Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hello, everyone. Welcome back to rewild ology, where we explore conservation travel and rewilding the planet. I'm your host, Rick Mitchell, Norman conservation, biologists, and world traveler. And this week's episodes. I'm chatting with a very interesting researcher at Daniella <inaudible> PhD, who is setting elephants to better understand ourselves. And part one, we go back in time and learn about her childhood international experiences and opportunities that led her to academia. We'd go into depth about her current research. And let me tell you, it is fascinating from studying elephant mental aging, to working with elephant orphanages and CMPs South Africa to understand how experiencing early life trauma relates to health behavior and cognition. Daniella is pioneering a whole new way to learn about us while conserving the world's largest land animal. I have studied elephants a lot over the years, and I learned so much from Daniella and I am sure you will help too. And tomorrow's episode she and I explore her struggles throughout her career and what she's had to overcome to get to where she is today. She also gives fantastic applicable advice that you will not want to miss. If you're liking the show so far, please subscribe and share wherever you're listening, sharing is the best way to help the show grow. And I promise to continue to bring on fascinating guests and sharing their inspiring stories and now on to part one with Daniella.
Speaker 1 00:01:40 Awesome. Thanks Daniella. So excited to have you on the show today. So to begin, um, and our last conversation, I don't think we actually hit this point, but where did you grow up? What was your childhood?
Speaker 2 00:01:56 Yeah, uh, so I grew up primarily in South Florida, um, but we moved a little bit. My mom's American and my dad, uh, was Brazilian. So when I was little, I actually lived in Brazil and actually my first language was Portuguese on the only one in my family who doesn't, uh, still really speak it. And I get made fun of, um, for my accent. It's it is, um, unfortunate, you know, I can't blame anyone, but myself now I'm too old. I could've, you know, gone and learned, but I have a hard time with languages, like hearing and my, the rest of my family members have a really good ear for it. Um, so it's, it's just a little trickier for me, but yeah, so, uh, I lived in Brazil when I was little and then we moved back to South Florida. Um, I grew up in South Florida and a suburb of Fort Lauderdale.
Speaker 2 00:02:49 So it's between Fort Lauderdale and Miami and, um, yeah. Then lived in Florida for a good part of my life, went to undergrad, the university of Florida in Gainesville, and then lived in Israel for a few years, um, before moving back to the us. And I did my PhD at the university of Alabama in Birmingham. So then I was in Birmingham for a few years, which I have to say it's a hidden gem of the South. So if someone hasn't been to Birmingham and is listening to this and you're a foodie or you're into, you know, some outdoorsy stuff, um, Birmingham has a lot going on. It's really up and coming and Scott, this school like small town vibe, but still big city, uh, conveniences. It's pretty awesome. And then from there, I got a position here at Indiana university Sonoma in Bloomington, Indiana. Wow.
Speaker 1 00:03:45 Talk about a weather change. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:03:50 It's like 17 degrees out right now. And in the next couple of days, it's dropping down to like 10. So it's not, um, I'm not built for the cold. I'm a South Florida.
Speaker 1 00:04:04 Oh my goodness. Yeah. That's why I'm wearing a sweatshirt in my house.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 We're going to, but I just I'm cold all the time,
Speaker 1 00:04:14 But you are. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So what was in Israel? Why'd you hop over there for that?
Speaker 2 00:04:19 Yeah. So, uh, good question. Um, I graduated from college and I wasn't ready to join the real world quite yet. You know, I think there's a lot of expectations that are put on young people to know exactly what it is you want to do and even going into college, right? Like you should know what you want to do. You should know your major and you kind of go through all the steps and then you graduate from undergrad and she'd go get a job. And I've been really fortunate to have a mom who really supports, um, traveling and growth and figuring out who you are and not necessarily go a to B to C, but take the time when you're young and you have limited responsibilities to figure out what it is you want from life and what your passions are. So my parents had actually met in Israel and I had, uh, a friend, um, who was playing basketball overseas in Israel.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 And so I figured, okay, sure. Why not? So I, um, went to Israel, I lived on a kibbutz. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but I'm not. It's kind of, it was a way when Israel was first, um, you know, growing into a country, it's like, uh, everything is communal. So everyone lives on this land. You have like a cafeteria doesn't seem like the right word, like a food hall, I guess there's like a kindergarten. Everyone works there and everything's communal it's not the case anymore. I mean, people still live there, but your money is your money. My money's my money. So basically, um, I went to learn Hebrew and to, um, yeah, just have an experience. So I lived on this kibbutz for a few months and I studied Hebrew and then I worked in landscaping. So I do the landscaping around there and, and then I, um, ended up staying there, playing basketball and getting my master's while I was there.
Speaker 2 00:06:20 And then, and then came back to the States after a few years, how many years were you there then? Total? Oh, off and on for a few I've kind of lost track. Um, but I was there. Yeah. I was there for a few years, but I would stay there from, let's say like September to may or April and then come here in the summertimes and then go back kind of how it mirrored the academic year, but also like the basketball season. So they both kind of overlapped pretty nicely and it was amazing. It was so much fun and one of the best experiences of my life. And it's really, I think, a good opportunity to try to live in different countries if you can. I know not everyone necessarily has the means, but if possible it just gives you a different perspective and really start to understand values and, and what your values are and what your needs are.
Speaker 2 00:07:13 And also just to have different lenses on what's important in customs and communicating with people, especially people that have a different background than you that might not speak the same language as you and at soup. I mean, for me, where I do a lot of field work and some of that is in countries where English is not spoken. And as I mentioned, my language skills with new languages, um, are not great. It is something, it is a skill set that is very valuable and can be translational, you know, across the different or across a lot of different types of experiences. So it was wouldn't trade it for the world. And, you know, there's some, you know, there are times where you think about it, you're at a different stage at a similar, like you're at a, at the same stage in life doing something but a different age, if that makes sense with your peers.
Speaker 2 00:08:13 So for example, when I went to then get my PhD, I was a few years older than most of the other students who entered in the same cohort as I any, what time do you think about that? But I mean, I feel like it makes, it makes my perspectives, uh, more holistic and, um, really actually helps with how I handle, um, either challenges or, um, I guess a little curve balls let's say, but it just, I mean, everyone, everyone just got to figure out what works for them. And this has been a fantastic, I love my circuitous route. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Even how I met my current position is not your typical, um, major and, and path. And I like that. I like forging my own way. I like, uh, I guess challenges and maybe I look for challenges. I don't know. Uh, but really I have an idea in my head and, and I'm gonna do whatever I can to make that idea come to fruition.
Speaker 1 00:09:25 That's awesome. I'm trying to, so my nephew, he's a senior in high school right now and I'm implanting those exact same seeds. Cause those seeds weren't planted in me. Um, you know, being from a really small town like international travel does that doesn't even exist. Like I grew up in Southern Ohio and I think the furthest we went away was Tennessee. Like, it just wasn't part of my vision, but now that I've gotten older and have seen so much of the world and met so many incredible people, I'm just, I'm trying, I'm just like, you know, there's nothing wrong with a gap year. It's actually really it's. I mean, if anything now it's, it's almost like encourage, it's like go see the world when you don't have any responsibilities, go get a traveling job. Um, anything to go see the world while you figure out who the heck you are.
Speaker 1 00:10:15 I mean, he's 17 right now. And he's like, I don't know, I might do criminal psychology or I might go become like electrician at like vocational school to not have any student loan debt. And yeah, I'm just like, dude, go work for the national parks, like go like hop around the national parks for a year and then figure out what state you might want to go to. So, um, I'm really glad you brought that up because he was worried about that as well of, well, I don't want to get left behind essentially. And I'm like chance if you leave our small hometown, you've already made it way past most of your peers just going and seeing the U S or the world. So I'm really glad you brought that up. So if anybody else is in that mindset, maybe like pre college or like pre careers, like go see the world or just even just leave your bubble right now. So a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 00:11:12 Yeah. And I know it, can't be kind of scary. And I know it's been like weaved into our culture and in our mindset that, Oh, you should be hitting these certain milestones around this age point. But I mean, I think it's kind of BS. It needs to be what feels right for you and you figuring out you and, and doing and taking advantage of all these different opportunities that might not be possible when you're older. So a hundred percent you should tell your, your nephew dude. I actually think, uh, it should be a gap year should be required, uh, in our country. And, you know, really get those experiences and start figuring out who it is that you are, and what's important to you and passions and things like that. So yeah, you should totally let your nephew know and, and keep pushing them.
Speaker 1 00:12:08 I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure he listened to this episode. I'm like, I don't care if you haven't listened to ADP biggest chance I'm talking to you and all our friends get out of Southern Ohio. Go see the world. Um, no, that was great. Okay. So let's get back to you. What, so it sounds like you have this amazing time in Israel. Why, what made you come back? I mean, was it a PhD opportunity or were you ready for the next stage of life or why'd you come back to the U S
Speaker 2 00:12:41 Uh, a little bit of all of that. So, um, my undergraduate degrees in biochemistry, and I specifically chose that major, not because I love chemistry at all. Not really.
Speaker 1 00:12:56 It's not really my jam, but because I knew
Speaker 2 00:12:58 It could get me to what or where I thought I wanted to be. And at the time in undergrad, it was either to work for the government, like as a special agent, like FBI state department, things along those lines. And having a background in physical science allows you for that, or, um, to go a research route, which at the time was not elephant. Um, elephants weren't on my radar. It was actually lions. So it was to Africa, but I thought I was all about lions, not, um, elephants. And so, uh, then opportunity to Israel went to Israel and I didn't speak Hebrew fluently enough to get my master's in a program that was in Hebrew. And so there's only a few programs offered in English, none of which were in sciences. And this is very much how I live my life. I just, I go with the flow, I look for opportunities and if I think I'm into it, it's gonna make me happy.
Speaker 2 00:13:57 I take it. So there's a program that was in government, uh, specializing in like counter terrorism and Homeland security. And it was taught in English. And I was like, well, yeah, cool. Okay. That, that jives with the, the government route. And so I, that's where I got my master's in and I was starting to think of next steps. I'm I knew I wasn't going to be like a professional basketball player. I'm five, three. It was that I knew what basketball was and looked like at the time for me. And so I was starting to think, okay, next steps. And I started applying for government jobs with the U S and I received a conditional job offer with the state department. And it happened to coincide with the time I tore my ACL. So I did some rehab in Israel, and then I was like, okay, well, this is kind of all lining up.
Speaker 2 00:14:59 And so I came back to the States for all my interviews and background checks and all that type of stuff. And was, thank you. Okay, well, here's the progression of my career. This is the path that I'm going on. And, you know, it takes time, you need security clearance and they look into you and you provide all this information. They interview everybody like you had contact with and get to start to put together, you know, a, a picture of who you are and intentions and motivations and things along those lines. Um, but it's just taking a really long time. And so, while I was taking a really long time, I was like, okay, well, I need to start putting some other pieces in place if this doesn't work out. And so those pieces in place, uh, we're focused on going back to school for my PhD.
Speaker 2 00:15:51 And so I reached out to someone I knew who was a faculty member and just started asking like, Hey, what should I be doing? You know, to make myself a competitive candidate. And I'd really high scores. I was thinking of trying to go into like an ecology type program, but I have zero ecology background at this point. Like everything was just biochemistry. I didn't even take any college class or anything like that. Um, so I was in South Florida. We have a couple of universities there, but a lot of things are focused on Marine research. So I got involved in some sea turtle research was really cool. Just go out on a boat, swim count sea turtles. It was pretty awesome. Awesome. But it was, you know, a introduction into what, you know, field work could look like or research could look like. And I started looking into different programs and started applying for different programs.
Speaker 2 00:16:44 And, um, one of those programs was nutrition sciences at the university of Alabama at Birmingham. And I had no background in nutrition, sciences. I knew someone who was faculty there and she recommended the program to me and she knew I was into athletics and performance. And she was like, this is, you know, a real natural fit. And so I just was thinking about it. I wasn't, I wasn't sure, you know, especially cause nutrition sciences never crossed my mind before. And I was like, well, all right, let's, let's, I'll do it. Yeah, let me apply. And I was offered a position, a PhD position, and you know, like tuition is covered. You get a stipend and that's very attractive not having student debt. And, um, yes. And so I circled back to the state department. I was like, Hey, I've got this opportunity. And pretty much it didn't work out with the state department, which worked out for the best for me.
Speaker 2 00:17:44 Um, and so I started or supposed to start my PhD at the end, you know, the fall of 2012. And the spring of that year, I had the opportunity to do some field work in Africa and it was with elephants. And I was like, well, they're not lions because at this point I still thought lions. I'm like, they're not lions, but it gets me to the place where you can see lions. So Yale, right. And, uh, one day, so part of that project was about human elephant conflict. So farmers plant crops, you know, core banana trees, you know, a whole host of different, um, uh, produce and elephants come in and they eat the crops. And so it wipes out, you know, farmers livelihood for the year. Their food source creates a lot of conflict. And so we're trying to see about beehive fences, which are still used as well as hot chili pepper fences to see if one's more effective than the other, for keeping elephants out of farmer's land.
Speaker 1 00:18:50 And then the other part of it was to bring
Speaker 2 00:18:53 Villagers that lived around the national parks. This was in South, um, Tanzania Ruaha national park to bring them into the national park, to see the other side. So all of their experiences with wildlife had been negative. And so, Hey, here's what it looks like when they're living in their ecosystem. And you know, um, there is this other side to the coin. So on one of those trips, one of those safaris where we brought the villagers into the national park, there's a herd of, I don't remember now, there's like 30 elephants crossing a river and we sat there and watched them. And that's when I fell in love. And I was like, Oh man, I want to learn about these guys. And so I had already accepted my position, uh, at UAB for my PhD. And so during the first week I was like, I like exercise and I like working out, but I'm not passionate about it.
Speaker 2 00:19:48 I'm passionate about elephants. Like I just wanted to learn as much as I could. And a PhD is a lot of reading and which I didn't know at first started. So FYI, anyone who's interested in getting PhD, you get ready to read a lot and always read. And so the amount of reading that you have to do and synthesizing and everything like that, I think to be really successful, you have to be into what you're doing. And I realized then that if I'm going to be successful, what I'm into is elephant. So how do I make nutrition, sciences and elephants work together? And so then that's kind of how things progressed and evolved and got me to present day Daniella. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:20:35 Let's continue down that path. So, okay. So you're in nutrition sciences at this point, which is obviously a human based science. And then you're like, but I freaking love elephants. So were you able, cause clearly you successfully did it because we're talking about it right now. How did you marry the two to be allowed to study elephants? And so get your PhD in nutrition. Yeah. So a lot of different factors.
Speaker 2 00:21:00 Um,
Speaker 1 00:21:02 So I'd say one,
Speaker 2 00:21:06 Uh, you have to be really determined, slightly stubborn. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:10 I guess we used to have to have a lot of, self-belief also
Speaker 2 00:21:14 So trust in yourself that going down this unorthodox path is still the right choice. Even if people don't think it is the best decision. Um, but to know that it's the right choice, you have to do your homework. So the first thing I did was I started looking at the literature and seeing what was out there between nutrition, sciences, and related topics and elephants. Are there questions that could be asked important questions that could be asked things that haven't been asked yet, like gaps in the knowledge. Um, and then once I kind of started putting some thoughts and pieces down on paper, I started reaching out to folks in the elephant world to get their perspectives. And one of those individuals recommended, I reach out to Janine Brown and she's at the Smithsonian conservation biology Institute. So I sent her an email. I said, this is who I am. This is what I'm thinking. Um, you know, what are your thoughts? And pretty much he sent me this laundry list of questions that we don't know that relate to nutrition and elephants, particularly in zoo institutions do a logical institutions. And so at this point, my dream and goal was to do field work. And I'm bringing this up just in case, if anyone's listening, who is going to embark on a career in academia, I think it's really important to not
Speaker 1 00:22:51 Lose sight of what your ultimate goal is, but to be flexible
Speaker 2 00:22:55 And realize that every opportunity has this inherent ability to train you in some things you didn't know were going to be valuable down the line. And that's exactly what happened. And I wouldn't change my path for anything. Um, even though my, my love is still field work, I work with you still. And I absolutely love it and it's invaluable in the connections. Um, but we can kind of circle back to that. But anyway, so sorry. Um, yes,
Speaker 1 00:23:30 I reached out to Janine. She sent me this list
Speaker 2 00:23:33 And she was like, feel free to contact me, but don't be offended if I don't remember who you are. I get a lot of emails and in my head I'm like, Oh, I'll make sure she remembers me. I want to write her a hand written, thank you, card, mail it to her. She'll remember me. Um, did that. She did not remember me.
Speaker 1 00:23:50 Um, we still work together today, but I guess again, points to keep in mind, like don't be
Speaker 2 00:24:00 Turd, just keep kind of trucking along.
Speaker 1 00:24:03 And so basically she, she told me all these
Speaker 2 00:24:05 Things, I try to come up with different study ideas. And as you mentioned, I was in a human focused department. So there was no one at UAB studying elephants and no one studying animals in my department outside of like typical animal models, like rodent models and flies. And so when I first brought this up, there was a lot of pushback and hesitancy, you know, concerns all rightfully so, making sure that I was going to be trained properly, who was going to provide that training for me, does this fit in our program, you know, is a very outside of the box topic I brought up that probably never crossed anybody's mind in that department. And so just making sure that my training needs were going to be met appropriately and that it's still fit in the scope of the department. And so I was, um, encouraged to speak with David, Alison, who wasn't, wasn't in my department, but isn't outside of the box thinker and it's actually my current mentor now. And I told him like, Hey, here, here's what I'm thinking. And he, you know, had just a couple questions that stick in my mind still today. And you know, this is almost a decade ago. So,
Speaker 1 00:25:32 Um, well basically he
Speaker 2 00:25:34 Are there job prospects for me. If I go down this line, right, am I willing to deal with the complications that come with doing something like this, right? This isn't a traditional path. So knowing that it's not going to be the easy road, am I willing to take those challenges on? Um, and so he just wanted me to come back with him with some information on yes. Like what does a career in this look like? Are there job opportunities? And then I was ultimately, uh, recommended to work with who my PhD advisor was and his name's Tim Nagy and his background's in biology. And he pretty much was like, Hey, if it relates to obesity or nutrition, I don't care if it's an elephant or not. It just has to relate to that, but I don't have funding. So you need to get a grant.
Speaker 2 00:26:26 And that was pretty much like the next step. So his expertise is in body composition. So started again, going back to the, to the literature, seeing what was out there, going back to that list, all these questions that weren't known about elephants, that Janine me and ultimately came back with, Hey, nobody's measured how much fat elephants have. Right. Um, but people are, you know, using the word obese with elephants in zoos, but we don't even know. Well, one, we don't know what obesity even really is in humans. Um, how can we know this? What obesity is an elephant when no one's published and measured total fat in an elephant. So how can you, how can, you know, um, what that even means, how do you know how that relates to their health? And so that was really what my PhD turned into was I quantified how much fat and fat free mass, Asian and African elephants have, how that relates to activity levels, how that relates to their metabolic health, the reproduction, and validated a couple of tools that are used to try to get at the condition of elephants. So validating those measures against actual fat. Um, and you know, once you get one grant, uh, people really get on board with your ideas. So when people thought, what I was talking about was crazy. Once I got the first grant, people came around and then I got a second grant and then everybody, you know, um, was like, okay, well maybe this isn't so crazy after all.
Speaker 2 00:28:05 And so that's kinda how it went, you know, and there are definitely times where it was beyond challenging and hard. Um, but I think, I think for me it was the, one of the best decisions, career decisions, because it really sets me apart from my colleagues. It really, I approach research very differently because my training is very different than a traditional ecology evolution or biology background. And so I think about questions differently, like research questions of a different lens, um, particular tools and methodologies are different. And it also really stands out when you're in a department that focuses on humans and you say you study elephants. And so that's also very helpful in just research recognition, funding, um, things along those lines. And it was a conscious decision to stay because now I'm in the school of public health. So to stay in a similar environment and not transition to like a biology department for my post-doc, but to balance it with a more traditional background as well.
Speaker 2 00:29:18 So David Alison school, public health is my primary mentor. And then my co mentor is Michael Wasserman, who is a more traditional, he studies primates, not elephants, but he asked a lot of the questions I asked about elephants just in primates field work things along those lines. So he provides this area that maybe I didn't get as much training in as I would have had during my PhD, if I was in a traditional ecology department. I mean, I definitely took courses, you know, um, in that area during my PhD, but I've kind of tried to marry those two together now to make sure that there are deficiencies or blinders and aspects that I should be aware of when it comes to my research and questions that I'm asking. Um, so yeah, that's, that's kinda how, how it all transpired.
Speaker 1 00:30:15 And that's, that's one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you is because, you know, I love elephants, a lot of people listening to this and love elephants and how you were able to take your current opportunity, which was, you know, this awesome nutrition, science, PhD opportunity, and you were still able to find a way to study what you loved and still make it applicable. Like you, you took the crazy route and you made it work from determination, grit, you know, all the things I'm sure there was some I'm sure there were some days were a little rough when you make the score
Speaker 2 00:30:57 Again, like young people listening and academia and research. It's not a easy route. And I think at least when I was a PhD, I think it's pretty similar stats. Now only 10% of PhDs actually get a faculty position and a university, right. It's not a very, um, easy route to take. And so to do anything that kind of sets you apart, I think is very valuable, but also you need to have convictions and you need to believe in yourself and you need to have kind of like that swag is as it relates to your research and, and your direction. And so if you want to do a, but that's not an option, but you can do B take that and then just leverage that to help you ultimately get to a, and that's definitely what I did. And I mean, again, you have to be flexible.
Speaker 2 00:31:56 You cannot be rigid by any means, but you can be flexible while keeping mind what is important to you, what your angle is. Right. So when I started my PhD in 2012, I was again naive about what a PhD was. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do it in this many years. I'm going to get right back to Africa and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then quickly realized, okay, that's not how it works. And now I've created connections within zoos that have proven to be immensely important to my career. I have also realized that research I'm doing with elephants in zoos can compliment the research I'm doing in the field because you can just do so much more than you can in the field. But then I could also take the studies I'm doing in the field to help elephants in zoos.
Speaker 2 00:32:55 And so they're complimentary. And especially when I first started my PhD, I was told I was going to have to choose a side. I'm going to have to either be with like field biology or I'm going to have to be with zoos. And I didn't understand why, why do I have to pick one side when they both have so many advantages that could help the other? And so I decided that's what I was going to do. I'm going to keep one foot in each world and have them compliment each other and leverage them for what they're, what they provide me with. And so that's what I still do. I have projects in Africa. I have projects in zoos. We have some up and coming projects in Southeast Asia, you know, and again also I didn't pick African or Asian elephants. Um, but it wasn't that, that wasn't a CA the African and Asian that wasn't necessarily a conscious choice.
Speaker 2 00:33:54 It's just, again, being flexible and taking opportunities and rolling with them. Um, but you just have to kind of realize sometimes you can't make your square peg fit in the circle hole if you wanted to. Um, but you need to, I mean, I I'm, I've been successful today because I had great mentors who put me in positions to succeed, who trusted what I was saying and believed in what I wanted to do. Um, and so you just have to be aware of all these different factors that influence and contribute to, to where you get to. Um, and you can just have belief in yourself though, you know, cause it is, it's not always easy. Most times it's not easy.
Speaker 1 00:34:46 Yeah, no, it sounds like those mentors were really the game changer. I have a few of those in my life too, that I have that I owe so much. And yeah, no, that's awesome that you had some in your life as well. Um, so let's actually get to some of the cool stuff you've done. Like let's get to the cool shit, like, okay. Cause I know when you and I were on the phone, I mean, we just went down the rabbit holes and it was glorious. So tell me some of this stuff. I know we talked about fours Ellie's we talked about like human aging and elephants. I mean, let's chat about it. So what were, maybe even like the order of your research, I don't care, but which, which project do you want to chat about or all of them
Speaker 2 00:35:31 Always happy to nerd out on elephants themselves. So yes, let's do. Um, obviously I'm biased, but they're amazing. Uh, maybe I'll try to do a chronologically because maybe it'll make more sense. Um, potentially. So, um, as I mentioned, you know, nutrition, sciences, and elephants, those with zoos and body composition and, and whatnot. But because of that, the types of seminars I was going to didn't really focus on, you know, ecology and wildlife and focused on human health and obesity related comorbidities. And so I was constantly being exposed to that area of research. And then the more I learned about elephants, um, and really started becoming proficient in elephant physiology and, and what was going on with elephants and zoos and elephants in the wild, just things started to kind of come together for me and, and seeing overlaps and similarities. And, and so it first started, gosh, let me, I'm trying to think.
Speaker 2 00:36:48 So it first started, I think a year or two towards the end of my, my, uh, PhD, one of my committee members, Steve Austin, who works at university of Alabama is the department head of there. Um, the head of the biology department. We still work together. He's an aging guy. And because I was doing elephants in a department that focused on humans, I constantly had to learn how to articulate why that was and how elephant relate to human health, how they can benefit human health. And at the beginning, it was very tricky and difficult for me. I wasn't sure. Um, you know, I got into it because I love elephants. And I was like, well, I'm in this department. I love elephants. Uh, you know, I wasn't thinking, Hey, how, how do they relate? It's just like, I want to study elephants. Um, but I had to start figuring out how to answer that question. And one of the things that popped out quite easily is their lifespan and their, the second longest terrestrial mammal behind humans. So they can live into their seventies. Um, there are some Asian elephants in range countries that are documented to be in their eighties. Right. So that's average, but, um, there that is possible. And so him being an age aging guy who is going to speak, I don't remember the order of this. So I think this was before. Yeah, I think it was before he was invited
Speaker 3 00:38:36 To give a talk
Speaker 2 00:38:37 To the diversity council at the NIH. So the NIH, the national Institute on aging, it's one of the institutes of the national NIH, national institutes of health. So if people aren't familiar listening, like they're familiar with the name Dr. Fowchee, uh, because of COVID and everything. So he's the director of one of the institutes there with infectious diseases. So it is the largest government funded organization that focuses on human health research. And so all these different institutes focus on different aspects of that. So for the Nia that focuses on aging. And so if you wanted to write a grant on aging, you'd submit it to them. So he was invited to give a talk and was asked to bring a student, um, to give a talk as well. And ignorance is amazing sometimes. And being naive is amazing sometimes, cause I didn't know what I was walking into or who I was even talking to.
Speaker 2 00:39:34 I pretty much, I gave a presentation on the journey of my PhD, which included elephants and thinking outside the box and how I thought elephants could be used as a translational model for human health. And now I know some of the biggest Nia names were there, but at the time was so I had no idea who I was talking to, which was again, phenomenal because it makes you less nervous when you're presenting. You know, I gave this talk about elephants and, and how this is what I've learned from them. And this is where I think we can continue to learn from them and have this bi-directional relationship where the research helps elephants, but the research could also help humans. And so, you know, was asked some questions, this and that. Um, but those kinds of like my first seed and, uh, both planting elephants and aging for the Nia.
Speaker 2 00:40:32 Um, but also with me and starting to pivot, I didn't realize this at the time, this is all hindsight. Um, and then I put in, uh, a supplement, a diversity supplement the Nia for additional funding to use the elephant, to understand the relationship between, um, arthritis and reproductive hormones. So women develop arthritis at a higher prevalency than, than men, and that rate increases after menopause. And so that suggests there's this hormonal component, a sex hormone component to it. But that being said, the research out there is so conflicting. And so there's, you know, I saw this opportunity to leverage elephant, to kind of look at it and I got the diversity supplement and I was kind of like my first step with moving elephants and aging and targeting the Nia, an Institute that really focuses human health and had also never saw proposal brought to them about elephants.
Speaker 2 00:41:40 Um, and then around that time, I starting to, to think about my post-doc and figure out what was next. And I was doing a lot of reading and I came across a paper about forest elephants. And a lot of people don't know that what, that there's an animal called the forest elephants. So just real quick tangent, um, when people think African elephant, they're thinking the Savannah elephant, uh, but they're actually someone are you I'm in that camp that there's two species of African elephant, the forced elephant in the Savannah elephant. And so we'll get into those when I get to that part of my research, but basically found this paper about forest elephants and Savannah elephants typically have their first calf between 11 and 14 years of age. And this paper showed that forest elephants had their first calf on average about, um, close to like a decade later, like around, uh, 20 ish or so.
Speaker 2 00:42:39 Right. And to me, I, I was blown away. I was blown away. Why would, you know, for all intents and purposes, the goal is to pass on your genetics. So if you're physiologically capable and we didn't know if this is true or not, but if you're physiologically capable to pass on your genes at the age of 10, why would you wait so many years, several years later? Um, and the forest elephant is very understudied because they're very cryptic. They live in these dense habitats. It's hard to get at them. Savannah elephants are a lot easier to study. That's why people probably don't know about forest elephants so much and why scientists don't know as much about them. And so I started writing grants for my postdoc that focused on that. Why are forced elephants reproducing later? Is this just a thing from one population? Cause this was, these data came from just a population Central African Republic.
Speaker 2 00:43:40 So is this specific to them or is this general to all force elephants? What is the reproductive cycle for, for self that we don't know that? So like for humans, our menstrual cycle, you know, it's approximately like a month, right? 20 ish days for four elephants, they're equivalent as an estrous cycle, uh, for like Savannah and Asian elephant. It's about 14 to 16 weeks. So they have three or four cycles per year, whereas we have, you know, monthly, um, is that the case for forest elephants? And if so, do they start cycling and become reproductively mature at later ages? And that's why we're seeing calves later or is it because of other factors? And so ultimately that got funded once I came here to ICU and what I was interested in looking at was how human, um, activities influence that are we, um, associated with that are there different environmental factors associated with that?
Speaker 2 00:44:45 And so this study is ongoing currently, um, and is occurring in two different two different countries. So in the Republic of Congo where there's really low human population density and in Uganda where there's really high population density. So he Bali national park is where we work out of. And it's kind of like an Island surrounded by, um, humanized landscape and a Congo, uh, working at no belly, a national park and it is pristine for so, um, all right. So a couple of differences between forest elephants and Savannah elephants. So, um, forest elephants are much smaller. They're the smallest of all three. So the smallest of four Savannah and Asian elephants. Um, whereas let's say on average, we're going to be very loose with this because there is a lot of sexual dimorphism and elephants, but let's say on average, a Savanna elephant is about 11 and a half feet tall at their shoulder.
Speaker 2 00:45:48 A forest elephants are more like seven and a half to eight feet and probably weigh about half as much. So they're, they're much smaller. They have these ears that are much more rounded than the Savannah elephant. So they still kind of have that look of the continent of Africa, which by the way, if anyone's ever trying to tell the difference between the Asian elephant, an African elephant, that's the best way to do it. Um, their tusks are straight, like much straighter and thinner. Typically have a pinkish hue to them which reflects the minerals in their diet. And speaking of diet, their diet consists a lot more fruits, uh, where Savannah, elephants, it's a lot more browse like, you know, branches and leaves and, and stuff like that. Um, as the name says, they live in the forest, not on the Savannah. So they evolve to live in the forest of central Africa.
Speaker 2 00:46:38 And the majority of forest elephants today are found in five countries. So that's the democratic Republic of Congo, the Republic of Congo, the bone Cameroon in Central African Republic. And the, the state of forest elephants is much more dire than Savannah elephants because there's a lot less of them. They're not as well known. And poaching has been a problem for them even before some of the poaching crisises crisis started in Eastern and Southern Africa. So where we believe there's an estimated 350 to 400,000 Savannah elephants, there's probably, and this is a really rough number, cause it's just so hard to see them. But based off of like dunk count, it's thought that there's somewhere around 50,000 for elephants, but within the past decade, the stronghold populations have decreased between 60 and 80%. So the numbers are really going down. And the reason this is also really important comes back to how they're classified.
Speaker 2 00:47:45 So because forest and Savannah, elephants are classified as one species, um, by all international governing bodies, regulatory bodies, like societies and ICN and things like that. They are classified as threatened based off the population numbers. But if you were to divide them out and just focus on forest elephants themselves, uh, they should be classified as endangered. And there's a lot of hesitancy to separate them as two species because they can interbreed and their offspring, which we term hybrids are reproductively viable and can have their own babies. Right. And so that means that if you were to see how that messes it up quite a bit, yeah. It gets a little muddy. And so if you're going to have force elephants and Savannah elephants with protection, what happens with the hybrids and, um, because they don't get formal protection, only the pure quote unquote pure species get the protection.
Speaker 2 00:48:45 And so part of the request is for more data to know, well, how many hybrids are out there? Where are they located? And so an offshoot of my Congo Uganda project actually focuses on that. And that's because for those that are less familiar with the geography in Africa, the democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda share a border. So the Eastern border of the democratic Republic of Congo, um, sits next to the Western border of Uganda. And there's an area there called the Albertine rift. And this area has, um, is home to the largest known hybrid population. And so that's a very unique opportunity to study the hybrids. And so with my collaborator, Nelson ting, he is running genetics and I'm running hormone analysis on fecal samples we're collecting. So these fecal samples, I was already collecting for this other project to look at reproduction and forest elephants, and what may impact it.
Speaker 2 00:49:47 We're now just pairing it with genetics, which we were already going to do. Um, because in Uganda we don't have the opportunity to visually see the elephant. So when we collect down, we don't know who's it from? Are you Savannah forest or hybrid? It's now we're just expanding our collection. So where we're just going to be in one national park. Now we're spreading out to a few different ones. And what we're doing is one kind of mapping the distribution of hybrid elephants. So to see where are they located and how many are there, but then we're also comparing how do hybrids relate or compared to their parental species. So within one national park, you can have forced elephants, Savannah, elephants, and hybrids. So they're all exposed to the same environmental factors, same stressors, same, um, human human disturbances, but does one species adapt better than another?
Speaker 2 00:50:49 And how do hybrids fit into that? So that's where my research comes in. I look at a lot of different, let's say health biomarkers, a lot of hormones in dunk samples. And I use that to try to get an assessment of the health status of that elephant taking into account other factors like rain, um, vegetation, quality, uh, things along those lines, like environmental factors, including, um, like forest cover and stuff like that. So we're trying to understand what's going on with these hybrid elephants and hope that the results and data we're collecting, we can then provide to the ICN and societies to help with the decision should force in Savannah, elephants be classified as two different species or just one species. So this, this project in particular has a lot of implications on, um, the conservation status of African elephant. It's I think really cool.
Speaker 2 00:51:55 Uh, again, because forest elephants are so unknown, pretty much everything we're doing is some of the first data on these populations. Um, and if not the first really limited. So it's really valuable. It's really incredible. It, it was slightly derailed. All my studies were derailed because of COVID. Um, and so we had a pause in our collection, but, um, our field team is still collecting as of this past December. They're able to start going back in and collecting, uh, dunk samples. So that's really exciting stuff. Um, but to kind of go back to then how all this kind of continued is again, being the school of public health. I had to continuously think of how do elephants relate to human health. And so I continue to work and expand on that. And so I have another project in Zambia with a small offshoot in South Africa, looking at orphaned elephants.
Speaker 2 00:53:05 And so children who experienced early life adversity, um, are at increased risk for developing a lot of different diseases later in life and have an earlier mortality risk. So what I'm doing is I'm studying orphan elephants who became orphaned because they saw mom get killed for her ivory. So poaching event, which is very traumatic for an elephant. So similar to us, they rely on their family. They're very social. They learn from mom and grandma and aunts and cousins, what it means to be an elephant, just like how we teach our children, how to be good citizens. They learn how to be a good elephant. Um, through this way, they learn how to, you know, socialize and, and all those types of aspects that are necessary for their survival. Uh, they also have a tremendous memory, right? Everyone probably has heard an elephant, never forgets. So they have this capacity to actually develop something that is similar to post-traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 2 00:54:10 They are very emotionally complex, and here's an opportunity where some babies, some cabs were randomly became orphaned while others did not. Right. So this is a natural experiment where I can compare orphaned elephants living in this national park, um, at this orphanage and to, I should say to similarly aged wild elephants living in the same national park, again, similar environmental factors, but here you have one group where they're babies living in intact herds in a normal elephant society. And then you have another population that are makeshift herds of all, uh, orphaned elephants that first get hand reared by humans. And then once they're past a certain point are just, you know, trying to learn to be an elephant. So we're looking at behavioral outcomes, we're looking at health outcomes and trying to then see first for the elephant health. Like how does this experience impact the elephant's health and behavior?
Speaker 2 00:55:30 Again, we had such high rates of poaching that a lot of our populations will now be based on orphans. Are they, are they good moms without having that role model? You know, are they as attentive as they should be? Are they more, uh, aggressive? Are they more anxious then? You know, then their quote unquote controls those elephants that live in intact herds of because they didn't have those role models because they didn't have, um, those opportunities to see how to be a good mom. You know, so first-time moms have a higher risk for calf mortality than others, but they also get a lot more help from the herd to help them. So there's this, let's say understanding within the elephant community that first-time moms need more help, right? This is all new for them. And it's very, um, new and, you know, so here's my experience and, and whatnot.
Speaker 2 00:56:30 So, um, again, how does that impact these orphaned, uh, elephants? And then how can we take that information to help us understand children and adults who had experienced child adversity? Um, it's a way to discuss a very sensitive topic in a more comfortable space when you're talking about elephants and that people, it's a way to leverage a snack natural experiment that you wouldn't be able to do with people, um, where you could look at causal inferences now, because this were, these were random events. It wasn't like I assigned, or wasn't like, you know, um, these like certain circumstances are associated with, um, more early life adversity. And so they're all confounded in there and because of their emotional complexity and their memory and their social bonds and their longevity, it is an app, um, translational model, as well as some additional like physiological mechanisms that elephants are unique in having.
Speaker 2 00:57:44 Um, so that's another study that we have going on. And then I'm continuing to develop that with, um, neuro neuro degeneration and aging using the elephant. So Alzheimer's disease is a serious public health concern. As people continue to get older, uh, the risks increase and the prevalence increases and elephants evolved as I mentioned to live in their seventies, right? It's only recently that humans have been able to get to that similar lifespan because of the help of science and medicine, but elephants don't have that. So they must've evolved certain protective mechanisms to make sure that they're able to reach those ages where memory is very important. So elephant herds are led by a matriarch. So a female elephant who is typically, um, of an older age, usually the oldest elephant, and she's this repository of information. So she really needs to have a good memory and remember, Hey, where's the food and water during drought whose friend who's foe.
Speaker 2 00:58:52 And those herds that have older females are more successful, both in terms of fitness, a reproduction and survival. So there are a couple of different potential mechanisms biologically that this might be. And so I'm trying to leverage those and, um, to understand one, our elephants, do, they kind of have this predisposition to be protected against neurodegeneration. And if that's the case, what is that mechanism there are, what are those mechanisms there and try to take that information to help humans as we age and in cognitive fitness and protection and stuff like that. Um, so that's kind of the other side of the coin. So I have, you know, one area of research that is for elephants and their health, and that's kind of starting to morph into the interactions between humans and wildlife humans, elephants, and then the environment. So this one health perspective, and then this other perspective or branch of my research, which is elephants and aging. I hope that was really long. So I hope that because, I mean, I just have a lot of projects. I mean, I didn't even touch on another project, but would you or facial recognition and elephants. And so there's just a lot of like, you know, things happening. And, uh, I was trying to provide some background information that was relevant to the people that follow what it is we're doing.
Speaker 1 01:00:26 Thanks again, for listening to this episode of rewild ology, if you like, what you heard hit that subscribe button. So you never miss a future episode. Do you have an environmental organization travel story or research that you'd like to share? Let me know <inaudible> dot com until next time friends together, we will. Rewild the planet.
