[00:00:00] Speaker A: Conservation is a calling that requires passion, perseverance, and an understanding of the human psyche. And when you join two disciplines in the field, say, conservation psychology and wildlife photography, magical things can happen.
Welcome to rewildology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brian Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
In this episode, I'm sitting down with conservation psychologist Stephanie Klarman, PhD, and Carabo Magakani, student pilot and wildlife photographer.
Steph is a pioneer in the emerging field of conservation psychology, having recently completed her doctoral degree in South Africa.
Her work explores the human dimensions of environmental issues and how to foster lasting behavior change. During her research, Stephanie studied the impact of wild shots outreach, an organization using photography to reconnect south african people with nature.
Steph met so many inspirational people through the program, including today's second guest, Carrabo.
Carrabo is a previous wild shots outreach student and now is a workshop leader who has helped countless community members reconnect.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: With their natural heritage.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Carrabo is also studying to become a commercial pilot and plans to use her flying skills to contribute to conservation efforts. Ah, just incredible, right?
Stephanie and Carrabo pull back the curtain on the field of conservation in South Africa and address topics rarely discussed openly. So prepare for that. They touch on the dire poaching crisis devastating South Africas wildlife populations and shed light on the complex cultural and socioeconomic dynamics underlying most conservation issues in the country.
They also share inspiring examples of how changing human attitudes and behaviors can create a future where South Africas unparalleled biodiversity can survive and thrive for generations to come.
Don't forget to subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Follow the show on your favorite social media app and support the show however you like, whether it be by leaving a reading, a review, or purchasing a piece of swag to show off your rewild algae. Love each of these actions, help the show tremendously, and keep these important stories on the airwaves.
All right, friends, please enjoy this thought provoking conversation with Steph and Carrabo.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Well, hi Stefan Carrabo. I am so excited to be sitting down with you both for a very special topic and an open discussion that I can't wait to learn more about and hear from you, too. So first, I know who both of you are, but those listening don't. So let's change that. So, steph, if you want to go ahead and start, could you please introduce us and maybe tell a little bit more what you do and also share your story. How did you get to what you're doing today?
[00:03:20] Speaker C: So, essentially what I do is conservation psychology research, but trying to do it with a bit more of a twist. Mostly it's been conceptualized as a very, like, behavioral change and attitude change kind of field in terms of changing people's behavior to be more pro conservation and that type of thing, which is helpful to a certain extent. But when I decided that I wanted to pursue this field, I thought that really wasn't going to work in a more south african or larger african context anyway. So for my PhD, which I recently finished only about a year ago, actually, I decided, thank you, took more of a social justice angle to conservation work, which is especially relevant in South Africa because we have so many environmental injustices which have been committed from the apartheid era but are still perpetuated today. So it's been really exciting to try to take a new angle on that all. But yeah, actually getting here, I studied to be a therapist, so I originally studied my counseling psychology and masters, and I just decided I didn't want to be in individual therapy for very long. I wanted to be doing field work. I wanted to be working in communities.
And obviously, conservation has always been a huge passion of mine. And so it was a lovely way of being able to merge my love for psychology, but also with my love for conservation and wildlife and bring those two things together, which has been super, super exciting.
And that's how I met Carrabo.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Perfect segue.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: So, Carrabo, your turn. Please introduce yourself as well and tell us what you do currently, but also your story. How did you get to what you're doing today?
[00:05:06] Speaker D: Growing up, I've always been interested in aviation. I always wanted to become a pilot, and it is still a career that I'm still pursuing, still studying towards becoming a commercial pilot.
I met Steph, as she said, when she was doing some of her research for a PhD, psychology. So it's conservation. And I met Steph through the organization that I volunteer for, which is wild shots outreach. I became interested in photography and conservation when I did my. My workshop, my wildshots workshop back in 2020. So I did my workshop in 2020, just before COVID just before we had all the lockdowns. So I did my workshop then.
And it was then that an interest was sparked in me about conservation because it was not something that I was previously exposed through in school or in the community that I grew up in.
Conservation and conservation issues was not something that we previously exposed to. So when I attended my wild shots workshop in 2020. That is where the interest began and gaining more and more knowledge about conservation and the issues that are there.
Self study and self taught and other from sort of the other ngo, conservation ngo's that we work with around here in the Lofot area. So, yeah, currently, like I said, studying towards my commercial pilot's license and assisting in wildshots as an assistant, facilitating the workshops. So that's what I'm busy with right now.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: How cool. A commercial pilot's license, like what?
Amazing.
Oh, wow. We were definitely going to get into that in a second. But first, Steph, I would like to lop it back over to you just to set the stage for the rest of our discussion. It has been a little while since conservation psychology has been on the show, so maybe if you could start, what exactly is this discipline? And then also you alluded to that maybe the way it's being put into action might be a little different for the south african context. So, yeah, explain a little bit about that. What is it? When did it come to South Africa? And, yeah, how is it maybe different than other parts of where it's deployed or used?
[00:08:03] Speaker C: Well, in the early two thousands, it was really one of those disciplines that started out in response to this idea that human behavior obviously ultimately affects conservation. I mean, we wouldn't really have conservation work if it weren't for people. Right. Our actions do impact the environment. And so conservation psychology was really about trying to understand how does human behavior impact the environment? How can we change human behavior to be more pro conservation or pro environmental? Because at the end of the day, the health of the environment impacts the health of people, which is still incredibly important and valid. But my concern with having read the literature and the early days of conservation psychology, being very much about behavior towards conservation work or attitudes towards conservation, was that it's not really addressing some really fundamental issues as well. So if we were to take South Africa as an example, we can't necessarily say that we only need to change human behaviour. That would be incredibly unfair. You know, if we look at what happened during apartheid, entire community removals happened in order for what is now the Kruger national Park to be set up.
And that's a very complex history and something that we could probably talk about for days and days on end. So in a very simple way, what. What has happened is that there have been these communities that have always lived on the borders now of what has become a national park and one of the biggest, but those communities are still living in poverty. They don't necessarily have infrastructure like water or service delivery. And so just changing human behavior is a bit more superficial, if I can be honest. And so that's where I thought, you know, when I started my PhD is, how can we make this different? And my supervisor is wonderful, and he's always been involved in public health work. And so he really encouraged me to look at environmental justice issues and how we could tie that together with conservation psychology by really foregrounding this idea that if we're not focused on the well being of people who have been historically marginalized, then conservation is going to be largely ineffective because we're not focusing on what people really need to also be able to thrive, to take care of their needs before also then looking at environmental concerns. And so I find it a bit difficult to say when it came to South Africa because eco psychology has slowly become a thing, but eco psychology has more of a therapeutic basis. It's still very individual, whereas the work I've been doing was really trying to do it on a larger community scale.
And so, to my knowledge, I'm not entirely sure anyone has explicitly done conservation psychology work in South Africa before I started trying to conceptualize my PhD in those types of things, at least not as a formal field.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: So then what was it that you studied then for your PhD? What was the project that you came forward and how did you put conservation psychology into action?
[00:11:20] Speaker C: So essentially what I did for my PhD then is I had actually already met the director of wild Shots outreach, and I was so intrigued by this idea that you could be working on environmental education, capacity building and photography, which is a huge deal for me as a wildlife photographer. I've always loved this idea of making wildlife photography do something and putting it into action. And so I was kind of looking at this from three different perspectives as a photographer, looking at the education elements, but also looking at the capacity building element and really trying to understand what makes an initiative successful or effective, like what are the inner workings of the wild shots outreach that has made it a success, because if you have a look at what the graduates have been achieving, it's been absolutely astounding. I mean, since I started working with them, students have finished their tertiary studies in filmmaking or have gone on to become field guides. In that time, Kurabo has gone on to complete her pilot's licence, and she's now moving on to her commercial license. And so there's just been more and more and more stories of how this organization that had small beginnings really has actually made an enormous difference in the lives of so many individuals. And they're doing things in the environmental field or hospitality or tourism or filmmaking and photography. So it was really about trying to understand how does this work and how do the participants experience this in the long term, and not just as a short term initiative, you know, how many people were reached or how many people attended the workshops. It was trying to understand what are their lives like during and after taking. Taking part in the outreach activities, and how has that influenced and impacted their lives going forward.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: And so then what was so special about this particular program? What were the key factors that you noticed were different? Because, you know, as we say over and over and over in conservation, to the point where, like, we're blue in the face, it's like education, education, education. Well, education can only go so far. As you mentioned earlier, we can know something, but if your basic needs are being met, then who cares? So maybe.
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: What were some of the big takeaways that you were able to pinpoint as, like, why this project was so successful?
[00:13:49] Speaker C: There were a couple, and really, it comes down to a couple of really important factors. So the first one was that there is long term engagement. It's not just that participants attend a series of workshops and then they're finished. There are so many opportunities for participants who are keen to do more things. So, you know, there might be opportunities to go and take part in photographing a rhino dehorning or an elephant coloring. Or if they want to start teaching photography workshops themselves, then they can go on to become leaders of those workshops, too. They can photograph community events that are happening around the bushback, ridge and hood spray and low fault areas. And so there were all these other activities and opportunities to just get more and more involved. And at this point, it's, you know, where maybe just now we could pass over to Caraba, because she's just one of those perfect, perfect examples of a student who's decided to run with it and take on all these opportunities.
And as we'll learn in a little bit, it's definitely kind of shaped the path that she's taken since 2020 when she finished those workshops. But some of the other really important things that I saw in wild shots, outreach was not just that it was long term engagement, but there was also a focus on what we call second order capacity building, which is essentially that we build capacity of individuals. Right? They learn photography skills, they learn all sorts of things during the workshops, but then it's also about kind of teaching people to become teachers. So instead of just ending the workshop, these students or participants have the ability to become teachers. Themselves or leaders of the workshops. And so they become trained to train more people. And again, Karaba is a wonderful example of this, and so are several other graduates who now lead these workshops themselves, and they're reaching more young people. And, you know, as we speak right now, there are actually workshops going on in both Botswana and Namibia. So it's just that the reach kind of keeps exponentially increasing through the second order capacity building. And then the other part of it that was really special about this outreach was a very genuine focus on empowering students, making sure that there's diversity and representation. It was still in the early days of sort of the 2020 lockdown, where we started talking a lot about, you know, where are the black african photographers? And so the workshops and the outreach explicitly makes it its goal to make sure that it is increasing the representation of african photographers, african conservationists, making sure that these conservation spaces are becoming more accessible and becoming just.
How can I word it? It's really just about ensuring that there's more diversity in these fields so that it's not just a, dare I say, primarily white and male dominated industry.
So those were some of the really key factors that made this outreach stand out and made it really special and effective.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. And you're exactly right. I would love to hear, Carrabba, from your perspective, could you maybe take us through the journey of when you were a student, why did you feel the desire to become a part of this project? And then also, could you then tell us maybe more about the outreach that you do? Like, you're leading these now? So take us through that journey. What was it like as a student? How did you get, like, what. What about it rang to you, rang true to you, that you fell in love with it. And then I would love to hear more about how you're leading these workshops. What does your outreach involve? Like, what can we take away from this? So please tell us how all of that, like, from the beginning to now.
[00:18:05] Speaker D: Well, when I first attended the workshop, I fell in love with the camera first because it was a new skill to me, and it was like, okay, so let me break down the workshop first. So it's a five day workshop, and on the first four days, we get taught the basics of a digital camera. So on the first five days, it was me being able to capture, really this beautiful images of the person I was paired with in the workshop. And it was really interesting that I could be able to get such images with a little bit of knowledge about the camera. So that is what intrigued me. And I remember Mike emphasized the importance of storytelling in photography. So it just, that thing that stuck with me, that if with five days of training, I can be able to take images like this of my partner or of the person that I was paired with, what more, if I have more and more training on a camera? And the conservation part of things really, really sparked an interest when we went on a game drive. So I think in 2020, I was 21, if not 22. And besides living just adjacent to some of this protected areas or the Kruger National park, it was my first time ever on a game drive in a game reserve. And we had such a lovely, lovely field guide. And more than showing us the beautiful natural environment that we have in the low field area, the Kruger park, and the greater Kruger protected areas, she was explaining to us the injustices that exist in the conservation world and in conservation.
And it sort of intrigued in me, or sort of sparked in me an interest for knowing more about conservation and how could so little be known about what is going on in these protected areas, whereas it is our communities that actually live adjacent, or some of it even bothering the protected areas. So it was just something that really sparked an interest in me to know more about it. I'm a very inquisitive and very curious person by, and naturally so. So it just raised a lot of questions in me and just an interest wanting to know more about conservation. And how could communities where I am from get involved in solving the conservation battles that exist? And I remember after my workshop, I kept in contact with Mike, just seeing if there's anything that I could do to help with the wild shots outreach, if there's anything I could volunteer to do. And just how could I lived just adjacent to those protected areas and never knew that there were issues that exist, such as rhino poaching. Rhino poaching is a big one. But then I didn't know it was to this extent. I didn't know that lion poaching was to this extent. I didn't know that elephant poaching was to this extent. It was just something that was like, it exists, and, okay, but then how it affected me, I didn't know how it affected me, I didn't know how it affected my community, didn't know how it affected South Africa as a whole, the whole world, to be, to be quite frank. So it was something that I always was always on Mike's case, can I assist? Can I come do something to assist? And finally, he had my consistent nagging and I started volunteering.
I started volunteering with wild shots. And the other thing that kept me wanting to keep contact with Mike. So if is there anything that I could help?
It's the feeling that I got. 22 year old, first time ever on a game drive. The feeling that I got when I first I saw my first wild elephant.
I remember this so perfectly for like, we had a huge head of elephants just the beginning of our game drive. Had a huge head of elephant.
1st 30 seconds to admitted, I'm not gonna lie, I was scared. I wanted to jump off the game view and run. But then as I calmed down, but then as I calmed down, it was this, they are gentle giants. And it was the feeling of just being there. I was there and for like two minutes I wasn't taking pictures because we were on the game drive. But then we also had, we also had cameras, so we had to take pictures. I wasn't taking pictures, I was just taking all of it in. And it was a thing that I wanted more people in my community to have the same feeling, to experience what I had experienced.
So it's one of the other things that kept me being on Mike's case. If I could assist and if the workshop could come back to my community so that more people in my community could go through it, one, get a skill, a photography skill, and secondly, get the feeling that I got. And like that, I started volunteering. And slowly but slow, slowly but surely, my Mike and Rufumo started giving more responsibility to me, started giving more responsibility until to a point where they could trust me to lead a whole workshop. So, yeah, now I lead these workshops. And it is when you, when we go on the, on the, on the game drives with the students from the workshops, you can see the joy in the faces and you can see like, I lived just on the border, just across the road from this protected area, and I've never experienced this. And experiencing it from, for the first time, you can see it in the joy and the connection that they have with animals is really just an amazing thing to witness.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: That's beautiful. Yeah, it sounds like it's been incredibly rewarding for you. I completely agree with you. First time I went on a safari, I just, I was in love. I was completely blown away. And my camera was more of a way to just share that love with other people. And it sounds like you two completely understand that feeling. Like, yes, I wanted to share this moment. Like, how privileged am I to be seeing this and have this experience? And other people need to experience this too. Then let's do it even better. Get here and experience it as well. So, yeah, maybe, Carrabo, could you explain then just a little bit about these outreach projects themselves? And also from what I remember from our last conversation, you also do a lot of work spreading awareness about elephants. So maybe could you talk a little bit more about that? How are you getting people more involved in conservation? And, yeah, what is their reaction? And maybe what do they do after you meet them? So, yeah, just take us through. Take us through that.
[00:26:23] Speaker D: Elephants. So the work that I do with elephants is with another conservation NGO called elephants alive wildshots focus is on high school students and young unemployed youth. So their focus is on grandmas and sort of elderly, elderly, elderly women in the communities.
So what they do is take grandmas from our communities because they are organization that works a lot with elephants. They have colored a lot of elephants and done a lot of research on elephants. So they take the grandmas from our communities into the reserves to teach them more about elephants. And what has been discovered is that there's a lot of similarities between elephant matriarchs and most african family settings, because you have the grandmother being the one who's taking care of the children and the grandchildren, because maybe the male have gone out to work or seek greener pastures. So it is a setting where grandmothers are essentially leading and raising the children and leading the household, and it is how elephant matriarchs are. So they take the matrix from the community to scatter the meat matrix, the elephant matriarchs. And it's an amazing organization to work with. And they invite us from time to time when they have elephant colorings, when they have these game drives that they do with the grandma. So for kind of wild shots to come and photograph or document the whole experience for most of the grandmas, even, it's at 60, 70, 80, it's the first time ever on a game drive. So the thrill, the excitement there is also just amazing.
So, yeah, just really amazing to be able to work with them as well.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds like you are doing some insanely impactful work between helping the youth and it sounds like the unemployed just like, have inspiration and just, just seeing their first wildlife, even though they live beside this world famous national park. Like, God, I'm so glad that there's organizations like this and that you're helping lead the charge on this. And then also elephants alive to engage the matriarchs of these communities. Just absolutely phenomenal work. And my next question, I want to turn this into an open discussion now, now that we have a lot of background from both of you. Like, what is conservation psychology with this almost case study of how wild shots works? But could you maybe teach us a higher level, both of you, if you wouldn't mind, what are the top conservation and social issues that are in South Africa today? We're recording in March 2024. So I know so much has changed. I've sat down with quite a few people in South Africa, but things just change so quickly. And you two are also very involved on the social side, so I'm very excited to learn from both of you. But, yeah, could you just teach us what are the top conservation and social issues in your country as it relates to? Well, yeah, wildlife and nature. Just like, please tell us.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: Well, I guess from my perspective, I would say that, you know, there's so many. It's such a complex and multifaceted thing. Right. You know, conservation is. Is complex, and it's also going to come down to, you know, which region of South Africa are you speaking about? So if we were to just stick to the low felt or the greater Kruger region, naturally we're seeing high levels of poaching. And that was something that certainly spiked during COVID because there was no income for so, so many people. Game reserves, lodges, those types of things were no longer able to accommodate guests. And so there was just this enormous drain on income coming through to so many people working in conservation and tourism and hospitality. And poaching, of course, just skyrocketed. And that's still a problem that we are experiencing, whether it's a poaching for ivory, for horse, or in some other cases, it might even be subsistence poaching, which is, of course, a very different matter as well. Poaching is certainly an issue, and that does go hand in hand, of course, with poverty. Right. So that's one of the big things in the greater Kruger region, is that you are still dealing with enormously high levels of poverty and unemployment. And that was one of the reasons why capacity building, I feel, is such an important topic, because I don't necessarily believe that education on its own is really going to be that impactful if we're not empowering young people and we're not giving them genuine representation, voice and all of these things in these spaces. And part of what came up in the research so much that, you know, it shouldn't be an issue, but it is still an issue, is this idea of inclusion and representation in conservation spaces. And, you know, despite the fact, of course, that apartheid is long over, we're still dealing with its legacy. And so one of the things that so many of the participants from the research raised as a really prominent issue was, where's the inclusion? Right. We can't afford fees to enter game reserves or national parks or, you know, see anything beyond a fence. Or, for example, students saying things like. Or a participant saying things like they felt unwelcomed. You know, I remember seeing a quote from my research in which someone said that just stepping across a fence or a boundary was essentially criminal, right? So there's this constant idea that there's just this sense of being unwelcomed and excluded from these spaces, and it's not something we should still be seeing in this day and age, and yet we are, even if it is taking place sometimes a more subtle level. So there's this kind of web of difficulties where you've got immense poverty, you've got immense unemployment, and we're still experiencing exclusion and a lack of representation in these conservation spaces. And so from my side, I would say those are some of the major concerns we're experiencing. Of course, amongst others, you know, infrastructure, schools, and these types of things, it's all interlinked in the more rural regions. I'm not sure if, Karabo, you feel like you'd like to add anything on. Maybe I'm missing something that you feel is also important there.
[00:33:46] Speaker D: Yeah, but like you say. Well, I don't know if you remember a quote by Vusi on his feedback form when he first attended the workshop. He said, how can I love something that I've never seen?
Messaging of Oz was important, is really important there that we, in this conservation battles, if we do not include our communities, looking at the low field area, if we do not include our communities, like you say, inclusivity is an important thing. And even myself growing up, I always felt and thought that wildlife photography, wildlife conservation is a white people's thing and is a white man's thing. And that was that. And it wasn't until I was introduced to conservation by wheelchairs that there now we felt, okay, it's something that I also can contribute to, but it was only when I had the evidence, or rather, I had the. The knowledge of what's going on. So, yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Carabao. And I think, you know, there's an extension to that as well. That's really important to note. And I hope I'm not being too bold in saying this, but we often assume that there's, like a deficit in knowledge, right? That there are certain people, whether it be by region or, you know, it's just we sometimes get into this habit of assuming that there are other people who are deficient in knowledge about conservation, and if they were simply taught differently, they would be or behave differently. But I think something that karabo kind of mentions throughout what she said so far is just how special it is to be connected to nature. If we look at the program with the Gogos or the grandmas going and. And being able to witness elephants and being able to see them similarly as matriarchs or, you know, your elephant sighting of the herd and being able to connect with them, like, how special is the connection?
As opposed to assuming that there's a. Yeah, you know, there's this deficient knowledge. I would rather say that unfortunately, one of the most enduring parts of apartheid and the way in which communities were removed from that land is that it severed connections. And it's not so much being deficient in knowledge as it is a legacy of connections being severed. And that's the thing that I feel like we need to really focus on when we're doing community work is really, really, actually listening to people.
Something that came up so often, actually, in the interviews, was this idea that many participants grandmothers were themselves traditional health practitioners or traditional healers in South Africa. And so they have this very special way of being able to gather resources from the natural environment around them. And so it's not about not understanding. It's rather just that removals have caused these connections to be broken. And what a wonderful thing to be able to take young people back out into these game reserves and national parks, which are so important for biodiversity, but being able to reestablish connections and being able to say, this is actually for all South Africans, and we can't, you know, continue this idea of exclusivity.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: Very well said. There's no such thing as being too bold on this show. You can say whatever you want. That's the beautiful thing about this platform.
So I.
[00:37:24] Speaker D: Let's.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: I want to flip this on the other side of the coin. Now, we focused a lot on some of the issues and a case study of something that is working to change these problems, but let's take it up a little higher notch here. What are some solutions that both of you are seeing that's actually working? What is turning the tide or moving the needle on wildlife conservation in South Africa?
Yeah, let's start there. What are you seeing on the ground?
[00:38:00] Speaker C: Karabo? I want to hand this one over to you first because you are literally on the ground in the greater Kruger. So you kick off, right, like Steph.
[00:38:11] Speaker D: Put emphasis on as basically when people feel connected to something, they're more likely to care about it. And when, obviously when you care for something, you're most likely to look after that thing. So initializing or starting or bringing that connection to be it young people to be old people to be people of all ages, just bringing that connection and then being able to resonate with nature and that sort of starts the change. And I believe this is conservation or caring for wild spaces. There's a chain, and that the connection starts the chain or sparks the buy. So, yeah, and with what I've noticed working with worldwide outreach and other conservation NGO's, is being. How do I put this? Like I said when I was opening, is conservation is something that was never previously exposed to or something that I knew about besides some of my cousins, some of my aunts working in the reserves as game rangers, as whatever, it's something that they never spoke about because I believe that it's something that they themselves were not aware of. So just being able to be exposed to it in the form of education or in the form of. With wild shots, game drives, and actually getting somebody who's in the field a field guide to actually explain to them what's going on and what needs to happen.
For us to still have rhinos or elephants or lions or some indigenous plants or indigenous trees 30 years down the line, what needs to happen. So that just that exposure and that information, getting that information is crucial. I believe. Steph, you have a different take on it.
[00:40:20] Speaker C: No, no, I don't have a different take. I do think it's important to couple that with. With empowerment and capacity building, though, because, you know, if you were to consider that we have to take care of basic needs as well. And so if we're looking at communities that haven't had basic needs cared for, aren't being addressed, then it's also really important to remember that just by empowering people, whether that's through employment opportunities, bursaries, studying opportunities, self employment, or entrepreneurship, which is another big thing we're seeing with the wildshots graduates, is that people are able to start taking care of basic needs as well, which is so, so important.
So I think when you couple all of these things together and you realize that this is so multifaceted and so complex, but you, you start to piece it together, then you start to see conservation actions being more effective. And I would really like to stress that something I would like to see more, which I believe will really help, is also trying to mainstream and bring in a lot more local and indigenous knowledge systems, because there is so much valuable knowledge out there that needs to be represented both in the public and the scientific spaces. And I think when you start to couple all those things together and you start to realize that there are other ways of knowing nature and other ways of being in nature, that in itself also becomes really, really powerful. And I think we're starting to see this happening in, like, the academic and the scientific circles where there's this call to bring in more of these indigenous and local knowledge systems. And that's also going to be immensely helpful. I mean, it's been seen, I think it was an namibian example where people were trying to understand, like, how do you control fires and how do you deal with fires? Right? But if you had a look at the way in which the local communities were conducting fires during the right seasons and at the right times, that was working really well. And it was almost a bit of an injustice not to recognize that the local knowledge systems were working and we didn't need to necessarily introduce new western ways of doing these things. And it's such maybe a simple example, but if we start to incorporate different ways of knowing and understanding conservation, I really think that will also be immensely effective.
[00:42:50] Speaker B: Yes, that was fantastic, both of you. And I think as an extension of this, what is the state of wildlife conservation? As me living across the world, I mostly just hear about the war on wildlife. And you brought up poaching.
So me, I've been to South Africa. It is like a top safari destination, but also being in the conservation world, you know, all of it is so doom and gloom. But what is actually the truth? Has poaching got worse in South Africa? How has it gotten better? Are you two starting to see a difference for the better or worse? Yeah. If you could just give us outsiders more of an accurate portrayal of conservation in South Africa, I think that would be immensely helpful for all of us.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: It's a difficult one to answer, I must be honest. It's, again, quite complicated because we are.
We're one of the few countries that also has a very different model of doing conservation. So we have our national parks, but we also have many private game reserves. And those private game reserves can focus on different things. Some of them might engage in hunting and trophy hunting, others might just engage in photographic tourism. So we've got very different models kind of happening in one country. The unfortunate news, and I hate to be doom and gloom, is that, for example, the rhino poaching situation is dire.
We know this, and it's not just in the low fault or in the greater Kruger region, but we're also seeing it in another province called KwaZulu Natal, where unfortunately, the rhino poaching is on the increase and it is really, really dire.
And in response, of course, the big thing is that people start, or private security organizations and national parks, of course, militarize their conservation work and they're kind of up the ante, right, because they're facing so many threats on the ground. So, you know, when you couple the increase of poaching with poverty and unemployment, it isn't a pretty picture, which is really, really sad. But there are also other cases, if you were maybe to look at other species where, you know, higher levels of protection and these types of things do help them. You know, we are, for example, seeing that, for example, wild dogs. Wild dogs are doing relatively well. I'm not a species specific researcher, so I can't necessarily speak to like, the nitty gritty, but there are so many projects going on that helped different species. And so when you look at metapopulation and you look at the national parks and those types of things, there are species that are doing quite well. And then, of course, you have others like the rhino that are not, you know, one of the things that we don't necessarily deal with as heavily in South Africa as other african countries do is human wildlife conflict. It does occur, for sure, but because we do have lots of fenced reserved, the wildlife conflict with people is somewhat minimized, I guess, to a certain extent, at least. So, you know, it's kind of a bit of both is that there are situations which are really, really dire and there are other situations or other species that are doing fairly well in South Africa's parks and game reserves.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: Are there any, like, government level programs or anything to help local communities that are struggling and just turning to poaching as a way to just make a living? Like, I don't blame anybody for this, which I hate that sometimes local communities are villainized for this type of stuff or don't understand that there's like, there's no other hope for a lot of people that are doing the actual poaching and there's usually some crime boss that are the actual movers of all of this. And I think that that, that gets lost in the whole poaching conversation. But is there anything like that happening to help with the poaching situation? And again, if you don't know, that's okay. I just feel like if I have an opportunity to ask, I'm going to. Yeah. Is there anything on a government level happening, or is it still more like NGo's that are tackling this problem?
[00:47:17] Speaker C: Very much sitting, I think, in the NGO and private space for the most part. You know, Kruger National park is run by sand parks, which is a national organization, and there are certainly projects on the go with regards to education, community engagement, employment, and those types of things. So they're definitely, you know, from a sand parks perspective, those things are happening. But it is largely NGO based. So, yeah, it's, again, very, very complicated and comes down to different regions. In South Africa, there are certainly hotspots where we're seeing more problems, like in Limpopo and Pumalanga and in KwaZulu Natal, where poaching is a lot more rife.
So, yes, I would say, to answer your question, primarily NGO and private space.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: I would say, yeah, that's definitely helpful.
I know that some people are against government or big government, but sometimes it does take government level regulations in order for things to change. So I was just curious if there's so much happening in the United States where I am that it's impossible for me to keep up with around the world when I'm just like, oh, my gosh, I have a roller coaster to deal with. So I was like, I'm going to ask the people, people that are actually there. You tell me about your government, because I don't want to assume. I think that's also another big issue across the world is our perception of conservation in another country is how it is, like, written about or perceived by somebody else or like a journalist or some sort of outlet. So go to the source. I want to learn from the source, which is why I'm sitting down with you two amazing ladies.
And speaking of being. Oh, go ahead.
[00:49:06] Speaker C: Oh, sorry, sorry. I thought I would continue with the idea that you had mentioned previously about villainizing the poachers and local communities, because that's so important. And it kind of links up as well with the idea of government stepping in and trying to do these large scale things, which really ought to be done to uplift the communities that are living in poverty. But I think it's really important for an international audience to understand that there's a lot of complexity behind this idea of villainizing poachers. You know, it's quite a sad thing, but we went through a phase in South Africa where everybody put red rhino horns on the front of their cars in an effort to, you know, say that we should stop poaching, or they would put bumper stickers on about how bad poachers are, you know, you can save a rhino by shooting a poacher type of thing, which is actually really quite hideous. You know, but this is, this is fairly mainstream. And if you look at social media and when we speak about catching poachers or, you know, charging them or sentencing them, it's a, it becomes a very, very ugly conversation. And I would love for an international audience to critically examine that kind of narrative behind blaming people who are living in poverty for poaching when, you know, you really consider what it takes to put food on the table. And I'm not excusing it. I'm not saying that poaching isn't dangerous. I'm not saying that it isn't having an impact on biodiversity. I'm not saying any of those things. But it does require critical reflection that we don't villainize these people to just assume that they're all bad and they deserve the worst outcome possible. And I think if we address more fundamental issues like safety and poverty and food production and these types of things, what a difference that would make that we wouldn't have to necessarily see people resorting to this. Again, maybe a bit bold to say, but there is a bit of resentment on the ground as well in terms of allowing very wealthy hunters to in, but not at the same time allowing subsistence hunting. You know, there's a contradiction there that needs to certainly be addressed. And I don't want to get hugely controversial, but kind of needs to be put out there.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. Corral, did you have anything that you wanted to add to that?
[00:51:35] Speaker D: No, just really on the last part that Steph mentioned, just something that really, really is interesting thing. But then trophy hunting is a big thing and. But then if somebody who's poaching inverted commas to put in a pot, then they deserve to be put in jail. And like saying, and like Steph is saying, deserve all the bad things that they could possibly receive is just. Just another thing on its own.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a bigger topic to be discussed. It's.
Man, I don't.
Yeah, it's amazing how money rules the world and how so much of this just boils down to money and resources at the end of the day and who has it and who doesn't and what that means you're allowed to do and what you're not.
It's pretty incredible if you just think about it from that boilerplate level. But that's what it is you're talking about trophy hunting. Somebody can kill the exact same animal, but depending on the amount of money they used or didn't have to kill said animal will depict if that person is a criminal or if that person is just on a holiday and South Africa, it's wild. It is a wild concept to think about. Like, it's. Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah. But that's a whole other conversation that we could get very deep into.
But I would love to turn the conversation to you two, maybe more, on a personal note. So all three of us are women in conservation, and we've all had our own journeys in this field, and I would love to talk about that a little more.
And maybe you have had experiences that are positive or negative or neutral, but could you maybe tell me and tell us, and we could have just an open discussion about it?
Have you had to overcome any hurdles or gain acceptance or is the landscape starting to change? But, yeah, as women in conservation and maybe specifically in South Africa, like, what has it been like for you to be in this field? And I'll let either one of you go that would like to start to talk about it. If you have strong feelings about it.
[00:54:09] Speaker C: Give it a bash.
[00:54:13] Speaker D: Well, like I mentioned in a previous interview that I believe I've been fortunate or just have been in. In the right rooms where I haven't necessarily have had to push or rather fight to be in the room or to actually have my voice heard solely based on my. On my gender. So it is something that I. Quite fortunate that I haven't had experience that discrimination just based solely on my gender. And it's something that if it's. I know, I know. On a. On a more wider perspective, it's something that is happening and women are having to fight to be in those rooms, are having to fight to have their voices heard.
But then with what I've witnessed, it is slowly going in the. In the right direction. And most men in the conservation that I've worked with, that I've met, are actually starting to come around at listening to women, having women in those rooms and bringing the change.
[00:55:32] Speaker C: So, yeah, yeah, I have to agree with Karabo here. I mean, we come from slightly different backgrounds in terms of, you know, Karabel has been working primarily with the NGO, whereas I've come from an academic space and it exists, I am sure. But I think having come from psychology and the social sciences, which in South Africa at least, is primarily female dominated, I think I entered the space with a different frame of mind and a different perspective, which has been fun. So, you know, I believe things are changing. I know through friends and I know, through others experiences that there are certainly still challenges and things get said or there's skepticism around, you know, how much contribution a woman can make in the field of conservation, whether it's based on expertise or their strength to handle wild animals and those types of things. But I do believe it's changing, and it's becoming such a hot topic of conversation, which is great. You know, this is what we want. We want to create topics of conversation to put these things out there. And that's what I think is happening. And I do believe that there is positive change going on, which is really lovely to see. And we can have these conversations very openly. And in cases where we can't have them openly or safely, I think it's. It's easier to know that we also have a strong network of women in conservation that we can rely on and work through these issues together. So I just like the fact that it's becoming such a hot topic that we can't talk about it.
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I've definitely noticed the difference in my career, which is incredible.
There's still few women's voices and media, especially in the podcasting world. So as that grows and as the conservation just voice grows, I'm excited to see what the future holds. Like, I've sat down with just as many, if not more women in this field and then men. And I also don't want to downplay men in this field, either.
I want as many people to care in this field as possible. Like, the more of us that are in, that are dedicated, that know and collaborate, the better. So. But that's great to hear because a lot of when I ask that question, it is usually the response is not good. Well, you know, and that's. That's fantastic to hear from, like, a. Having a platform where people can openly discuss that and, you know, what we've all gone through. So to hear relatively positive things from both of you is exciting and might, like, be showing the sign of the times. You know, like, Karabo sounded like in 2020, you started this conservation journey. So maybe, like, you know, planning our flag, like, things are different now. Like, this field is different. And that is wildly exciting to me. I love that. I love change. I love progress. And, like, let's keep that going.
Yeah. So speaking of keeping things going, our work is never done.
Our work in this field is never, ever done done. So what is next for maybe both of you? And as you are looking at your career in this field, like, what are you working towards? Is there something new on the horizon that you can tell us. Yeah, I would like again, either of you can start. What is next for you as a dedicated conservationist?
[00:59:12] Speaker C: Well, so many carava, I want to hear from you because, well, I'm biased. I know kind of what's happening there, but I'm just super keen for you to share it with everyone.
[00:59:26] Speaker D: But like I mentioned before at the beginning of the interview is that I am working towards obtaining my commercial pilot's license and hopefully people able to use that in conservation spaces and be it in conservation or in tourism, because the more I've been involved in conservation, the more I've also gotten to know about tourism. So tourism in the sense of being able to free clients to remote destinations across Africa, to be able to witness Africa and how beautiful Africa is, and being able to use my pilot skills for that. And conservation in the sense where a lot of reserves are now opting to use aviation and protecting the wildlife for head counting or with other NGO's, when there's dehornings going on, when there's elephant colorings going on, when there's trackers that are being placed on certain wildlife animals, there's a need for pilots to be able to spot all of this.
So just being able to use my aviation skills or my pilot skills and the protecting of wildlife and conservation and also being able to put preventative measures in place and yeah, that is what is I'm hoping to achieve. That is what I'm hoping to achieve. And also continue facilitating the participants that come through wild charts. Just being able to share my knowledge, share my goals and yeah, all of it.
[01:01:27] Speaker C: I am always so inspired by Kurrabo. I must say. I just, since the day I meet you at that interview, I've just been massively inspired by your energy and just the things that you've achieved. I just think you must be one of the bravest, strongest women I know. And I just love, love it. I can't wait for you to one day update us on your current pilot's license and maybe even take a flight with you one day?
[01:01:52] Speaker B: Yes, please.
[01:01:53] Speaker C: Yeah, that would be really cool.
[01:01:55] Speaker D: That would be great.
[01:01:59] Speaker C: I'm so looking forward to being on a flight one day. And they say carrabo is going to be your pilot. Shivers very, very.
I suppose from my side, what's up next would just be, I don't know, there's so many things that are, that are going on, but I think one of the big things I would like to pursue in my research is just a lot more storytelling. I feel like there are just so many stories that need a platform and that I'm so keen to hear. I think I just. I love hearing people tell stories. And that was one of the best parts about doing this research with the wild shots outreach graduates is just hearing stories and being opened up to entirely new worlds that, you know, I hadn't given consideration to or I didn't know about. And I felt so naive and I felt so ignorant throughout these interviews, and I learned so much from the participants.
So that's something that's really big for me, is I want to continue to explore storytelling in the conservation space. And I definitely also want to explore more ideas around coexistence with wildlife and what that looks like in different settings, be it urban rural settings, or even if it's in more biodiverse settings as well, near national parks and game reserves and those types of things. I'm just very, very keen to take the storytelling and coexistence angle going forward as well. But lots and different things on the go, so I could be here all night, but those are my two big, big priorities at the moment.
[01:03:43] Speaker B: Oh, you two are just amazing. So if anybody wants to follow you, keep up with your work, you know, maybe reach out, get in contact, any of those things. But, steph, if you want to go first, what is the best way for somebody listening to get a hold of you and keep up with everything you're up to?
[01:04:02] Speaker C: Well, anyone who wants to follow my work, whether it's photography, research, writing, anything like that, you're more than welcome to go take a look at my website, which is under Stephanie Emmy Klarman.
It's an Adobe portfolio website, so you'll be able to spot it there. I'm happy to drop any links that can be added afterwards. That's probably the best way to contact me to see what I'm up to and what the latest events are in terms of photography and writing for conservation.
So, yeah, I would say my website is probably the best one. And then I can easily drop you those links to put into the description afterwards.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. I will definitely have all of those in the show notes, as
[email protected]. And then grab you if somebody wants to follow you and your work and maybe keep up to date as you get your pilot's license. I'm in tourism, so if I could come fly with you, I would just be out of my mind excited. So how can we follow you and keep up with your work?
[01:05:06] Speaker D: A lot of things update has been posted on wild shots, Facebook, and Instagram, but also on Facebook and on Instagram. And I'll just share, share with you and then you post it on the page for the listeners. Yeah.
But then just on Facebook and on Instagram.
[01:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect.
[01:05:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:05:34] Speaker B: I'll make sure that all links are in the show notes to get in contact with two wonderful women. Yeah. And thank you both for spending your evening with me all the way around the world to have a fantastic open discussion about conservation and conservation psychology in South Africa. So again, thank you both.
[01:05:53] Speaker D: Thank you so much.
[01:05:54] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you for having us. This has been so exciting. It's been lovely.
[01:05:59] Speaker D: Yeah. Thank you so much for having us, Brooke. This has been, it's been a really amazing conversation that I've had head with you two amazing ladies. So thank you so much.
[01:06:14] Speaker E: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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[01:06:47] Speaker B: Mean the world to me.
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