Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hey listener. Welcome back to rewild ology, where we explore conservation travel and reevaluating the planet. I'm your host, Rick Muchow, Norman conservation, biologists, and world traveler. If you've listened to the show before then you are well aware that we're not scared to talk about taboo or uncomfortable topics. If this is your first time tuning in welcome. I love that you're here and you'll soon. Hear why this show is different than most nature podcasts. Today. I'm chatting with Annelise shank who studies a rather dark, but important topic. Genocide, we humans are a violent species, although one could argue not near as violent as we used to be. And if you question that at all, just go listen to an episode of hardcore history by Dan Carlin, humans have done some pretty FDIC things in the past. And as a woman, I am so glad we've evolved from James calm times.
Speaker 1 00:01:06 Anyways, in today's show Ana and I chat in depth about the 1994 Rwanda genocide. She discovered her passion for the topic. When she joined a study abroad trip and undergrad to learn more about the event, she was hooked. It combined her curiosity and human psychology, her love of history, and how to help communities avoid similar charities in the future. Don't worry. There's a strong conservation undertone throughout the episode. We talk about how human violence affects local wildlife, especially during genocides and how Rwanda has become a leader in conservation famous for its local superstar. Mountain gorillas Ana refers to a lot of resources throughout the chat, which I've provided in the show notes at rebar, all.com. The more we know about this concept, the more we are equipped to avoid it in the future. As always, if you're digging the show, be sure to subscribe so that you can be notified when a new episode drops.
Speaker 1 00:02:04 I'd also love to hear what you think by leaving a review on Apple podcasts or commenting on the episode on reward. Algae's YouTube channel. Of course you can DM on
[email protected] and now onto my chat with Ana. Well, sweet. I'm so excited to have you here today. Ana, we are going to have a freaking blast. I know you will, as cause every single time we've talked, it's been so much fun. Um, so to begin, let's just go away on back because I think the best way to put this all together is to start from the very beginning. So take me back to your childhood. What was it like, you know, where did you grow up? All the, all those things. Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up pretty close to where I'm currently living. Um, I'm from Delaware, Ohio, which is right outside Columbus. Like
Speaker 2 00:03:00 Maybe the 30 minute drive. And I grew up on a hobby farm probably is the best way to classify it. Um, so when I was born, my parents had cows, but when I say cows, I need like four cows, not like a giant herd or anything. They only owned like two and a half acres. Um, but as we got older, um, I have a little sister, but they wanted us to start doing, um, four each and just kind of getting into agriculture and things like that. Um, so they got goats because they were a lot more comfortable with their second grader being around a bunch of boots and multiple large cows. That makes sense pretty much. Yeah. You know, very logical rational choice. So I probably between, um, being in second grade and then my senior year of high school, we probably had over 250 goats at any various point, not altogether, but just like, I think we counted it maybe a couple of years ago and we're like, Oh my gosh, we had a lot of animals over that large set of time.
Speaker 2 00:04:04 Um, so I mean, growing up, I always thought I wanted to be a vet because, you know, I'm surrounded by animals. We always had multiple dogs had like three or four barn cats at any given time. We had rabbits at one point, just a wide variety of animals. And then, um, my other connection with wildlife is that my mom works at the Columbia student aquarium, um, as their landscape architect. Um, so she does a lot of project design and, you know, plans, exhibits, and she's been doing that since I've been alive. Um, so, you know, I got free like zoo classes and summer camps. So if I was at the zoo, which was only 10 minutes from our house, probably two or three days a week for most of the summer during my childhood, um, and you know, the waterpark and all that stuff, but I just kind of grew up surrounded by conservation.
Speaker 2 00:04:58 It's always seemed very second nature to me. Um, and you know, as I've gotten older, I realized I'm horrible at math and science, um, specifically the math portion of that. Um, so I've kind of deviated from, you know, the idea of being of that. And it's changed multiple times as to what I want to do. Um, in high school it was, I wanted to be a lawyer. Um, and then I went into college at Ohio state and I decided to do psychology and criminology for my majors because that seemed applicable to being a lawyer and very quickly decided that was not what I wanted to do, a psychologist.
Speaker 2 00:05:33 And then I applied to grad school and that kind of fell through and I kind of took a step back and kind of how I got into the nonprofit I'm working with today is, um, during my going into my junior year of undergrad, I did a study abroad, um, called genocide and its aftermath in Rwanda, um, through Ohio state, the professor that was leading it is absolutely, and she's highly regarded in the field. Uh, her name is Dr. Holly grim. Um, and she, it was a very small intimate study abroad, like 12 people. I mean, just spent three weeks in Rwanda learning about, um, basically the timeline of the genocide. So Y for different sociological theories, we think it occurred and how it compares to other genocides from different points in time and ones that we think might occur in the future and, you know, the actual events of the genocide.
Speaker 2 00:06:27 And then the last week we really focused on, you know, how for Wanda has healed from these events and how it kind of can be seen as, you know, really it's not a gold standard because that's the wrong connotation is the ideal outcome in a lot of ways for healing and, you know, being a unified nation again. Um, so that study abroad kind of changed a lot of my outlook on what I wanted to do. Long-term and I'm now currently, um, working with a nonprofit it's called miss Humira. Um, and they work in Rwanda, was disabled women to just do jobs training and reproductive health training. And it's a wonderful program. And then, um, you know, I graduated back in the spring, um, and I'm in the process of applying to grad schools again next, or this upcoming fall tentatively, um, for sociology PhDs. So we'll see what happens, but yeah, that's kind of childhood and college
Speaker 1 00:07:27 All in one nutshell, like the super cool thing. Cause I trained you right
Speaker 2 00:07:31 Back. Yeah. Back
Speaker 1 00:07:34 In the day. Oh my gosh. That's so fun. How old do you think you were at that time?
Speaker 2 00:07:39 I think I was 16 because it was the first year. So I worked at the zoo with Brooke. That was my first job. I've had it for like six years. Um, but yeah, it was 16 and worked at the zoo as well as having gone to summer camp there for years and you train and you know how to do like parking booths and our guest relations department. You're the same person you're bubbly and wonderful.
Speaker 1 00:08:09 Really the groundwork there, the zoo. Um, for sure. It's just like Soho. It's just so fun. How life comes full circle like that. Like who would think that at that time, that me just training you on how to do a parking booth and here six, six years later, life has come back full circle. And now where you're talking about some very deep stuff, some very deep stuff, but very important stuff. And then also this phenomenal nonprofit that you are a part of. So
Speaker 2 00:08:45 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:08:47 Um, so, so let's go back. Um, so I I'm, I'm so excited. Ugh. That's not the right word. I'm so grateful that you an expert or way more knowledgeable in this topic than most of us, because a lot of us, anytime we hear about a genocide or any time we hear about anything like this, we just cause it's, it's uncomfortable. And so we push it away. We don't know much about it. Um, I mean, everybody knows about the Holocaust, of course. And then I think for, and the little level, you know, people are at least aware of what happens to the native American. So like people at least know of the concept, I was love if you could really start to get down into it. So what is genocide? How does it happen? Um, and then if you want to use some case studies to like go into, and that would be great as well, but yeah, teach us, teach us what this is.
Speaker 2 00:09:41 And I will say again, I have an undergraduate degree in sociology and criminology specifically as psychology. So I'm in no way an expert on this either, but yeah, I have a little bit more background knowledge than I think most people would have. So genocide is the intentional removal of a population basically. Um, that population can be basically any definition. Um, it can be a race, it can be, which has a broad definition race. Oftentimes isn't what we think of as in a sociological sense, as we do in the U S of like black and white and Asian and all of that, there's a lot of subsets of race throughout the world. Um, so like in Rwanda, for example, um, in our mind there are there black people that they designed their social groups largely in the racial groups, um, by class. So they had the Hutu and Tutsi and they actually have a third group called the trial that we don't talk about a lot, um, who were considered techni people.
Speaker 2 00:10:44 Um, but the Hootsuite and the Tutsi reclassified by a lot of colonial settlers as people kind of an arbitrary terms, as people who had different sides of news is, um, or who owned more cows was actually a large identifier of it. So if you had 10 or more accounts you were to see, and if you had less than 10 cows, you were, who do, um, and very much across Africa, we see a theme with colonialism of those classes being, um, very arbitrarily placed on people. So prior to colonization, um, and they, Armando was colonized by Belgium primarily. Um, they really didn't have any idea of race. Um, but when the colonists came in, they gave out ID cards and started making rules in their society based around different races and classes of people. Um, which again, that's just to reiterate the point that, you know, what we think of as race in the United States is not a universal, um, definition of race or what comes to mind for a lot of Americans.
Speaker 2 00:11:52 Isn't the same thing that comes to mind to someone, um, in Africa or even in Europe, occasionally. Um, but yeah, genocide, um, is frequently, um, just the intentional removal of a social or a group. Um, so it can be religious. Um, there's something going on right now that many will argue is, or is not a genocide depending on what country you're from and what the UN says, which is a me and Mar, and that is a religious based, uh, mass atrocity or, uh, activist silence at the moment, um, between a group of Muslims and the Buddhists there. Um, so yeah, genocide can be, um, any group being intentionally exterminated for lack of a better word. Um, and it doesn't have to be necessarily killing. Um, it can be things like genital mutilation, um, anything that prevents the reproduction of a group or the growth of the group.
Speaker 2 00:12:50 Um, so it can also be cultural genocide, um, which is a lot of the times what people think of when they think of the native Americans. Um, so yes, we did give them like smallpox blankets and things like that that actually tilt them. But we also put their culture to the side and try to reform them into making them become, um, more white or more like us. Um, so that removal from them historic or the removal of their culture historically can also be considered, um, a cultural genocide. So it's a term that can be used to, um, describe a lot of conflicts. And a lot of people do use the word mass violence as a synonym because genocide can, is it just hold some legal standing with like the UN and things like that. Cause we do have statutes against genocide that were really big and it is a very new term. Um, it was coined right after the Holocaust, um, by the sociologist. So it's a newer term. So a lot of older conflicts have been that weren't necessarily called a genocide first or then went back in history and changed their definition. So that's what genocide is. And I have forgotten your other question.
Speaker 1 00:14:03 No, that was good. No, so like the perfect example then, um, I, or at least one that I think that since it was so close to you and you studied it hardcore, what happened in Rwanda? So when you went over and studied what happened?
Speaker 2 00:14:20 Yeah. So there's a lot of different narratives surrounding it. Um, but basically 1994, um, they call it the genocide against the Tutsi. Um, so Susie were considered more upper-class citizens and then the Hutu were considered lower class citizens. And very short narrative is that basically there was a major plane crash, um, that involves the death of, uh, the president of Rwanda at the time, many of his, um, close members of his cabinet and things like that. Um, and he was Hutu. Um, so prior to his plane crash, there had been, um, a growing narrative, um, and a very strong divide between Hutus and Tutsis. Um, so you had like roll call and school a lot of the time. Um, they would say your name and then whether you were Hutu or Tutsi afterwards and a lot of the time. Yeah. Um, so there was a very clear narrative of who belonged to what class, because it wasn't necessarily visually apparent, like I was saying earlier, it's considered racial, but it, the race wasn't something that people could look at you and say what you were for the most part.
Speaker 2 00:15:36 Um, so, you know, there was a growing divide and there had been a lot of jargon and propaganda being published prior to the plane crash surrounding, um, like the Tutsis are trying to destroy the Hutu and we must protect ourselves. Uh, and it was just some extent going both ways. Um, but there had been, um, people calling each other cockroaches, which is another big signal of genocide is when we dehumanize a group through me and calling, um, that's one of our big red flags that we look for, um, on what might turn into a genocide. Um, so there had been a lot of buildup beforehand. It's not just to say a plane crashed and genocide
Speaker 3 00:16:20 Right.
Speaker 2 00:16:21 Constantly, and a lot of smaller, um, I don't want to say microaggressions, but similar to that occurring beforehand. Um, and so when his plane crashed, they locked down the capital of Kigali, um, or ever wanted to golly. Um, and he, or they put up real barricades and basically they were checking everybody's ID cards. Um, and people couldn't leave the Providence. They were in, um, without going through a checkpoint. And it was, it was basically automatic lockdown. Um, and from that point forward, there were about a hundred days of violence in which neighbors were turning their neighbors in because you knew who was Hutu or Tutsi. Um, cause it was just so common in the dialogue. There were basically malicious. Um, so homegrown militias that were forming of Hutus that were going out to, um, kill Tutsi and these kind of store or starting small hunting groups.
Speaker 2 00:17:22 And the military was also involved in this. And so they were actively incentivizing people to go out and exterminate Tootsie was, um, often the verbiage use. Um, so this happened for about a hundred days and it's one of the shorter genocides actually. Um, one of the reasons it's heavily studied is because it is pretty clear cut from a beginning to an end point, which we'll get to the end point in a second. Um, but the plane crash is pretty much when most historians are going to say the genocide started and then a hundred days later, um, it's a couple, obviously there was a mass refugee crisis that occurred during this. So individuals who were able to flee left for Wanda and went to neighboring countries like Burundi. So someone by the name of Paul <inaudible>, who is actually the current president of Rwanda, um, was one of those individuals, um, who was Tutsi, who, um, Belinda, Bernie, he got together his own militia of Tutsis and they reentered Rwanda and works their way back into Kigali, which is at the center of Rwanda, um, slowly but surely and liberated basically in the factory at that point.
Speaker 2 00:18:35 Um, and that clearly marks the end of it. So it's, like I said, studied pretty heavily just because we haven't beginning and an end and it's a shorter conflict. A lot of other conflicts, um, like Darfur right now has been going on for since 2004. So it's a very long conflict. So it's very difficult to study because there's so many global players, this one is very clear cut of two groups conflicting for a short period of time. Um, that is what happened with the 1994 genocide. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:19:10 So was there like a leader that was like, go out and kill all the Tutsi? Was there someone who Rose up as like, I don't want to say the evil figure, but kind of if we're painting it that way, was there someone that was like, this is all the Tutsi's fault. We all, we need to go out and exterminate them all or was it like a collective understanding, but how did it escalate to the point where extermination was the answer?
Speaker 2 00:19:35 Yeah, absolutely. So the president who passed, I am blanking on names and I apologize. Um, the president who died in the plane crash, um, had had similar rhetoric to that prior to his death. Um, the rhetoric used by, um, the army and the Hutus that were going out and forming militias was that Tutsis had shot down his plane. So that was kind of the further escalation point. Um, there was already a lot of issues surrounding the two social groups. He had used the inflammatory verbiage to describe that social group. And then you had, um, the false accusation. We don't actually know who shot down the plane to this day. Um, it's likely that it was someone, um, who was working for him actually. But again, they honestly do not know to this day who shot it down. Um, but it was very unlikely that it was Tutsi, but that likely false accusation is what caused a lot of the further escalation.
Speaker 2 00:20:40 Um, but there wasn't any individual, which is actually, um, one of the things that scares people a lot about it is that it was genuinely neighbors turning on neighbors. Um, so a big part of the genocide was that, um, broadcast radio was being used, um, very heavily to push out this propaganda. So we need a sort of remote country. Um, a lot of Hills it's not easily traveled by foot. So a lot of people relying on radio transmission to communicate with others, to get their news sources. And so there was pretty much a total overhaul of all radio and it was pretty much turned entirely into, um, propaganda radio. So, you know, radio broadcasters telling you that your neighbor tried to kill the president and things like that really turned into people turning on their neighbors. So there are stories of people who were like, we had dinner with them on a weekly basis and we were really close and then they tried to, or did kill my family. Like that is why it was so, yeah, excuse me, the heebie jeebies, like why it was so chilling for a lot of people. Um, it is horrifying. I don't mean to sound shipper like that. Yeah, I do. I have studied it a lot and I plan to study it a lot more in the future, um, as a topic. So it's one of those things where in my mind, this is just a normal conversation.
Speaker 1 00:22:14 Like I'm a biologist, like I figured get it. It's like, Oh, we're just talking about this, this and this. And it's like, wait, what did you just say? It was like, okay, I know I got to put it back in perspective that this is actually weird to anybody else that doesn't know what I'm talking about. I should probably put this in context, um, and not talk about it like this. No, I completely get it like when you're a scientist and that is the way you work, because I mean, you have to, I mean, to study a topic like this a needs studied, the needs is studied because one, we are a very violent species and just, I mean, why would we ever want to genocide again? You know, and just some of the stuff you were just saying just reminded me so much of what was happening in the us at the end of, you know, the last presidential campaign and man was scary.
Speaker 2 00:23:05 And what I will say is we haven't as a, you as the United States, we haven't hit any, we hit some of those morning points. Um, but we haven't hit most of that list. And I, sorry that I'm referring to listen, I cannot tell you what all is on there. Um, my brain is blanking, but
Speaker 1 00:23:22 Is it a simulator or something?
Speaker 2 00:23:25 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it absolutely is. Um, it's scary. Humans are very much group think, um, as a species and you see that at play with Rwanda, you see that at play with almost every single genocide. Um, so, you know, I think the big thing that I've taken away from my science, um, career thus far is, you know, it's kinda like what your parents tell you, you know, if everybody else is jumping off the cliff or are you just going to go do it cause somebody else's, it's a reminder to always take a step back in high stress situations or in emotionally strong situations. Even more importantly, I would say, and reevaluate the situation and say, well, what I normally do this, or am I doing this because everyone else is, or because I'm angry or because I'm stressed. Um, and I think just that pause is incredibly important and something I've personally taken away when I get worked up over something or, you know, I see everybody else doing something that I'm not quite sure about. Um, cause you know, most people will, unfortunately we've seen in studies, um, you know, do what everybody else is doing and not, uh, why they're doing it they'll know something's wrong and they won't stop what they're doing. They'll just continue. So yeah, you know, there's little life lessons to be learned with social science. Um, even if you're studying mass violence or something like that or large scale events. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:24:59 It's fascinating. It's fascinating. I mean, we are just completely, from a scientific standpoint, we are a very interesting species. And so I'm just curious. Um, so I just love evolutionary biology so much. Um, it could you, by chance, is there something that's in our DNA that just makes this more of a thing in our species? Um, I mean, I know a lot of species, you know, they, they do a lot of killing no within, you know, interest species stuff, but what is it about humans that it's, we feel it's okay to just kill our own kind.
Speaker 2 00:25:40 You know, I don't know from a specifically biological perspective, but I would say for me, social psychology perspective it's that we are just social creatures overall. Um, so it's a want and a need to fit into a group. Um, so you know, you, you really want to belong. And if everybody who you want to belong with is doing something like being angry at a different group, you're more inclined to do the same thing. Um, and it, you know, it goes to the extreme, unfortunately where, you know, they're committing violence against a different group or a group other than you. And you're more inclined to also commit violence against them because you want to sit in and there's also just the other, other, we don't like things that are not of our clan or of our group. So whenever we identify as our group, we try really hard to protect in the actively dislike, usually what is not familiar or belonging to us in that regard. So have
Speaker 4 00:26:44 Most genocides then been through just like with that, with that description that you gave have most been through, um, just people that look differently or also have, um, or is it like an equal mix of people looking different and just religious groups? Is it, is it just more of a mix or, um,
Speaker 2 00:27:01 Yeah, so there's definitely been, um, some research into that, but for the most part it's like even next it's not one or the other and a lot of the time there's interplay between the two. Um, so you can have ones where you religious. I mean, like even the Holocaust Jewish people are a religious group, but they also identify as a cultural group. And so those aren't always very clear boundaries. Um, it really is just fear of the other, I would say, um, that really leads to it overall.
Speaker 4 00:27:33 Hmm. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So how did, um, that amazing gentleman, who's now the Rwandan president? How did he get it to stop? How do you get a country that's hating and killing each other? How, how do you get it to stop?
Speaker 2 00:27:50 Yeah, so they pretty much a race. The concept of Hutu and Tutsi and Schwab, um, tries still kind of a thing, because like I mentioned, they're considered pygmy people or Dorf people, um, which aren't really politically correct terms, but it's what they're referred to in their country. And they actually live in the Hills mostly and are pretty much off the grid. Um, so they kind of still exist. Um, they also weren't really involved in the genocide for the most part, but he came back in and what is also fascinating about Rwanda is he had the option basically to do reprisal killings, which is what a lot of genocide prevention focuses on preventing. Um, because yes, you've stopped one group from killing the other, but what's to say that that same group, isn't incredibly mad about their family dying. And, um, so he, um, and it's why it's such a wonderful is I don't want to say wonderful story, but it really is an impressive feat that they overcame.
Speaker 2 00:28:56 Um, but he basically said there is no more who do, there is no more Tutsi, we're all Rwandan, which is something you'll hear over and over again, we're all Rwandan. Um, if you visit Rwanda and they're really proud of that. So they did, um, a lot of work individually, um, as societaly to overcome this, they had what's called, and this is really interesting from a human rights perspective, um, what are called good Chacha courts. And these are basically communal court systems. They set up and as took 10 years for them to get through all these cases, but they had community elders. So not people who were trained in law or anything like that, but you know, maybe somebody who had a lot of cows cause used to use cattle as a form of wealth and, um, a status symbol. So maybe someone who has a lot of cows and then someone who's considered, who's a doctor they might have on their committee.
Speaker 2 00:29:52 And then on a third person usually, um, who else who's also highly regarded in the community. So they have like a panel of three people and they would just reserve a day of the week and the entire community would come together, usually in like an open field or on a hillside. And they would have someone who was being accused of a crime and it wasn't necessarily genocide. A lot of this was like, they stole the roofing off my house when I fled the country or they took my cows or, you know, it, it didn't have to, it could be, they, I watched them killed my sibling, but it wasn't necessarily that, um, it was a lot of small claims to, um, or property based claims. Um, and they basically would spend one whole day as a community once a week until they got through all of their claims going through and hearing all of these cases and you would self represent both sides and it would just be okay, well, I saw this and community members of the community would chime in and say, yes, I also saw that.
Speaker 2 00:30:59 Or actually, no, I think it was this person. I saw them do that. Um, and it was almost a community dialogue. Um, it was much different than any court system we've seen in the U S or anything like that. And then the board of elders are highly regarded members of the community would make a verdict on whether or not that person was guilty and what their punishment was. Um, so they do have a lot of people go to prison. And a lot of research right now in Rwanda is looking at a reentry of people who've committed genocide back into the communities and how the community is accepting those individuals. And if they're, you know, estranged from their family or is there for me, for families welcoming them back in and just how they're getting along, how they're finding income, all of that. Um, so that's a big area of research that's coming out right now.
Speaker 2 00:31:50 Um, and a lot of the people I'm hoping to work with in grad school are studying that. Um, and then the advisor I mentioned earlier, Dr. Bran, um, as actually studied those two Jacia courts really heavily in her research, cause it's a pretty unique phenomena. Um, and it's actually something that we think could work with other future genocides or ongoing genocides to really help build community because it is your communities coming together. Um, and yeah, there's a lot of high tension, but it's good faith that, you know, people are going to listen to your claim or listen to your plea. Um, and then, you know, it's not a legal system that's necessarily deciding your fate it's people who also belong to that community. Um, so it's a really unifying process is what they're finding, but that's been a big component of, um, overcoming those labels and just healing as a community.
Speaker 2 00:32:43 And they also have a ton of monuments. There's a national day of remembrance on the date ended the hundred days, um, from beginning to end or kind of a solid period. Um, in Rwanda, they've done a lot to make sure that their future generation or that there's a grief period for people who lost individuals. And we will say, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. There's still plenty of people who fled and have not gone back. And this was in 1994 there's people who are still living in the U S or, um, you know, other countries that were refugees that have no plan of returning and are scared to, it's not a perfect process. And I don't think you'd ever hope for it to be, um, completely unifying, but it is one of the better outcomes we've seen, um, with genocide overall. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:33:37 I mean, that's even with the, those potentially not so great things. It does sound like from an overall standpoint, it has healed as much as one could hope for and such an awful situation like that, which is that's fantastic. Um, so, so what got you, so take me, I want to talk about you again, how did you get so involved in this particular topic? What was it about it that really drew you in and took you all the way halfway across the world to study it on the ground in person? Um, I would love like, talk me through that. Where did this idea come up and, and how did you get over across the world? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:34:25 Absolutely. Um, so I've kind of asked myself a similar question and I don't have a surefire answer as to what really led me to it. Um, I already said my mom is a landscape architect, but, um, my other parent is a funeral director. Um, so there's always been kind of something in the back of my head. That's been, I think, more comfortable with concepts like death than a lot of people. Um, I think I asked about it a lot earlier and part of it's growing up on a farm too. Like we had babies that died. Like they didn't make it necessarily it's, you know, part of the natural process of life. And I also grew up very Catholic. So death is a pretty core tenant of Christianity as a whole, but specifically Catholicism. So I think a lot of just little things in my life have always made me more comfortable with studying more McCobb topics I think is probably the better way to put it.
Speaker 2 00:35:25 But then, like I mentioned in college, um, and I mean, I didn't have any intent of studying anything like this at any point really, or was it a lot of intent, but, um, I really loved social psychology. I was finding, um, I worked in a social psychology research lab, um, my sophomore year of college and a little bit of my junior year, and I've always liked political science a lot and I've loved history. So I've always struggled to find something where I'm like, Holy social science. I like psychology and I like history, but I don't really know how to combine those or if I can combine those. Um, and there was also studying criminology on the side, cause I was like, well, if I decide, I want to be a lawyer that probably looks good on a resume or a CV. Um, and I kind of just, I was told many times by, um, my parents that I should really study abroad and my grandparents were like, you should really study abroad.
Speaker 2 00:36:25 Like it's eyeopening to everybody who does it. We have the funds in your college account to, you know, do it find something you want to do and do it. It doesn't have to be like super applicable just to make sure you get credits for it. Basically. And I was looking at it and OSU offered to study abroad for my majors for psychology. It was like going to Germany and visiting like the whole Sigmund Freud and not a huge Freud fan and Vianna. And you know, like the first place a psychology. And I was like, it's not the worst study abroad trip, but it's Europe. And like, I think I would be content visiting Europe on a vacation and not learning about Freud and
Speaker 5 00:37:10 Carl Young and you know,
Speaker 2 00:37:12 Like I, I just don't think I'll get that much out of it. And then the other option was for sociology, the study abroad in Rwanda, and they'd only done it, I think one time. Um, I think I was in the second group that went and I just, it just was very interesting to me. And it was one of the things I was tired of. People hounding me about studying abroad. So I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go to Rwanda and study genocide. And I thought maybe that would shut people up. Be like, no, you really shouldn't do that. And it was a wonderful experience and I'm so incredibly glad I did it. Um, but it was just kind of one of those weird side paths I went down academically that I absolutely loved. I didn't think I would dislike it by any means, but I am incredibly surprised by how impassioned I am about it.
Speaker 2 00:38:02 And it really opened my eyes to a area of sociology that I didn't know it existed previously. Um, and sociology is wonderful because it does all the things I had just mentioned. I love it really heavily is influenced by social psychology. Um, most experiments experiments we have about social behavior, our social psychology experiments, um, like the Ash wine study is one of the ones with bear it's tonally referred to for group. Think of, you know, if you have a line of six people and everybody before the actual participant is in on it and they say, no, you know, the shorter line is longer. You're going to have that person who isn't in on the study, who is the actual participant say the same thing as everybody else, even though they can clearly visibly see that it's the incorrect answer. Um, so that's one. And then, um, yeah, there's just so many social psychology experiments that are fascinating, that were done in the 1950s, right after they were actually heavily influenced by, um, researchers who were affected by the Holocaust.
Speaker 2 00:39:08 And they had questions regarding what drives people to do this. This is horrible and I have faith in humanity, but how does this happen? Um, so, you know, Ashley's one of them and there's a couple shock experiments that are no longer considered ethical. Most of all, these are not, most of these are not getting reviewed by an IRB and pass and email, uh, you know, a lot of experiments that were actually influenced by these tragic events, um, of the Holocaust and things like that, that, you know, social psychology and then sociology use on a regular basis. And then, you know, the historical part of school that I always loved is a huge part of sociology too, because, or at least the genocide studies aspect of it, because, you know, the question you asked earlier, what, how did this happen is often answered at least in part by looking at, you know, how Rwanda was colonized and studying the historical aspects of Rwandan culture.
Speaker 2 00:40:14 Um, and that's a common theme throughout genocide studies is looking at well, why is these groups dislike each other? What happened that caused what could have been a small conflict to be mass violence or genocide? Um, so everything just kind of clicked when I did the study abroad, there was no real intent to go into this. I had the Dr. Bram asked me to during the abroad trip, she was like, are you going to go to grad school for sociology? And I directly told her now I'm, I'm trying to be a clinical psychologist. And she's like, okay, well, you know what, that doesn't work out. Sociology would be a really good fit for you. It seems like because you're really interested in this and I, what I didn't get in for clinical psychology to a PhD program, I was like, you know what? I was so much happier when I was studying genocide abroad.
Speaker 2 00:41:08 Um, we're just studying it in general because it really does combine, you know, all of my passions. So yeah, that's, that's the long story of how we were at. Isn't it amazing how moments in our lives think our associates are actually the ones that we needed the most? Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those things where I got rejected from grad school for the time and then COVID hit. So I even had people emailing me back and being like, I'm sorry, like you didn't get into grad school, but also everyone who did get in is getting deferred a year or actually we have to cancel the program for this upcoming year and all sorts of stuff. And even the people who wrote letters of rec for me were like, honestly, you're probably better off not having gotten into a program in 2020 or in a cohort of 2020, because you're going to have school online and who knows what that's going to look like, and it's not going to be the same academic experience.
Speaker 2 00:42:09 So yeah, it's in, I don't know a weird blessing in disguise and I definitely needed that step back moment and wait, am I doing what my plan was or is, and do my plan and what I want to do and what I liked doing line up, because, you know, I wasn't, I am passionate about psychology. Like I can talk about mental health all day and how incredibly important it is. And I mean, I was going into clinical psychology, so I was going to study like anxiety and depression, which is incredibly prevalent, but I don't know if I'm cut out for sitting one-on-one with a client for eight hours a day and you know, not seeing a quick turnaround or anything like that. So it's really one of those. It was a good aha moment of like, Oh, this isn't like, yeah, I've been working towards this goal since my sophomore year of college.
Speaker 2 00:43:01 But I think I probably should have re-evaluated my goal in my junior year of college. Yeah. I definitely do the exact same thing right. At the end of college as well. So my life completely flipped upside down. Very, very, very similar story. And it's amazing. I just love though, at least like in your case and my case as well before we took the next step of education, we like figured it out before we went hundreds of thousands of dollars and possibly student loan debt to possibly get a degree that we weren't actually wanting in the first place. So very grateful for that. Yeah. And there's wonderful. And things that came out of my psychology experience, I can't talk from experience. Um, you know, I had the ability to write a senior thesis and, you know, it helped me evaluate things like, Oh, I do love writing research papers, which is a weird thing to like, but you know, that is something I enjoy.
Speaker 2 00:44:02 And so I probably do want to go the academic route with whatever I want to do, but Oh, I don't love the specific research question I have. So maybe that's what needs to be re-evaluated. Um, so, you know, so even if you are on the wrong track, just like the advice to people listening, you know, there's little things you can get from what you're doing to, um, it's not always a complete wash. It's not like I wasted my senior year of college writing a thesis about depression symptoms. You know, it's, there's little things to get out of it too.
Speaker 4 00:44:34 Yeah. Cause we even talked about, because I think right now, um, you know, me, I'm not working in conservation, I'm working for a real estate startup tech company just because COVID, and there's something similar happened to you. You're working at this super fun little pizza shop right now, like in this managerial role and they love you and you're frigging good to make a pizza is, you know what I mean? Like it's just exactly, it's just got to make the moment now work. Like we're making our bills work, we're paying everything. And with, but knowing in our mind that this is what we want to pursue is like, this is what we want to study, um, and everything and how we want to go down. So take me back to Rwanda. Um, so I'm a lot of people listening may not even know where this is, so where exactly is Rwanda. And then I would love for you to tell me more about your experience there and what it was like traveling there and just, just yeah. What, what your day-to-day was like and really paint a picture of what Wanda is for someone who might not even know that that was a country.
Speaker 2 00:45:41 Absolutely. So it is a very, very small country. And when I say small, it is frequently, um, the state they use to compare it to is Maryland. Um, so the surface area or square footage of Maryland, but you put what is called the land of 10,000 Hills. And I think what they described as a Hill is what I central Ohio consider a small mountain. Um, these are not tiny Hills, but I'm from a very flat place. So, um, yeah, it's a very, very hilly country in East Africa. Um, it is surrounded it's landlocked. Um, so Burundi is right there. Tanzania is right there. Um, it has a Lake that is absolutely beautiful called crime, probably the truth in this names and a lot of names that I'm saying throughout this. So I apologize. Um, but Lake Kivu, um, is right there as well. Um, but yeah, landmark country in East Africa, a lot of Hills, um, you do have a small national rainforest.
Speaker 2 00:46:46 You also have a small Safari area. Um, it's got a little bit of everything that you would normally think of Africa as, um, but you know, my experience there, you have, I've never met a more welcoming group of people than the Rwandans. Um, they're just excited to see you. They really love sharing their country with people internationally. Um, part of that, again, it's my experience. I'm very clearly not from there. We all were very clearly not from there. I think out of the 14 people that we've met with, I think 12 of us were really, really pale. Um, so it's very obvious to them that we're not from there and they get very excited to, you know, feed people and just share their history with you. Um, because we were studying genocide, every single person, um, we interviewed and talked to, um, would tell you their version of the national narrative surrounding it before they went into, like, we might be interviewing somebody about their women's co-op, um, that they were part of for survivors.
Speaker 2 00:48:02 But instead of just going into like the questions like we would in a normal American context, they'll tell you the half-hour long story of the genocide, and then they'll go into, you know, there questions and things like that. So, you know, just incredibly welcoming people. Um, they do have a national narrative surrounding the genocide, and everybody's pretty much on the same page about, um, the timeline and historical events and they'll add their personal story into it. Um, but it's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been from just traveling. And I've been to a lot of national parks, um, and everything, but everywhere you look, there's just beautiful. Green stays. The Hills are incredibly annoying to drive through. Um, not that I was driving, but, um, at least it's a beautiful scenery and the entire time you're driving to get to one side of the country, like I said, it's the size of Maryland, but you'd expect, um, you know, driving straight through Maryland might take like two hours.
Speaker 2 00:49:02 You went from scaly, the Capitol to the rainforest, which was basically directly West and tiny country. I think it took us six hours, one way to drive. Um, so just, you know, it is dirt roads outside of the Capitol and, you know, traditional developing country, I would say. Um, but absolutely gorgeous. Um, from a conservation standpoint, they're one of the only areas you can visit lowland gorillas, um, and a huge part of their GDP as a country is, um, around ecotourism, which I find fascinating. That's not what I want to study, but it's absolutely fascinating. Um, because they are receiving, it has, since the genocide received a lot of international aid, pretty much across the board. It's not very, um, I don't want to say partisan, but like there'll be USAID and like get aid from China, they get aid from Russia. You know, it's pretty international that they're getting assistance, but a large portion of their GDP third is ecotourism based.
Speaker 2 00:50:08 So yeah, that's really exciting from a conservation standpoint, absolutely made it so that instead of poaching, um, they can instead turn poachers and two tour guides and that supplies, you know, local restaurants with business, it supplies, hotels with business. Their airport is pretty well developed. Um, so, you know, they can staff people there, um, taxis, any transportation services, all get business from this. Um, and it's not cheap to do. I will say I did not do it while I was there. Um, a couple thousand dollars I think for a day trip or something like that, but absolutely very great for their economy. And it's exciting to see because you have, um, the Congo also borders it, um, and you can't go see girls in the co-op or the Congo because they are very worn torn at the moment. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:51:03 Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up because that's one of the reasons why I love Rwanda so much is, you know, when they came out of all of this, because from a wildlife standpoint, when it comes to genocide and, and just mass conflict in general, it's always the wildlife and nature of that hurts significantly. I don't want to say the most because that's, that's really demeaned, you know, just doesn't the atrocity that is genocide and what happens to other lives is just heartbreaking. But when that happens, then everything suffers all of the wildlife because when that happens, there's no stability. So there's no way to get your basic needs of life. You know, just how you had the example of somebody stealing, you know, tiles from another house because they have flooded the country. Well, maybe that might've been their only way to get the tiles because everything was just completely non-existing.
Speaker 1 00:51:57 You know, when a country's war torn like that, then to get basic needs and supplies can be very, very hard. And then when that happens, well, you still need to feed your family. So there is a forest right there, and this is when you know, the bushmeat trade gets way higher because if you still need money, I still need to find a way to pay for things, to support my family. So, you know, the black market increases, uh, bushmeat, poaching, all of these really bad things for wildlife happen during times of peak human violence. And then on top of that, then when the more contact you have with wildlife and these animals that should just be left alone, then you have higher cases of zoonotic diseases. And then there could be a plague of some zoonotic disease that goes through a human population because they are closer to this wildlife.
Speaker 1 00:52:48 So it's this vicious cycle of, of just pure death and always shape or form like wildlife dies, human dies, culture dies. I mean, I've so many bad things can happen when these conflicts arise. And that's why it's so incredible for countries like Rwanda. When they came back that they had this very strong conservation mindset and they have these plans in place for one of the most endangered and most important animals that we have to save right now. And I mean, it's expensive. Like you said, it is so expensive to go and go on a gorilla Trek in Rwanda, because that is how much value they place on their gorillas, which is super, super, super exciting. And I talked about it quite a lot. Um, me and Arthur did in my episode six, where we talked about like human habituation versus food conditioning. This is the exact example of correct human habituation.
Speaker 1 00:53:53 Like these, there's only certain groups that you can go see, um, certain gorilla families that you can go see. Um, do you can't have like any food with you? It's just simply, you are just a long in the forest with them and they do not care that you're there and they're very highly protected because they bring in a lot of money. I mean, if it's cost you us dollars, it costs, I don't know what the current per rice like prices right now, since I no longer worked for my last company, but it was like 1200, $1,500 or something like that per gorilla Trek to do. I mean, that's just one. And then you could spend an hour with them, which from everything I've seen, it's like one of the most amazing wildlife encounters. And I've heard people that are like in the field and they tell me that to this day, like the gorilla Trek was the most amazing wildlife encounter they've ever had in their life. So it's worth the money if you have it. Oh yeah. But, um, yeah, so beautiful. What Rwanda has done in so many different ways, you know, like how they've come back from this, how they didn't just come back and kill everybody else and then how they made conservation such a part of their economy moving forward, because without it, who knows if the gorillas would even still be here.
Speaker 2 00:55:10 Absolutely. Honestly, it's very, very true. Um, and it's, yeah, it is expensive. It was something that they were like, well, are we gonna go see gorillas will marijuana, like on our study abroad? And they're like, well, the price of your study abroad would double, um, literally literally, cause it's actually a very affordable study abroad. If anyone, the actual flight to Rwanda is probably about as much as the grill and track, um, in all honesty. So if you're interested in visiting your Honda, um, the sites are not that expensive in my personal opinion for expensive flights internationally, especially Africa, Africa can get really expensive. Um, your site will always be a connection to Uganda, um, pretty much always. Um, but yeah, no, it's not cheap at all, but it is absolutely worth it. And they do a fantastic job, um, from everything I've heard and seen, um, those being there and then, you know, talking to you, the zoo always praised it, um, when they had people do it, um, that I know who worked there.
Speaker 2 00:56:08 Um, and they're not just focused on the gorillas. Um, they have a notorious plastic bag ban, um, that is usually, you know, the Achilles heel of all tourists that go there. Um, no, they had a ban on plastic bags for a long time because they realized how strong or how bad of a pollutant it was. Um, they were finding them in their forests and they just completely said no more. Um, so don't bring your plastic bags to Rwanda. It's really not that hard for a personal experience to get a cloth tote, but yeah, they are really very conservation focused as a nation. And, you know, they are actually the force of women in political seats and power. They're actually the fourth largest, um, ratio of men to women. They made a big initiative after the genocide as well. Actually I probably should've mentioned this earlier, um, where a big push was, okay.
Speaker 2 00:57:09 We think this is actually a false claim, but it had good outcomes as weird as that sounds, um, the thought process and the aftermath of the genocide was women are less violent than men. So we can prevent this from happening if we put more women in power. So they made a quota system where I think, and I'm not a hundred percent sure on this. I can send you for your show notes as well. I think it's a fourth of all of their congressional seats and it's not Congress, it's a little different than our political system, but a fourth of their, um, political representation has to be women. And they've actually exceeded that quota, um, pretty heavily. So I think the only countries that are ahead of them and the ratio of men to women, um, are Scandinavian countries. And then it's Rwanda randomly on that list.
Speaker 2 00:57:56 And I should say, um, it is a false hood. Um, we know from my sociological perspective that women are not less inclined to commit violent acts. It's just the type of violent acts they commit are different than that have been. So women might be less inclined to, you know, directly kill somebody, but they are more likely to poison someone or do things that are more indirect, um, causes of death for other individuals. Um, and we saw women commit a lot more, um, property crime, like I mentioned with the roofing. So no, they weren't actively going and killing their neighbors, but they were stealing all of their neighbor's property that has its consequences as well. Um, but yes, in Vermont does case less women committed genocide directly, um, than men. And so that was their thought process kind of boiled down. It was a little bit more nuanced than what I just said, but in short, they were like, Oh, women are less violent. Let's, let's put them in power. So it's ad interests are really good consequences. Um, they're much more female friendly than a lot of other nations in their region. So yeah.
Speaker 4 00:59:05 So I think that's a perfect segue to this nonprofit. Um, that's like fricking perfect. You couldn't have set that up better. So tell me all the things, tell me how you got involved. Cause I know that in itself is a, is a story and then the mission and I mean, yeah, let's just, let's just go into it.
Speaker 2 00:59:28 Absolutely. So, um, the nonprofit we're talking about is called miss able Humira. Um, it is a Rwandan based non-profit that focuses on drop training and reproductive health education primarily. Um, we are branching out and it's in the works currently to expand our programs to a couple more things like community outreach and partnering with local schools. Um, it is a Rwandan non-profit that educates women who are disabled, all of the topics I just mentioned. It's an incredibly important task. Um, the founder same is got to leave. Um, and I'm going to mispronounce her last name, ACA gummy. I believe that's probably incorrect and she is one of the best people I have ever spoken to. Um, she's absolutely wonderful. And such a speaker or something she married. Um, I think back in 2018, her current husband, um, who is a double amputee as a result of, um, violence in the 1994 genocide and he's a painter.
Speaker 2 01:00:32 So he paints using his feet and his mouth, um, increase beautiful watercolors if you want to look them up online. But she married him back in 2018 and she received a lot of stigma and, um, the stigma from her friends and family, and it was kind of ostracized overall from a lot of people. She considered like close personal friends, um, because he was disabled and in Rwanda, there is as in a lot of other countries, um, and a little bit, even in the U S I would say, um, a stigma against people who are disabled as subhuman for lack of a better phrase. And so, you know, they were like, you're a beautiful woman. Like you're fertile, you should go marry somebody who is able-bodied and can provide for you. And, you know, a lot of more patriarchal thought process kind of. So you heard experience of being ostracized.
Speaker 2 01:01:26 She obviously went through with the marriage. They have two beautiful children, um, currently, but she realized, um, or her eyes were opened to a form of discrimination that she currently, or had you previously experienced in Rwanda. And she realized that not only the disabled community was highly ostracized, but specifically women within the disabled community or incredibly ostracized. Um, and they were frequently having listened to things like sex work in order to provide for themselves. And then, because they hadn't received any formal education because the school system had, you know, ostracized them and failed to educate them, or they hadn't even gone to school. They hadn't learned about reproductive health education. So they didn't know how condoms work and they were working in sex work, or they actually had, um, in one scenario she's told me about a woman thought that she couldn't get pregnant when she wasn't bleeding.
Speaker 2 01:02:21 Um, which is obviously the opposite. So she had a woman, a lot of women are having unwanted pregnancies, um, who are disabled and exacerbating the situation they're already in, of not being able to provide for themselves is now they have two miles to feet or three miles to be. And, you know, it's a very vicious cycle of poverty basically. Um, so she realized this was occurring and her first step was to start educating disabled women about reproductive health. So her and a couple of volunteers that she found in her community just started going around and they made some pamphlets and they started, you know, just educating these women about their bodies, um, which is something, you know, everyone has the right to have knowledge about in my opinion. Um, and she's educated. I think it was 16 women thus far on it. And she has a growing team and COVID has very much put a wrench in this,
Speaker 6 01:03:19 In everything.
Speaker 2 01:03:21 Currently, last time we spoke, um, she had said that hopefully this week, their Providences would no longer be under lockdown because right now they basically can't enter extra exit any Providence in Rwanda. Um, so they're hoping this week that that will open back up, but, you know, COVID is very much thought or mentioned things because they are a very communal nation. And, um, they haven't been able to meet with anybody and, you know, their internet connection. Isn't like in the U S or you can just have on a zoom meeting. Um, it's questionable when people are living in poverty there, if they have internet access. So that's kind of holding everything, but she basically was amping up, um, before COVID to really stand up that reproductive health education program. And, um, she's been doing things like we're trying to write grants right now. We're starting a jobs training program, um, which she's got, I think, four or five different disabled individuals, um, learning how to crochet and so, and use tailor, tailor things, um, so that she can have them make traditional African handcrafts, um, that we can then sell at their local markets and online on our website.
Speaker 2 01:04:33 Um, and then I'm working on getting connections in the U S that will sell them in physical retail locations as well. And the idea of the jobs program is that, okay, now they've been educated on reproductive health. So they understand, you know, how not to exacerbate their issue of having multiple amounts to feed and they can have safe sex. Um, and you know, we're also educating them on things like what consent is and what their legal rights surrounding it are because you have a lot of incidences of sexual assault and these scenarios just in general, globally, um, specifically if people don't even understand that concept or that boundary. Um, but now that we've educated them on this, let's work on the next step, which is getting them out of poverty and, you know, teaching them how to do, you know, traditional African crafts. Our next stage of the program has a recycling program built into it.
Speaker 2 01:05:24 So they're helping that we can train people to pick up recycling or like plastic products that are wasted and recycle them and turn them into, you know, home items like columns and outlet covers and things like that, that we can sell as well for a profit. And then it becomes a self sustaining program, hopefully in which, um, you know, some of the proceeds go to buying more cloth and upkeep of the sewing machines and new training costs. And the other portion of the proceeds go directly to the people who are creating the products. Um, so right now we've raised $1,140, um, which have already been sent over to her. And she's in the process of actively, um, researching what products to make and training individuals, um, in renting. So I machines and all of that. So that's wonderful. Um, so that's in short where they're at, and we're also, um, partnering with the university of Dayton at the moment, um, which is a new development since I last spoke,
Speaker 1 01:06:31 Um,
Speaker 2 01:06:33 The university of Dayton it's in its very early stages. Um, but a student group there for their human rights major is working with us to start community school programs, basically, basically an American comics as an afterschool program where kids can learn things like ASL or braille, so that, um, basically their future leaders have some understanding of, um, you know, what the disabled community goes through, removing the stigma at an early age. So hopefully legislation future down the road in 10, 15 years will be more positive towards the disabled community. Cause they're really gradients and it's very early stages currently. Um, but we're working with them and, you know, they're also helping us boost our social media presence and with grant writing, because right now that's just me. I don't know what I'm doing fully. Um, but yeah, so it's a wonderful organization. It may take a little while and I'll get into how I,
Speaker 1 01:07:33 You take all the sips of wine, you know, that's what we're about.
Speaker 2 01:07:40 Yeah, absolutely. So I own involved, um, kind of back to the zoo, a family friend who also worked there knew that I did the study abroad in Rwanda and she is also a friend of the founder got leave. Um, God leaves, husband, whose name is Frederick is a speaker frequently at a fundraiser annual fundraiser for the route one gorillas at the Columbus student aquarium, um, called the Rwandan FET. So, you know, in non COVID years, he frequently flies in and gives a keynote speech, um, about, you know, his community and the Columbus SU has helped him personally in, um, starting a community center that he runs that helps get kids off the street, um, and, you know, provide them with a safe place after school, something very traditional in our head. Um, but that was really important for them as a community, through Rwandan set at the Columbus Sue's main focus is kind of similar to what we were talking about earlier with conservation of you have to help the people so that they help the wildlife.
Speaker 2 01:08:46 You can't just directly go in and help wildlife. Um, because you do still, if you don't provide the local community with a job or train them how and how to do a job, you can go in and dump thousands of dollars into gorilla conservation. But the moment you leave, they go back to poaching because that's the most equitable thing for them to do. But if you go in and you spend even a smaller amount of money, just training them and showing them how to make money off of ecotourism, they will turn around when you leave and they'll execute that. And it becomes a holistically profitable. You serious Andrew saving wildlife simultaneously. So it's, you know, saving wildlife by helping people. So he was highly involved in that organization and a family, friends knew him and his wife got to leave, um, from working on that event, got to leave, had reached out to the family friend and asked, you know, Hey, I need basically, uh, not a co-founder, but someone, a us connection or just someone to help me with the stuff I don't understand from a more human rights perspective and less of like a nonprofit running perspective, um, and kind of out of left field.
Speaker 2 01:10:05 Um, the family friend was like, Oh, like I know somebody who studied abroad in Rwanda who wants to do research there, who might be a good fit. I don't know. And so she reached out to me and I connected with God leave. And it's been, I think almost four months now, um, that I've been working voluntarily, um, for, um, disabled Humira. So, you know, she and I connected, she's absolutely, like I said, wonderful. I've already mentioned her story. Um, but she's one of the most caring people I've ever spoken to and just really wants to help others, um, as much as possible. She really, really feels, um, enveloped by these women's stories. And it's not just women, I should say. Um, it is called Ms. Abel, but you know, they don't exclude anyone, um, from the disabled community. So there are men that are working on our jobs training program and it is a wide variety of disability or disabilities.
Speaker 2 01:11:01 Um, yes, my research in the future is probably more interested in people who became disabled due to, um, events like mass violence and genocide, but the organization as a whole does focus on individuals with down syndrome and cerebral palsy and who are blind and deaf and, you know, and then also amputees, but it's a very all encompassing, um, organization and they have so many wonderful ideas. It's just, they're at the point where they're like, okay, we do have financial boundaries as to what we were able to execute at the moment. Um, but yeah, absolutely wonderful organization. So
Speaker 1 01:11:39 That's great. And, um, for those handicrafts, so are those, is that something that is being worked upon now or is there anywhere that anyone could go online and buy those already? Or is that in the works?
Speaker 2 01:11:51 It's currently in the works. So we are hoping sometime this year, um, it's really kind of up in the air because we are still waiting on, like I said, we've raised $1,100, um, or so that have been sent to her and that's enough to get, you know, I think their goal is 200 handbags, um, is the main craft they're working on in the next couple months, but we do have to, you know, continue to get funds to purchase the cloth, to purchase the sewing machines, that kind of stuff. So we're, I think our goal was 11,000 and some, some change 11,000 doesn't change if I'm not wrong. Um, so we're a 10th of our, or a little under a 10th of our goal. So,
Speaker 1 01:12:34 And if, and if so, if anybody listening, like they just, they have some, I mean, it's tax season right now. So people probably get some refunds, they might have like some extra money to help throw out in the world. So help reaches $11,000 goal. Where can anybody go? It's just to help get there.
Speaker 2 01:12:51 Yeah. Um, so it's on our website. Um, there's a donation stat. It's a go fund me page. Um, but it's just miss Abel, M I S S a B L E, and then Humira, no dash or anything. H U M U R a.com. And like one of the first things that you'll see when you log onto the page is a donate button. So yeah. Um, yeah, anything is appreciated, um, any small amount. Um, we've had a couple of very large donations, which is mostly how we've gotten to the 1,100. Um, but any dollar amount is very welcomed. So yeah,
Speaker 1 01:13:26 Nope. Yeah. Those are when, I mean, collectively, if we all could just give a little bit like, well, that can be reached pretty quickly, hopefully fingers crossed. Yeah. Now I'll make sure that that's blasted everywhere. So if you have $5 or $500 that is just laying around, this would be a really good place to put a awesome, no, that's great. And I'm, and this is her story is just so inspiring and to see a need, I mean, something that she was personally dealing with and to turn it into something that beautiful, she would have every right to feel the exact opposite, you know, and, and to be like, okay, this is a need, I love my husband tremendously. Um, obviously there's more people that are experiencing what he's experiencing.
Speaker 4 01:14:13 So, and the fact that you're on it too, it's like super cool. Like this was such a cool life experience. Um, that's awesome. Yeah. Cause he's just like recently started the Instagram itself. Right. And you're right.
Speaker 2 01:14:25 12 posts. It's ridiculous. I am not, I'm a very weird 23 year old. Um, I did not have Facebook and I did not have Instagram prior to January of this year. I'm pretty sure it was like the date or the timeline for that. Um, yeah. Cause I just, I don't know. I, you, you major in psychology and you learn how horrible social media is for you. And I grew up, it was a very strict Catholic household, so like my parents were very against it and then I just went into college and then my major basically told me that it's horrible for your mental health. And I was like, okay, we'll stay off of social media. Um, and then I started a nonprofit and she's like, can you get her and our social media up and running? And I was like, I can try. I honestly, I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 01:15:14 I know, looking at me and be like, yeah, she knows exactly how Facebook works or how Instagram works. And I'm like, I, I'm not entirely sure. Um, we're trying our best to get a social media presence. It's not the strongest at the moment. Um, but we're getting there, we've got some followers getting there or chugging along. Um, but yeah, it's really just a, it's a wonderful learning experience. Um, and it's another weird connection cause I worked in high school. Um, again, I went to, I was in Catholic school from kindred or I think it was pre-K even like preschool through my senior year of high school. Um, and so part of the high school graduation requirement was I think like some small number of volunteer hours, like 24 or something like that. And so we had to do like a C or a sophomore service project and I worked with, um, the special Olympics locally and I actually ended up staying on there for three years, except like, I think it was only required to do like one season of student coaching.
Speaker 2 01:16:23 And I think I did like five or something like that for different sports. Um, so it's another weird thing where I'm like, I'd love to work with, you know, disabled individuals or help the disabled community in some way. And I could never find a connection point and then just realized, yeah, exactly similar to how I was like, I don't know what I want to study or do for career. Um, and then everything just kind of combined. So it's another weird little coincidence in that regard and you know, I'm learning things that I would never learn otherwise that are wonderful to know in academia, like how to write a grant. Um, and I'm getting practiced at it before I go into grad school and need money for it personally.
Speaker 4 01:17:05 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:17:07 So wonderful experience.
Speaker 4 01:17:10 That's great. So I there's, there's something that I love to ask and just, um, because it's just very interesting to hear everybody's life stories. What do you think in your story so far has been one of your biggest struggles that you've had to overcome?
Speaker 2 01:17:32 I would say overall, personally, I know I have struggled with mental health for a long time. Um, it's one of those things where I had a lot of personal stuff come up, um, like my junior and senior year of high school and they really it's why I got into psychology actually. Um, a lot of it is, um, not just wanting to be a lawyer, but um, personal journeys through depression, not understanding what it was or why I was feeling that way. And then anxiety is usually coupled with depression and in my case was no different and learning how to kind of work through it. And a lot of that came from studying it in college. In all honesty, I did, you know, I recommend therapy. If you're feeling down, it never hurts to talk to somebody. There was nothing wrong with admitting that, you know, you're not feeling a hundred percent mentally.
Speaker 2 01:18:28 Um, so if anyone out there is struggling, you know, there's hundreds of counselors available. There's also wonderful online, um, zoom available, um, therapists and things like that, um, with everything that's going on. But, um, definitely my mental health has been probably the biggest thing. Um, I've worked through over the last like six or seven years probably. And you know, it's, there's silver linings to everything. Yeah. I had really a bad time with it for two or three years. Um, like senior year through like maybe my sophomore year of college. But, um, now when I'm faced with something that's, um, you know, I study genocide or I want to study genocide. Um, something that, you know, would make people upset or, you know, triggers me for lack of a better choose again. Um, I noticed take a step back and to change my perspective, like cognitive behavioral therapy is something that I studied really heavily when I was going into Vera psychology and it's core tenants of it are that we need to change how we look at events instead of, uh, in our behaviors surrounding those events instead of actually changing the actual event.
Speaker 2 01:19:50 So learning how to look at things in a different light and take for, you know, in one way or another, a positive spin on it has been something that I've learned through this process that I wouldn't take back to the world in all honesty. Um, so, you know, it really helps me on a day-to-day basis even of like, Oh, I'm really angry about X. Well, you know, there's positive way to look at that two of you know, well now you can go do Y and Z or something like that. Like you didn't get into grad school. Well now you have money to go buy a house or something like that. Um, so yeah, definitely. I think that would probably be my biggest struggle personally, at least
Speaker 4 01:20:36 Was there a trigger or anything that at that time
Speaker 2 01:20:43 I was going through a lot of stuff at home, more or less. Um, so I was having, I've always been in conflict with my parents to some extent I'm a very boisterous person. Um, and we've worked through all of it since then, but basically I think a lot of stress of having to figure out what I wanted to do in college, going to college, being excited for that independence, but just all the change combined into one. Um, and yeah, just having just general home conflicts that I don't think are that uncommon and a lot of Steve for most teenagers to have. And I, again, Catholic, like very Roman Catholic conservative household and I am by, um, very liberal. Um, so, you know, politically we didn't always get along. Um, religiously. We did not get along a lot of the time I'm <inaudible> from everything I can say.
Speaker 2 01:21:47 Yeah, I'm atheist sometimes agnostic, but probably the most. Um, so, you know, I think religion and politics and all of that stuff kind of, and then just being an angry teenager, exactly. Um, being a very angry and very independent teenager, it did not help. Um, so yeah, I think just a lot of things people can relate to, of being, you know, 17, 18 angry. Um, and you know, I we've worked through, like I said, and I came out better. I have a much healthier relationship with both my parents because of it. So again, there is a silver lining and you know, now there's boundaries and it's healthy. So
Speaker 4 01:22:31 Boundaries are good boundaries. Again, no boundaries are always safe, even in relationships, parents. Yeah. Everything. But no, thanks for sharing that sharing that is, I just, I just really love to ask this question because I don't think it's talked about enough and what I'm starting to find. The more of these interviews I have of how many times mental health is brought up and it just goes to show and just that, how many of us experienced these types of things and how we always feel so alone as we're going through it. And it's just not talked
Speaker 1 01:23:06 About enough. I mean, I know in my field, it's not talked about, you know, like our conservation field. Well, I mean, you're a sociology psychology, I'm sure it's talking about frigging shit ton, but
Speaker 2 01:23:14 Yeah, well a decent amount. Um, you'd be surprised.
Speaker 1 01:23:18 Oh really? Yeah. Huh. So more like a study sense. Not necessarily like a personal sense.
Speaker 2 01:23:23 Yeah. Everyone's educated about it and there's definitely a movement within the field within social science specifically, I would say there's definitely a field and I'm personally not in the academic portion of it right now. And there was definitely a push a year or two ago when I was, you know, in classes and things like that to be like, Hey, like your mental health matters. But I've seen that. I think socially in general, in the last couple years, just be a big push because everybody does feel that way. Like it's a very isolating feeling and it's incredibly important to know like, no like 30% of the population experiences, depression at any given point in their life. Um, often once. Yeah. But it's, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to go into it. I'm like, there's a lot of people that need counseling who can't achieve it because we don't have enough counselors.
Speaker 2 01:24:11 So, you know, it's a big need socially and societaly so, you know, people do need to know like they're not alone and yes, every person's experience with it is going to be a little different, but you know, there's a very good chance that the person across from you in a room also is going through depression or anxiety, or even if there's lots of other mental health issues. But those are tend to be some of the big ones that a lot of people experienced on a pretty regular basis. So yeah. I appreciate you asking, like I try to be really open about it. I almost feeling like, yeah, no, I have depression. Like it's something that I struggle with on a fairly regular basis, but you know, it gets easier and there's some days that are worse than others. Um, but yeah, no, it's definitely something you can work through. And I think that's important to understand. It might feel like you can't work through it, but take it a day at a time and we'll get there.
Speaker 1 01:25:12 Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thanks so much for sharing that. No idea what you're going to say. So, no, that was good. That was good. Like I said, it's been it's it's to the point where it's becoming a trend, like, what's that question completely unprompted, you know, like what has been your biggest struggle? And like I said, on more than one occasion, the answer hasn't been mental health in some point in the life or currently battling, um, like Haley, she was on my show and she, you know, was very open about talking about this. She even has like medication that she's taking, uh, currently for it. And she has this very vibrant and bubbly personality and it just, it just proves that it's just, you can't judge people because you don't know what they're going through inside. Like, you don't know what we all have our own personal struggles in some way, shape or form. And what someone is presenting on the outside might not necessarily be what's going on in the inside. So just love everybody have empathy for everybody because you just never know what they're currently experiencing at that time and how well they're hiding it or how well they're not hiding it. Um, yeah, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 01:26:28 That's very true. Um, yeah. And it's funny cause like you think the girl that studies genocide is really probably struggles with some depression or something, but it's not related to that even remotely, weirdly enough too. So like you never know what is going on with someone in their personal life. Um, it can be a professional issue too. Like there's plenty of people who go into this and they're like, no, it is, you know, like I think that's probably what one of my mentors gets asked most often is like, how do you deal with, you know, talking about genocide on a regular basis? She's like, well, I exercise on a regular basis. I eat healthy. And some days there's bad days, like, you know, there is like sometimes it's really hard. Um, but yeah, it, one day at a time, this is all I can reiterate.
Speaker 1 01:27:17 And I'm sure a lot of people listening to this that are in the conservation field feel the same way. It's like if it feels like an uphill battle every single day, all day long. Cause I mean the topic itself is depressing. You're like, okay, so this wildlife that I've dedicated my entire life to, um, the most recent headline came out that their numbers are dwindling. Um, they're poaching has increased. It's always negative. It's always something really bad. Um, and unfortunately I happen to love big cats as my thing. And talk about one heck of a bird to love because everywhere they're in trouble pretty much, um, for in general, big cats are in trouble everywhere. So yeah, just, just like that personal struggle of everything is always negative. Everything is always bad. And then just finding a way to cope with it and persevering every single day.
Speaker 1 01:28:09 And um, being the scientist side, like even though the topic of genocide is quite horrific, like I can see how it'd be super fascinating from like a human psychology standpoint. I mean, I love history like hardcore history. The podcast is like one of my favorite of all fricking times Dan Carlin and like the details that he goes into of what has the insane things that have happened in the past are, I mean, we are a tame species and compare it to our ancestors. So even though yes, genocide nowadays is bad, listen to Dan Carlin and some of the shit that we've done to each other in the past, it is freaking insane. Um, but very interesting. Yeah. Super interesting. And I don't know why it's entertaining. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2 01:29:05 No, that's great. That's great.
Speaker 1 01:29:07 So, so I guess I was a high point. So what would you say has been like in all of your studies or your journey or the, or the nonprofit, or what do you think has been like some of your highest points or what you're most proud of?
Speaker 2 01:29:21 Yeah, so actually it kind of ties into my last answer a little bit. So what we were just talking about, um, you know, for every sad number you hear or, you know, depressing that you read, there's a person who survived, who has a story that they want to tell and they'll tell you, and there's a personal connection to be made. So, you know, I would've never thought that so you genocide, um, then connected with God leave and knowing that, you know, she was doing these wonderful things in Rwanda to help the disabled community. I, you know, when I was in Rwanda, big part of our study abroad was interviewing one or two people at a time as a big group and asking them questions. And it was everything from people who were genocide perpetrators. So they committed genocide and they had gotten out of jail and women's groups for survivors and individuals who saved people during genocide because you know, it wasn't everyone killing.
Speaker 2 01:30:22 A lot of people killed and not everyone, there were people who, you know, were going in and hiding people in their fields and, you know, under banana leaves and things like that, or in the case of the Holocaust, you hear about people who were hiding individuals in their attic and an East floorboards and things like that. So for every horrible thing you breed, it's nice to know that humanity does go both ways, you know? Yes. Some people might choose to convention aside, but yes, other people also choose to save and to help and to prevent it. And along those lines, a big reason, I was drawn to criminology. And like when I did want to be a lawyer, um, I was drawn to how people can change. And it's another reason why I love psychology. I think the human mind is so malleable and you know, you see it with people being able to do horrible things, but you also see it with, you know, I don't think because you commit a crime that you are this irredeemable person and that you should have a life sentence in prison or anything like that. You are able to change just because you did one bad action doesn't mean that you were a bad person. I don't honestly believe in the concept of good versus evil or good and bad, which is another reason I don't fit into
Speaker 1 01:31:53 <inaudible>.
Speaker 2 01:31:56 But, um, I was really drawn to just how people can change and the streams that you can see in one life. Um, so that is what kind of, I absolutely love about what I want to study later on in life or when I hopefully get into grad school, um, is just, you know, meaning people who realize they messed up and they want to change because honestly, as nice as it was, and as weird as this sounds, as I said, it was to talk to people who saved individuals during genocide. It was more inspiring to talk to people who committed genocide and went to prison and serve their sentence. And we're now actively trying to better their communities that they were living in and who had gained forgiveness from the families whose brother, sister, mother, they had killed and seeing how far they has come is absolutely incredible and really inspiring as weird as that sounds like. Yeah.
Speaker 4 01:33:12 Oh, I can totally see that. I can totally see that. That's I mean, just like you said, not necessarily like the good versus evil thing, um, but to see how somebody can change so dramatically. And also just the fact that someone can forgive someone who did that, because I mean, yeah. Who knows what mental state or, you know, group think that that person was under at the time, it's almost like a magic spell it. I mean, that can, can convince people to do such atrocious acts, which they would never do otherwise, but just how heavily they're influenced. And, Oh man. I mean, I never been put in this situation and hope and pray to God. I don't, but like if someone killed one of my family members, like, would I, would I be noble enough to forgive? You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's a deep question. And so to hear that, and I'm sure that those people were insanely grateful to be welcomed back into their community because they, I mean, their community would have every reason not to, but just welcome the back in is so inspiring. Like, I mean, us humans might be fricking crazy, but there's some good parts.
Speaker 2 01:34:32 Yeah, yeah. To answer your question in short, they see all aspects of humanity is why I love what I do. Um, cause it is incredible. And it's the same thing with the Misael. Humira is, um, you know, she was ostracized and I'm sure she's reconnected with people who have ostracized her. Um, and she's also made new with people she wouldn't have otherwise. And you know, she, she's seen both sides of people, you know, the good and the bad. Um, and you know, you just do what you can to stay on the good side. Great. This has been awesome.
Speaker 1 01:35:13 Um, is there any last minute, like last parting thoughts that you would like to throw out there or anything?
Speaker 2 01:35:20 I don't think so. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful to chat with you as always.
Speaker 1 01:35:27 Yeah. And if anybody wants to, uh, follow, uh, miss Abel Humira, what are the best ways to, um, I know you mentioned the website, but just like one more time, just a quick rundown
Speaker 2 01:35:36 Of what all you're on. Yeah. We're on Instagram and Facebook that maybe expanding with our partnership with university of Dayton. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but we might have a Twitter soon. We'll see. But, um, yeah, it's just miss anal dot Humira, um, on Instagram and then, uh, on Facebook is Ms. Abel Humira dot nonprofit. Um, cause somehow there was already a mislabel Humira on Facebook. Um, yes. Um, yeah, those are our handles and you can also find links on the website for both of those. Um, and if we expand to other platforms, those will also be on the website. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 01:36:15 Perfect. And if anybody reaches out and wants to connect, I'll, I'll make sure they get to you and where they need.
Speaker 2 01:36:21 Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
