Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hey, again, welcome back to rewild ology, where we explore conservation travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host, Brett Mitchell, Norman conservation, biologists, and world traveler. If you just clicked on this episode and haven't listened to part one of my conversation with Daniella, then I recommend hitting pause and heading to episode 14. So listen to her background and all of the phenomenal research she's performing. If you've already listened to part one, or don't mind picking up in the middle of the conversation, then great stay right here. And part two of my conversation with Daniella, we explore the struggles she's encountered throughout her career and what she's had to overcome to continue moving forward. We also chat about when she thinks she'll finally have reached success and gives fantastic life advice that you'll definitely want to hear. If you're digging this show, please follow and share wherever you're listening, sharing is the best way to help the show grow. And I promise to continue bringing on fascinating guests and topics. Now let's get to part two with Daniella.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 At the end of the day, I do a lot of like health measures based off of like hormones and different biomarkers. And when it comes to elephants in the field, it's all, non-invasive so primarily feces, but sometimes urine. And if it's in the zoo, some of those, but also blood. So yeah, that's awesome. You're making me want to go back. Oh my gosh. I have, um, I've been trying to continuously figure out what it is. We can get back into the field and every time I said, okay, it's going to be this month. There's more developments with COVID and just keeps getting pushed back. Um, but so the orphan elephant study was supposed to start last April and because of COVID has been put on pause. So now what we're doing, um, is actually starting next month. I'll start training research assistants there in Zambia via zoom.
Speaker 2 00:02:12 So like online training, showing them videos that I already have of like sample collection and walking through everything so that we can get it going and not continue to wait because we're already, you know, about a year behind schedule here. So just because of the uncertainty with, uh, the state of COVID, uh, we didn't really want to keep waiting until I could get back over there because like I said, every time it changes and what's really funny. So I was in Congo last year. I was supposed to be in Africa for all of 2020. So about six months of my time in Congo, two months of my time in Uganda, two months of my time in South Africa, two months of my time in Zambia for all of these different projects. Wow. That's a good dream. And that was the dream. That was the journey because of COVID because of COVID.
Speaker 2 00:03:05 I had to come back early and my friend just last week, she showed me some WhatsApp messages I sent her. And while I was leaving, Congo is like, it's fine. It's fine. I'll be back in like four to six weeks. It's totally. That was, you know, about 10 months ago. Okay. Um, so it was just, you know, everybody, I don't think anybody realized the extent of what was going to happen, but I definitely was naive about it. And I was like, fine. I'll be back by the end of the summer. Obviously not the case as I still sit here in Bloomington, trying to figure out when, when I could get back. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:48 Well your project sound, Oh my gosh. I cannot wait to read your papers. I love reading scientific papers. I not wait to read. It
Speaker 2 00:03:56 Turns out it's going to be, it's going to be some time still because all of it, you know, some of it is data collection still. And a lot of our like dunk samples are still in range country. And then again, because we're about a year behind, um, you know, it just, it just takes time. Science takes time, but yeah, I'm super, I know I'm biased. I just think the projects are super cool. And I'm excited also say, yeah, I mean, do you have any questions about you? I don't know. I mean, I rambled for so long.
Speaker 1 00:04:29 What a great job laying them out. I mean, most of my questions now are like what you're starting to find, but it sounds like it's way too luminary to yeah. To really start diving into what the, what you're starting to find, but we'll have to do a followup for sure. Once, once they're starting like, okay, so preliminary data, like this is what I'm starting to find. I would love to hear that. Um, cause you have so many things out there right now. So many things Bruin and can't wait to hear what you find. Um, so, so to transition a little bit, but not that much. Um, so I'm, for me example, I've never had a, like a professional research position and I'm sure a lot of people listening haven't either. So how exactly do you do that? Like, so you had your PhD, um, and now you're at Indiana university. So like how does that work? How do you make a career out of research and how the hell do you get funding for these unbelievable projects? Because all of a sudden that income from your pocket.
Speaker 2 00:05:35 So how does
Speaker 1 00:05:36 That work? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:39 So, uh, it's a very good question. I too was in the dark probably for good part of my PhD as well. I remember when I first started my PhD, I was like awesome. Being a student again. That means I have like winter break, spring break summers off, not true. He met us. That is not the case. So yeah, there's a lot of, um, I don't know if mysticism is the right word, but definitely unknowns about how academia works. So yeah, you get your PhD and, and I can't speak for all PhDs. Right? Cause every different field is different. Um, but mine is a hard science. So we could talk about hard sciences let's say, and probably fairly similar if you're looking at ecology biology or anything along those lines. Um, so some people try to go into academia or continue in academia. Other people go into industry jobs.
Speaker 2 00:06:40 So I have a friend who works for a, an industry and she does like research and development for them. You could go into kind of like editorial stuff or scientific publications and, and be the person that, you know, reads the papers and provides the correction, stuff like that. Uh, but if you want to continue doing research or teaching, you're probably going to stay in academia. And if you want to just do teaching, um, you don't necessarily need to do a postdoc, which is my current position. So a post-doc is really necessary and has increasingly become necessary as faculty positions are harder to come by, but if you're going to continue doing research and it's kind of that in-between period where you are a doctor, you have your PhD, but you still need more training or you're trying to get another, um, more tools for your toolbox, let's say.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 And so you still have mentors, but you have a lot more, uh, like, uh, autonomy and um, longer leash let's say, but you still have a safety net there if you need it. And so that's the position I'm in and you find that position through networking. You find that position through job postings, talking to your mentors, seeing if they know anyone, you know, depending on your field, it's also a good time to pivot in your research. So let's say, um, like I could use my friend for example, who, um, we have the same mentor now, his PhD was, um, studying hope. I hope he doesn't listen to this because it's going to be a little wrong, but it was the effect phosphorus on, on the liver or something like that in mice note rats in rats. But it was very, you know, basic science and what lab work.
Speaker 2 00:08:48 And now he's more interested in the rigor of science, reproducibility, transparency. So the quality of science, which is very different. So most of his work now is just strictly on a laptop, right? And so he's pivoted tremendously during his post-doc for me, my pivot wasn't as major, it's still elephant physiology based elephant biology based, but I'm pulling in new aspects. I'm pulling in this aging component, I'm pulling in this psychosocial component with the early life trauma, right? These new areas that I didn't receive training in. So it's an opportunity to grow your research portfolio, to gain more skills and to become more proficient as a scientist. And then from there again, if you're still continuing to try to stay in academia, then you'll, you'll look for, um, an assistant professorship at a university. And that would likely be a tenure track position. And again, looking at job postings and reaching out through your network and applying, um, but you could also go a different route if you don't want to do tenure track, which would require teaching at an R one university, which is like a major research university.
Speaker 2 00:10:09 You still have to teach if you want to get tenure. Um, but if you don't want to teach, you could be like a research scientist. So it's a faculty position, but it's not tenure track. And so you don't have a teaching obligation, you just strictly do research. And so then for your research and how you make all this work is what you're asking. There's something called soft money. There's something called hard money. So hard money is part of your salary. That's coming from the university. So they're paying you for certain, let's say expectations. And usually that's in the, comes in the fact of teaching. So different departments and different programs have different teaching loads. Sometimes it's two courses for two semesters. Sometimes it's one course for two semesters. It just depends on your department, what you negotiate, but you could also buy yourself out of those teaching requirements through grants.
Speaker 2 00:11:03 So you put in a grant and in your budget, you budget for all the supplies, equipment analyses, but also part of your salary or percentage of your effort is on that grit. And so depending on how much that is, you could potentially buy yourself out of having to teach a class. So now more of your time is guaranteed for research and less of that time is now on teaching. Um, and so that's kind of yeah, how it works and there's funding different mechanisms depending on your area. So for me, a lot of my research for the aging goes to the Nia. So the NIH has a massive budget, so you have more money there. Um, there's also the NSF, which is kind of the NIH is counterpart that is more theoretically and less applied based and has nothing to do with human health. So if even insinuate human health, you're not going to get funded with the NSF.
Speaker 2 00:12:04 Um, so those are the two like us government, government funding agencies. Then you have foundations. So I've received a grant from the Morris animal foundation, um, the epilepsy foundation and they just have different like statements or a purpose, right? So the Morris animal foundation focuses on animal health. The epilepsy foundation focused on let's say risky projects. So projects that likely wouldn't be funded by traditional mechanisms because they are like at that bleeding edge, they're cutting edge and, and new and innovative. Um, I get a funding from zoos. Yeah. And then there's, you know, people have donors, I don't have, uh, like standard donors that are always on the lookout for research, a sugar mama or sugar daddy. Well, you have people, uh, have long-term donors who donate to their research, uh, yearly and, you know, crowdfunding campaigns are another way that you can get money for your research. So there's a lot of different, different ways, but the traditional mechanisms are grants through either, um, governmental agencies or foundations. Yeah. That's a good explanation of it and how that actually works. Yeah. Well, you know, it's, uh, I hope, I hope that was clear. I know it's a complicated process, but if anyone listening has questions, they can always email me. It's not a problem.
Speaker 1 00:13:42 Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. That's great. Um, cause you know, I've not personally been on that path, so I've only heard do you know, just by meeting people what exactly that entails as well.
Speaker 2 00:13:52 Yeah. I mean, I'm learning, I'm learning too, as I'm moving up my ladder. And so some of this stuff is new for me and things I'm going through right now, but yeah, it's definitely a learning curve in academia. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:07 Sounds like it. Yeah. Um, so, so kind of the next question, um, a little bit more on a, on a, like a more personal note, but since I think we've all had our stories and just, you know, our ups and downs in life for you, what has been like one of your biggest struggles through your career or, um, was there a particular moment that was hard and I, in the end was a good life lesson, but I know I've had a few in mine and a lot of the guests I've had on as well. But for you, have you had any like hard struggles or defining moments that was, um,
Speaker 2 00:14:46 It's a little difficult. Yeah. Uh, agree. A hundred percent. I feel like everyone has them. And so if someone is experiencing one, they should not feel like they're alone in that. So I'll, I'll talk about two, one. I feel like I've talked about it a little bit, but it is actually slightly self induced because I continued this path, but elephants in, in public health and you know, I, I continuously to chew, I continuously choose to go down this path and that's because I see all the upsides to it, but that does not mean it does not come without its hardships and challenges. And so there are some people that don't buy in and there are some people who don't get it and they don't see it because it is so outside the box and it's not traditional and it's not what people expect. And there, you know, um, there's pushback.
Speaker 2 00:15:46 It's like, well, how does this fit? And will you know, why, why is this type of research in this department or, or things along those lines? So it is a constant battle and it hasn't changed where I have to continuously defend my position and defend my research. And I think what helps with that is one having the support again, of some key individuals who are, you know, um, more senior to you, uh, especially for me still being at an earlier stage in my career. So that's very important having that backing, knowing I have someone going to bat for me, knowing I have people supporting me, but again also like standing firm in your convictions and knowing the value you're providing and the value your research is providing. Um, and so that's not saying that it's easy by any means, but staying true and the belief in yourself and in your research of doing good quality science, but also science that's transformative science that is going to push that needle.
Speaker 2 00:16:56 And you're not just doing the same type of study that everyone else is doing. That's giving the same exact answers and the same exact information, but then you're expanding the breadth of the scientific literature in your field. Um, so that's kind of what keeps, keeps me going, but also practice like practice, having to say how I fit having to talk about why elephants for human health and, and the value that they provide. And, um, I started having to do that during my PhD, but I still to this day practice, um, and have to continue to evolve that answers. So just keeps getting refined and stronger and cleaner and more succinct. So that's definitely has been a challenge that kind of pops up throughout my career, uh, every so often. And then another is actually field work. And I think especially young people, I've had a lot of undergrads who reach out and they want to get involved in the research, but what they will really want to do is go to Africa and be there.
Speaker 2 00:17:59 And, um, I get it, I get it. I agree. Um, but I don't think everyone realizes what goes into to field work and especially where you are. And I've have again, a few different projects in a few different countries. And so everything is a little different. Some are more isolated, some are very remote, uh, some have more infrastructure and some have less, but regardless, even in the countries that do speak English, I still have constant communication. I don't want to say battles because that seems a little too extreme though. I do have some of those, but you always have to be mindful of your communication because the culture is different. And so how you say something is not necessarily how they'll say it or how they interpret it. And definitely that's, you know, communication is a thing in the countries that English is not spoken.
Speaker 2 00:18:56 And so figuring out how to communicate efficiently and effectively, um, figuring out what works in the field site and what doesn't, and knowing that it doesn't matter how well you prepare it doesn't matter how many contingency plans you have, or if you think you've done everything and checked everything off, things are going to go sideways and you just have to know that's going to happen. You're going to have to roll with it and you have to, you know, just be, open-minded stay on your toes and just realize, Hey, it's fine. What's the next step? How, how are we moving forward? And again, all that's easier said than done. I mean, I've definitely have been, um, let's say proverbially hit by, um, mother Africa, making sure she knows that, you know, that she's the boss still and, and, and, you know, feeling like, Oh, Oh goodness, like I should have known better.
Speaker 2 00:19:56 Or why didn't I think about this? Or, you know, whatever self-doubt and you got to take a step back and take a breath and realize, Hey, this is to be expected. And you're not the only one who goes through this, like field work has a sharp learning curve, especially when you are leading the project. Not when you're just, I shouldn't say just, but not when you're collecting the data, but when you are responsible for everything and anything, um, there's going to be some, there are going to be some hits and there's going to be times when you're just like, dude WTF. And then, you know, there's also the, when you're in the field for a long time, there's the social aspect, isolation missing things at home. There's always that, that you have to consider. But, um, yeah, I'd say that. The other thing I want to point out is anyone who's, everyone has imposter syndrome and you should keep that in mind when you feel like you don't know enough or you're not qualified enough, or how did that, how did I get here? I shouldn't be talking about this. I shouldn't be leading this. I shouldn't be doing this. Like, I don't have the skills. I, Oh my gosh, I'm a fraud. Everyone feels that way. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're at in your career. And you just need to remember, like, I got this, I got this, you know, so that would be the other little side note.
Speaker 1 00:21:23 No, that was great. Thanks for that. Because I know I've suffered from that many times, you know, especially being a female in the mostly male dominated field. And not that, that was, you know, anyone was ever outwardly, I mean, sometimes outwardly condescending in some way, shape or form. And then you always have these self doubts. I was like, can I do it? I mean, this rheology, like this podcast I had to get, I had several battles with imposter syndrome in getting this thing off the ground. It's like, is anyone even going to want to listen to this? You know? And then just help keep in my eyes off myself. You know, it's like, this is about the people. This is about you Daniella like, you know, and that, I know that's one of the thing that happened that helped me quite a bit with imposter syndrome does. Yeah. And still to this day, it's something I struggle with. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:16 I think it's always there. It's always there.
Speaker 1 00:22:18 Yeah. And for someone who has such a great resume, like you do, it's really inspiring to hear that it's like, wow, she has, she's done all these incredible things. Has these amazing projects. She has a PhD, she's a post-doc. And yet still even someone that that's, you know, successful, you know, so has imposter syndrome. So I think that's really helpful. I mean, it helps, like we're all human and this big picture of life. So thanks for that. That was really great. So on that note, when do you think, or, or if you could, even, if you can even predict this, when do you feel like you'll have made it or that you'll reach success? Like, what is that for you and your career?
Speaker 2 00:23:08 I say that because, uh, I often think about that in my head and I don't think I'm ever going to feel like I made it to be honest, um, not to say that or to take away from what I've done, but I just, I feel like there's always a next thing that I want. So for me, a recent revelation wasn't, Hey, here's a faculty position. I made my dreams come true. That wasn't it for me, my dreams coming true is having and leading my own field research in Africa. That is what I had always aspired to do and have. Um, and so that was kind of like for me, my ultimate goal, but, you know, as, as you reach certain, and I don't know if this is healthy or not healthy, but this is just how it works for me, I've reached certain milestones or goals.
Speaker 2 00:24:16 I then just refine that goal or change that goal or update that goal. And then that bar just keeps moving. And so, I mean, I want to ultimately like at the end of the day, when all is said and done, and my career's done, I want to be known for one quality science. It's very important to me that the, that the work I'm doing is sound and my methodology is, is sound and clean, let's say rigorous. Um, but that it made an impact that there are made an impact both on people, you know, not just in terms of health, but like mentorship, you know, next generation, things like that inspired like especially little girls, I think, um, knowing that, Hey, you can play in mud and, and get in with the lizards and the snakes and be out dirty in the field, just like the boys.
Speaker 2 00:25:23 And Hey, that, that is science. That is science. You don't have to just wear a white lab coat and be a guy and a man just add up at a bench somewhere like a bench top, right. There are different types of science out there. And, and I want little girls to see themselves doing that. That's very important to me. Um, but also with elephants that we have elephants for generations to come and some of the work that I'm doing both in terms of things like this, just talking about elephants and in terms of my research has an impact on that outcome. Um, you know, but there's so many different, big goals. I have, like, I want to be a talking head for someone like, and have input on some of the big conservation decisions for elephants, right. So that's a goal of mine. Um, I want to yet continue to grow my, my field team and field sites and make it long-term and sustainable.
Speaker 2 00:26:28 Um, that's a goal of mine. Uh, so I don't know. It just, it kinda just keeps updating. And so I don't know if I'll ever feel like I've made it, um, you know, again, maybe it's part of imposter. It's like, I mean, these people could know, or do you know more about elephants tonight? I don't know, but at the end of the day, for me, it's something that drives me to continue pushing myself, um, and having those vulnerabilities and, and just reworking things in my head and just kind of keep it moving, I guess. But yeah, but it's funny you ask that because I constantly think about it. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 For sharing that I think we all do. And I really love to ask that question because I just think it really helps humanize all of us and that we all go through, we all go through this, like, what is our actual goals in life? So like, okay, I finally reached that thing. And then you realize that, that thing, wasn't, it didn't fulfill you. Like you thought it was supposed to. And then, you know, what, what is, what are the next steps? And so, no, that's great. It sounds like you're going to have a life of learning, which
Speaker 2 00:27:40 Yes, yes. Yeah. You gotta keep learning. You can't stay stagnant. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:27:47 It's been so fun so far. I can't believe we're already two an hour and a half. This is amazing.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 Yeah. I'm standing this whole time, by the way.
Speaker 1 00:28:02 I'm like moving all the whole time and that's just me, um,
Speaker 2 00:28:05 Totally in the background he's outside. I'll take you, if you don't mind me moving me with you. Um, but yeah, so
Speaker 1 00:28:18 I know you've already given so many great points. Um, but if you wanted to give a piece of advice for anybody listening, um, in any way, if that said, we want to go into academia, or maybe just in general, what is some partying advice that you would love to give to anybody
Speaker 2 00:28:34 Listening? I think it goes back to something I've said throughout the podcast, which is believing in yourself and staying true to that. Um, because everybody has their own agenda and you just need to know what you want and trust and prepare yourself to be able to do that. So you can't just, you know, not put in the legwork to get to that, right. You have to put that work in and, um, everything that goes on behind the scenes to get it accomplished. So it's not going to just magically happen because you believe in yourself, you believe in yourself and you need to prepare yourself. Um, but I mean, I feel like for me, remembering what it is that I loved as a kid and what I was passionate about as a kid is probably the best thing that you can do when it comes to your adulthood and what you make of your life and that into however you proceed and like career or passion like fulfillment, you know, not everyone gets their fulfillment from their career, but keeping those things in mind, what it is that you loved as a kid, what is it you're passionate about?
Speaker 2 00:29:59 What made you happy? Um, and then wrapping that all up, believing in yourself, preparing yourself and, and then ma manifesting it. I guess something along those lines, I guess, you know, I'd say
Speaker 1 00:30:13 That's great. No, that's great. Yes. Manifest it, visualize it, whatever you want to do, whatever you gotta do. That's right. Become real.
Speaker 2 00:30:21 That's right. Well, I mean, I just think like there's confidence, confidence is so important and you just need to be confident in you and confidence comes from a lot of different places, including being prepared. But also like you got this, you can do it and just go and do it, you know? And if it doesn't work out, you take that as a learning opportunity. Why didn't it work out? You take it, you learn from it and you apply that for the next opportunity and then keep it going and keep it moving.
Speaker 1 00:30:56 Yeah. Either you either succeed or you learn that's, it really, isn't a failure. You either succeed or you learn
Speaker 2 00:31:02 That's right. I like that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:31:05 That's great. So if anybody listening wants to get ahold of you, what are some of the best ways, um,
Speaker 2 00:31:12 However, there's
Speaker 1 00:31:14 An email or, I mean, you don't have to keep your email, um, or like a website or anything off easily.
Speaker 2 00:31:20 Um, so on social media you could follow me. I think all my social media is the same as my first initial, last name. So D C H U S Y D. Um, and then, yeah, please reach out and email me if you want to get involved in the research support, the research, we have an elephant research fund through ICU. You could email me again. My first initial, last
[email protected]. So it's D C H U S Y D I u.edu. You could easily Google my name and IUL and probably find it that way. Um, but yeah, follow me on, uh, you know, social media platforms. Um, I probably post mostly on Instagram. Uh, my Twitter game is pretty weak, but, um, yeah. I mean, yeah, you can't, you can't be great at all of it. You can't be great at all of it. Um, but yeah. Yeah, you can always email. Awesome. Well,
Speaker 1 00:32:21 To make sure that if, and if anybody reach out, I will also send them your way in case anybody wants to get ahold of you. But this has been amazing Daniella.
Speaker 2 00:32:35 Yeah. It's my pleasure. Hey,
Speaker 1 00:32:37 Thanks again for listening to this of rewild ology.
Speaker 2 00:32:40 If you'd like that you heard hit that subscribe button to never miss a future episode. Do you have in cool environmental organization, travel story or research that you'd like to share? Let me know you bought all g.com until next time friends together. We will. Rewild the planet.
Speaker 3 00:32:55 Yeah.
