us a little bit more about that? What are the species that you are working most on? Does it vary by park to park? Do you reintroduce species or is it all monitoring? Yeah, so I would love to hear that from the wildlife standpoint.
[00:37:29] Speaker C: Yes, I'll tell you. Also related to Patagonia national park, because I think to tell, to tell you about our wildlife program through a project, it has a better understanding. As I was telling you before, we bought this 150 acre she that sat between two national reserves, two protected areas, not in the highest category, but two protected areas of Chile. So when we bought this sheep estancia that, you know, that Doug and Chris had been camping around there for years and always thought, you know, like, this should be a park because it's Patagonian steppe. It's very little represented in Chile in terms of conservation. So when we bought the ship Stancia and we said, okay, the plan is to turn this into a park and donate it to the government. So this donation, plus the two national reserves adjacent become one national park, which is Patagonia National Park. It's already a reality. But to do that, one of the reasons we bought this farm was because one of the last population of the Huemuldia, which is a very emblematic deer in Chile and is on the verge of extinction, there's only 1500 Huemul deers left between Chile and Argentina. And today 10% of that population is in Patagonia National Park. So when we bought this tancier, we said, this is our priority to take care of this species. We need to start monitoring this species because as we take down the 25,000 sheep, progressively we need to understand the interaction between the top carnivore, which is the puma, and the weimudia. So this is the motivation to start the monitoring program as we take down the sheep, right, and the cows from the Stancia year by year, because you don't want to ruin the market. As I said before, we color pumas. We color with mundias. We put colors, monitoring colors, and we have our own park guards, right? Because we run the park. At that time it wasn't a national park yet. And we established it with our wildlife director, Christian Sauce. We established this program because we wanted to see if by taking us down the fences, selling out the cows and the puma, what was going to be the behavior of the puma with the huemundia, which is a very shy deer and very low populations. It happens that as we took down the fences also the guanacos, which is the camelid, start coming down from the top, from the mountain and start populating the valley again, which is amazing. The grasslands start to recover. It's the biggest Patagonian pre wilding project that you can find around. And we realize by years, because it's since 2004 until today, we continue this monitoring program that pumas eat mainly guanacos.
We also, in between, we did it, we did many things to be successful in this monitoring program. As we see the guanacos come back, we color the pumas. We see that we have about 30 Pumas resident, what is their behavior day and night, how that that relate to the population of women. We also find that we have an almost local extinction of Darwin's rhea. Darwin's rhea, they go along with the guanaco, they protect, they, they do the dispersing of the seeds. So the Patagonian steppe come back. So we do that, we see that they have very low number, less than 10 species in the border. So we create a reproduction center of the Darwin's rhea. We collect eggs from another Patagonian steppe valley north of there, and we incubate those eggs, we bring them and we bring them and they are born there and they're raised by the fathers, the male, they incubate the eggs and they raise the chicks. So we bring that. And today we have over 70 Darwin 3 roaming free in the territory. But we continue this, we continue this because not only you want a strong population, but also the distribution of that adult population which we are just starting to achieve. So we continue to monitor the puma today, but we do it also today because the park is open to the public and it's already a national park and there's people visiting. We also monitor to see the interaction with visitors, with humans, the interaction with wildlife, but the interaction also with humans so we can provide information together with national parks. So there are environmental education with people so they know how to behave. And when they see a puma, they're happy to see it. And when you See a puma, you say this is a complete ecosystem and you don't feel threatened. So just to answer your question before, we don't have an extinction. Chile, it's like an island because of the Andes mountain. So we don't have huge extinction, especially in the route of parks. But we do have sometimes almost local extinction and we work to strengthen small populations. So with the Wemul deer, we continue to work there, we have the monitoring, we see how they're starting to move north. We are working in making those corridors stronger for them. But also we identify along the route of parks another tens of populations of Huemundia. Today the huemunda population is 10% of its original. There's only, as I told you, 1500 left between Chile and Argentina. And in Chile probably 700 and the rest in Argentina. We identify these 10 subpopulations and we are already working in five of them with active management, which is rewilding. Active management, you eliminate threats, you take care of the dogs and cows and different threats that they compete or they attack these species. We have park guards and we work with an agreement with the government on this national corridor approach. We also just finished, as we're speaking today, the construction of the Wemul rehab center because of all the threats and the accidents and the things that happened to the Wemul. So we work that also with the government, with the wildlife Agency and with national parks. So those are our main species. We have the Darwin srea, we have the wemul, we have the top carnivore, which is the Puma. We also working with Pantera, the international organization, and we just put 100 camera traps in Pumalin and we just moved those 100 camera traps to Patagonia to establish like a baseline study of small cats, because there's very little information in the south of Chile. So we work with that too. We're in the process of analyzing the information from those 100 camera traps. We work with University of Chile in the analyzing of all of our information of camera traps along the route of parks. We also do census of these different species, especially the guanacos, which are a very good indicator of the state of the Patagonian steppe. We do that as a year or so as a part of our monitoring process.
We are now working with amphibious. We are doing a baseline study of the Darwin's frog, which is about this big, 1cm small, and all the other amphibious in Pumalinda de la Tompkins national park. Because amphibious are a very good indicator and very affected by Climate change and very good indicator of the state of the art of the ecosystem. We are starting in Puma Limp, but we are doing study along the rude of parks, step by step. What else, what other species? We are starting to work in the southern tip of Chile with the Reddit goose can Colorado, which is on the verge of extinction too, and doing actions to eliminate threats and see where we can go with this species. All related to the different national parks we are working on. We're working with, I say with, I probably forgot to mention some of them, but we work in total with seven species right now. Different species.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: Wow, that is incredible. And then on the ecological side, I'm assuming then because you know, to bring back wildlife you have to have good ecosystems. So like you're doing a great job of removing invasive species. I don't know much about these ecosystems. Like is one of the main ways to restore it planting trees or just like planting native. Just planting stuff. But what is that stuff in that strategy?
[00:46:54] Speaker C: Exactly. I mean, when, when we started Pumalin, going back to Pumalin. Pumalin, as I said, it's. It's where the Andes Mountains come straight into the ocean. So, so you have a lot of vertical worlds with all growth forest and very little valleys. But those little, you know, very few valleys. But those few valleys were, those were, were people inhabited, you know, and with those colonization processes I was telling you about. So those valleys were very trashed when we, when we started making Pumalin park because, you know, people were just left there with not, not a lot of aid. So people would cut the trees to make their houses, to make firewood, to sell wood. And so, so you could see that the valleys were very trashed. So what we did in Pumalin park, we did a reforestation program. This was.
But we created our own tree nursery. We collected the seeds and we made their own trees to reproduce the temperate rainforest that we were trying to reforestate, restore, rewild. And it's been pretty successful. It's been very successful. I mean you can't tell the difference today. And in Cape Forward, the future Cape Forward national parks that we are building on the Strait of Magellan, that we're making it with this administration, we are starting a restoration program of South Antarctic forest.
There's only about 100, I would say 300 acres that are damaged because of different human actions.
And so we are starting also a tree nursery with, you know, with the National Park Service, you know, a tree nursery program so we can restore those approximately 300 acres of south. So it looks pristine with time.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: It's making me even more excited for when I come down.
[00:48:49] Speaker C: Yes, yes. So we do it and, you know, and as I said with. With all the actions we did to turn, you know, sheep estancia into a national park that brought, you know, 100,000 acres of Patagonian steppe. Because you take down the threats, which would be, of course, cows and sheep, that's what they eat, you know, grass and the local. The endemic species that come back, like the guanaco, like Darwin srea. And that is all a collaboration process, you know, because that's what we see in nature. It's all collaboration between different species. It's what happened there. And now you have this incredible Patagonian step full of guanacos and, you know, and the. And the species from the place. And it just looks amazing. You have to see it with your own eyes.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Sounds beautiful. So we have large scale land protection, we have wildlife restoration, and we have ecological restoration in marine ecosystems and on land. Now, there's one big aspect of rewilding that I also want to ask about, and that's the human side of this.
So how does rewilding Chile, how do you engage with local communities, especially around these national parks? Like, what are you seeing? Are you still getting pushback? Are things changing?
[00:50:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:15] Speaker B: Tell me about the human side.
[00:50:16] Speaker C: Yeah. So our community outreach, if we can call it somehow, when you describe what's the work of rewild in Chile, it's big scale, you know, park making, restoration, ecological restoration, rewilding and community work, and of course, activism, because that's part of it. Right. But our community outreach program has taken many, many forms along the years. At one point, we had 450 people working with us when we were in the process of building Pumalin and Patagonia park, and that is neighboring people, and of course, some people from abroad, because it's a lot of people. Right. So when we started, you know, we did folk festivals. We did. So we can promote the culture and the love for your place. So we did a lot of that. Nine different folk festivals in the Pumadin area. I loved it. I loved it. I mean, it was 11 years that it took us to do all those festivals where we would discuss folklore and the link between folklore, culture, and your own respect, identification and love for your place. Because it all starts there. How are you gonna protect something if you don't love it? So, you know, that was. Doug and Chris were super innovative in this. We did a lot of theater in rural schools Greenhouses, because environmentalism starts where you eat greenhouses, organic agriculture. And so we did, you know, like garbage cans for the, for the little towns around. We did the transformation of a village of El Amarillo, Yellow town, El Amarillo. We transformed that village, all the houses and the gardens in a little touristic village, so people can see that. But today, while in Chile, our community outreach program, it's called, we have two things. It's called Friends of Parks. Because what we want to create is a community that through environmental education, falls in love by knowing, you know, the species, the frogs, the trees, the birds and everything. They fall in love and they get to know and they transform themselves in the first line of defense of their territory. So we work through environmental education with. Right now we are working with five communities. We hope to work all along. We have a 20 year program to work all along the route of parks, in those parks that have visitation, right? That have access. You have access, you have a community. And you want to link the community with the park and you want visitors not only to visit the park, but to visit the community. So we work with them. And we also do in a second phase. As I say in the first one, it's a lot of, you know, we take especially in geology, in geography, in birds and culture, you know, how this park started, who were the initial inhabitants. Just know your place and love your place. You know, it's been incredible. And in the second stage, what we do is we are certifying, along with the national parks and everything, guides, tourist guides for those parks so people can see, you know, so young people can see that they have their, they can have a future there, that they don't have to go away to have a job. You know, it's been an incredible experience. And also we work with handcraft, you know, like how their handcraft can be inspired in nature. And we work with a specialist in that. And it's been very, very beautiful with Doug and Chris for 25 years we had a network of kneaders and we saw those things in the parks we were creating. Now we are back to that idea and work with the women. And if you don't know, we find a specialist, we teach you so you can make a better product, so you can have an economic life where you live, that is in these little towns near to the national park. So that's how we work with people. And of course we have lots of people working with us. We are starting next year, a volunteer program. Program. Again, we did have it with Tompkins Conservation, but we Became independent. You know, we, we had to regroup, rethink and you know, and grow very organically. So we do have some volume. I mean, mainly people doing their thesis, not their thesis, but you know, when you finish your career, you have to do a, you have to work. So we have people in the, in the reproduction center. We have specialists that come and they can report to the universities with the work they do with us. But we hope to start a volunteer program next year.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Oh my gosh.
[00:55:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:13] Speaker B: That's incredible.
[00:55:14] Speaker C: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. Yes.
[00:55:17] Speaker B: So it sounds like, I would assume then hopefully all those negative newspaper will be online now articles of Rewilding Chile and, and all those things. Hopefully a lot of those are gone now. Are they settled? Do you still have any of that kind of pushback or is it a lot quieter now?
[00:55:38] Speaker C: No, it's quiet. It's quieter. I think we are an organization that is. And of course Chris is like an idol in Chile and Doug very well respected. But there are issues that are going to remain because they're very emotional. Like for people that, you know, people in Patagonia, their great grandparents and their parents, they all did sheep farming, you know, and for them it's their culture. For them, it's very hard for them, even if it's not their land, they don't own that land. It's very hard. The change of the culture going from, you know, being a sheep farmer to conservation for them is for some people it's very hard to take because I think it's very emotional. Maybe your grandfather or your great grandfather was a hero. He moved to these really isolated areas to start their work. And suddenly people think that maybe because you're doing conservation, you're looking down on that area. But the truth of the matter is that areas are totally over grace after 100 and some years.
But I do understand it because it's not rational, it's more emotional that that has to do with your culture, with your ancestors. And sometimes it's hard to take. In general, I would say we're a very well respected organization. Yes.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: And I totally empathize with that. And you know, a lot of that happens all over the world. We deal with that a lot in the United States as well and everywhere, like our rural community. And, and I get it. Like, I completely get it. I grew up with people that were farmers and you know, a lot of them are currently dealing with, you know, like commercialized farming and like, you know, keeping your doors open. So I, I get it. And the big wolf reintroductions that are happening in the us So I understand why people would feel threatened by that. But hopefully all of these other positive things and as generations move forward, you know, the conservation and just celebration of what you have in Chile will continue like that will be the culture.
[00:57:44] Speaker C: Exactly. So what we're trying, the root of parks of Patagonia. It's an idea launched by DAG in 2015 that what hopes is to not replace, not change, but inspire another way of developing economic development that goes along with nature and not against nature. That's all it is. How do we put value in big scale conservation, you know, national parks and how do we make also a good living for people around these areas? And that's the root of park. It's a great marketing idea. It's a great vision of a territory. It's a reality. I mean, I don't know, this country is truly spectacular. It's beautiful, it's all there. Let's put energy in something that doesn't destroy nature, but, you know, respect nature. And that's the whole idea of promoting the rural parts of Patagonia. And this year, not last year, now it was taken by the Chilean government and it's being, it's a 10 year plan to do the signage and it's becoming a reality. You know, it's fantastic because it only does good. It only does good.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. Just this is just such an inspiring story and for you to have been there since pretty much day one, which I think that is such a unique perspective as well as it's rare that, you know, today we can meet somebody that has seen the evolution of this since 1995 or even before that when you're working at that rafting company and Doug made you aware of these big threats to your river that you worked on. You know, just in hindsight, and I did want to ask you a question. What has it been like for you becoming the executive director of Rewilding Chile?
[00:59:42] Speaker C: There was one thing about working with Doug and Chris that it was also I was hired as their assistant, but both of them are generalist. So they don't hire specific people for specific jobs. They're generalists. You know, you come in, you like to do that and you like to do this other thing. I mean, and you. And you can do it. Go ahead and do it. So they don't never put a roof to me. So I was their assistant. I had like five different presentation cards. I was the sales. Because we did a lot of productive projects to generate local Labor. So we did Honey Organic Honey Organic Jam. So I was the, the sales manager, I was the communications director and I was the person who executed whatever they wanted to do the developing of all the tourism in the parks too. Because we were a small team and we started to grow especially more on the field than on the office.
So I think it was a natural evolve in my career with them that when dad wasn't here that I would take that place.
Nevertheless, it's been really hard for me because I feel very responsible not only for all the team, because we have to fundraise for the team and for the programs and for the parks. And I feel super responsible for Doug and Chris legacy.
I can't imagine myself just walking away and whatever happens to all they did here. So in that sense, it's really hard, I would say that. But I feel very natural in this position.
I'm not an expert.
All I know is because I've been here a long time and I feel comfortable with that. I'm not technical, I'm not a biologist. I be here. I'm a person who knows how to get things done because I was trained by the best and. But it was hard. It was hard. Especially losing Doug was hard. And you know, the whole change was hard. But you know what happened also just to finish with that, I was set on a path, you know, working forever with Doug and Chris. You know, I was probably going to retire, you know, but suddenly Doug dies and then Chris decides I become the executive director. You know, first of all was from Tompkins Conservation Chile. Now rewild in Chile. And it was like when you reset the computer, you know.
So for my brain, it's been fantastic. You know what I mean? It's hard, but it's stimulating. It's not.
[01:02:25] Speaker B: It's re energizing and you're the perfect person. Just like the, the enthusiasm that just is like coming off of you right now. It's. It's so inspiring and. Yeah. And then I guess with that, what keeps you so hopeful? Why do you wake up every day ready to go and keep working on this mission?
[01:02:48] Speaker C: Okay, I'm not hopeful.
I'm not hopeful. No, I'm not hopeful at all. But I'm actually really sad.
Maybe not for my generation. It's bad enough. But for babies, what is their life going to be like with all this incredible drastic changes, you know, droughts.
So I'm not hopeful. But nevertheless, I think that shifts can happen and you never have to stop trying. You never have to stop trying because maybe what we're doing today is going to help not my generation, my daughter's generation, but maybe, you know, two or three more generations to come. So I kind of put my thinking in two or more three generations. Not because I'm not hopeful what's going on right now. I'm not going to do anything about it. You got to keep trying at it.
It's the only way I could feel comfortable with myself.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: That's such an honest answer. And I definitely, I respect that. I absolutely do. Sometimes it's. It's hard to get up. But at the same time, just like you said, we can't step away. We can't not do this. It can't at least help in some way, shape or form. Even if we don't have any clue or hope of what exactly the future will look like, but we can at least make a dent.
[01:04:15] Speaker C: Exactly.
[01:04:15] Speaker B: In a positive way.
[01:04:17] Speaker C: And I truly think that when you look at the route of parks, we can't move all of us there. But there's going to be one place that for a long time is going to be green and beautiful and it's going to have an impact in our country for sure and for the world.
Got to keep trying. We have to complete that vision and keep at it.
[01:04:48] Speaker B: Yes.
Oh, I can't wait to see the root of the parks.
[01:04:51] Speaker C: It's a matter of time.
[01:04:52] Speaker B: So I'm on a plane. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I'll be there soon. Do you have any?
Okay, maybe I can't ask for secrets or like sneak peek or spoilers, but what are the big projects that Rewilding Chile is currently working on that you are allowed to tell us about?
[01:05:11] Speaker C: One of the biggest projects is the completion of this new national park on the Strait of Magellan. That project has been conceived in three phases. We already completed the purchase of the first phase. We're doing the restoration work there. We're working with the government to make that part happen. But there's two more phases, two more purchases that we have not done yet. But by the time. I hope nobody in Chile is listening to this, maybe it's a spoiler, but by the time we conclude that it's going to be about a corridor, about 20 million acres protected. So that's a huge deal.
[01:05:46] Speaker B: That's amazing.
[01:05:47] Speaker C: It's amazing. We're not buying the 20 million acres, but if we manage to complete this project the way we envision it, I mean, there are over 20 million acres protected in ecological corridor of over 20 million acres. So that's a fantastic project. The other thing that we have strengthened our marine program on the Southern Ocean of Chile. We're starting this year to do carbon sequentration measurements that are really, really important for decision making in terms of protection, conservation, park creation. It's going to be good for Chile to have that kind of information. Yeah. And we continue to do all of our monitoring and all the species that.
[01:06:32] Speaker B: I mentioned before, gosh, 20 million acres.
[01:06:35] Speaker C: That's just.
[01:06:36] Speaker B: That is so exciting and mind blowing. So before I let you go, there is one question that I absolutely love to ask. And since we all come from different walks of life, we've all picked up some message or like a piece of advice that we'd love to share with others for you. What is that piece of advice that you would love to share with those listening?
[01:07:03] Speaker C: Conservation of our natural world is not in the hands of our governments. It depends on all of us and all the civil society and we all have to contribute. Let's not be lazy. Let's put our little Granito de Arenas we say in Chile and contribute to that.
We're all needed. We're all needed. If we want to make this shift that it's looking really hard right now, we should all contribute. This is the root of parks, huh?
[01:07:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
Oh, I promise I'm doing my part, girl. I'm going to hopefully, hopefully be there in a few months. I'm arranging that and I would love to see you for sure make that happen.
Lots of things going on behind the scenes that I haven't quite yet announced.
Hopefully maybe when this episode drops I'll be able to share a little bit more of what we are working on behind the scenes but very exciting stuff and hopefully that will also include a live in person chats together. Fantastic seeing you.
I'm lots of stuff, lots of logistics that we're working on but very, very exciting. And Carolina, you are just so incredible and very inspiring and I'm so grateful that we connected online.
Just everything that has happened from that one moment that you found me and sent a friend request and I frantically messaged you like immediately.
Just everything that has positive has already happened so far since that fateful meeting online. So again Carolina, thank you for just your dedication to this even in the hard times and even after everything that you've gone through and you're still so happy and positive and smiling and coming from there. So again, thank you for sitting down with me today.
[01:09:05] Speaker C: Thank you Brooke, thank you so much for spending this time together and I hope to see you in Chile soon.
[01:09:11] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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[01:09:43] Speaker B: Mean the world to me.
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[01:10:36] Speaker B: A big thank you to the guests.
[01:10:38] Speaker A: That come onto the show and share their knowledge with all of us. And to all of you Rewild Algae listeners for making the show everything it is today. This is Brooke signing off. Remember, together we will rewild the planet.
