[00:00:00] Speaker A: Deep in the heart of Botswana's vast wilderness, a pack of painted wolves emerges from the bush. In the distance, the roar of a lion signals he's out patrolling his territory.
These incredible hunters, the african wild dog and the lion, are among the most revered yet endangered species on the continent. But they're not alone in their fight for survival.
Welcome to Rewildology, the nature podcast that explores the human side of conservation, travel and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
Today, we're going on a wild adventure into the heart of Botswana's stunning wilderness with Glen Maud, PhD, a passionate wildlife researcher and conservationist who has dedicated his life to protecting some of Africa's most iconic species.
Born in Zambia and raised in Zimbabwe, glenns love for the great outdoors began at a young age. After studying zoology in the UK, he made his way to Botswana in 1997 to work as a guide at Jacks camp in the Makarikari pans.
Following, he decided to pursue his PhD and conducted groundbreaking research on brown hyenas.
Now, Glenn is the director of Kalahari Research and Conservation, a nonprofit organization that plays a crucial role in safeguarding Botswana's wildlife and ecosystems. Through their tireless efforts, KRC works hand in hand with local communities, government agencies, and other stakeholders to ensure a sustainable future for some of the country's most vulnerable species.
In this episode, Glen and I chat about the fascinating worlds of wild dog and lion conservation and explore the challenges and triumphs of protecting these magnificent predators. Glen also shares his insights on predator prey dynamics, the importance of community engagement for coexistence, and the incredible discoveries his team has made through their extensive research efforts.
Before I turn you loose, please remember to support the show however you would like, whether it be by subscribing where you're currently listening, leaving a rating and review to help others find the show, or following rewindology on your favorite social media app. All right, everyone, please enjoy this conversation with Glynn.
Well, hi, Glenn. Thank you so much for sitting down with me, calling in from the total opposite side of the world in one of my favorite countries that I have visited so far. And I have so many questions to just understand conservation in this beautiful country that you happen to live and work in. But first I have to know, and I'm sure everybody would love to know, what is your story? Why and how did you become a biologist?
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Biologist? Gosh, it's an interesting term. Biologists, conservationist, zoologist, ecologists. It's hard to say. Look, I've always loved the bush since I was a child. I've always loved animals, domestic or wilds.
I always knew I wanted to do something with wildlife. So I did study zoology at university when I got the chance. And then I was fortunate enough to go start a career, initially as a guide in Botswana Way back in 97 in the Makarikari salt pans.
And that really was my first time ever to Botswana and I basically stayed. So some 25 years later, I'm still here.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: So then where are you from originally?
[00:03:38] Speaker B: One of these complicated southern african cross english people. I was born in Zambia, raised in Zambia and Zimbabwe, but of british parents, and then went to university in the UK, Newcastle University. So quite a cross section of places, really.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Oh, awesome. So it's just southern Africa in general, like southern Africa as well?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. So then why did you decide to become a guide? What gravitated you to that?
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Well, it wasn't more of a decision than I saw an advert.
I was looking, you know, what to do in my life. I think whoever goes to university, for those of you that go, there's always a step. What do you do when you're finished? I was fortunate enough to see an advert where Jack's camp in the Macari academy wanted guides with degrees, so they were looking for sort of zoology stroke guides.
It was a two year contract and just decided to go for it, really. So I'm delighted I did. I must say it was a great entry point into Botswana.
I'm sure for any of you out there who've guided or been on surprise with guides, I mean, you really have to put the hours in. You learn the bush, you work incredibly hard, but you live in a magnificent landscape. So for me it was just a wonderful two years learning the Makari caddy. The Makari caddy is where I went on to do my a master's and PhD. So it was a very important step into Botswana for me.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Oh, nice. Yeah, I've been to Jack's camp. I've been like, to all of those camps out there and stayed at sand camp and Jack's camp and all of those in that region. I love the Macutty Cuddy. And so that's why I'm so excited to talk about this. So then what did you go study? Did you, like feel super inspired or like, I need to get further degrees in this or. Cause you could have stayed a guide, but you decided to go back to school. Why did you make that decision?
[00:05:28] Speaker B: To be honest, it was not really a decision to do a masters or PhD. I became quite fascinated with brown heiners while I was out in the MAkaddy caddy. I used to see them as a guide, but not often. They're quite a rare species, if you like. I developed an interest in them, and I just wanted to learn more about them. And in order to do that, a masters and PhD was almost a platform. It was, almost, for me, incidental. My first motivation was to learn about animals, live in the bush, do something meaningful for those animals, and in this case, browns.
And then, as part of that journey, was getting the masters and then the PhDs afterwards. But I don't think they were ever the goal for me.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: And what did you happen to learn? I love brown hyenas. I saw one when I was in Namibia, and they blew my mind. And then I read that cry of the Kalahari.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Book by the irons is wonderful book.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: It's so good. Yeah. So what did you learn?
[00:06:21] Speaker B: So much. Look, I mean, it was a very ambitious study. I was young. I don't know if I could do it now.
A big part of my work was following them, spending time with them. So literally had to, first of all, find them, which wasn't easy. Second of all, catch them, which wasn't easy, because part of my work was direct observations, who had to collar them, and that literally took years. It wasn't straightforward. They're very shy. They're not easy to get close to. So it's a bit of a journey. And then once you've got the collar on, you had to refine them, because in those days, they weren't satellite collars. You didn't get a location on the Internet. You had to go out there and look for them yourself. And then once you found them, you had to obituate them, so you had to get them used to you following them at night, because they obviously would initially run. So it really was a process and a long journey. And eventually I managed to obituate quite a few brands and followed them, I think, literally for thousands of kilometers and spent probably thousands of hours looking for them. So it was very much a direct observation of what they were doing, where they were going, who they were with, how often they sent marks, where they found their food, what their food was, who they interacted with. A whole host of questions, but mostly focused with being with them.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Wow. Did anything surprise you?
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yes, all the time.
I think I surprised how they accepted me and recognized me, but would still be shy of other vehicles or people. I think the degree of trust that they, you know, they were okay to have you there as a human following them, even though I was using a red spotlight and sometimes not. Yeah, lots of surprises. I mean, interactions with other hyenas, interactions with aardwalk. I remember once you hear stories of aardvarks when they threatened, digging a big hole and disappearing. I saw them do that when aardvarks were a brand. Just this flurry of sanders. The oddwalk disappeared. Yeah. Just interacting. The playful nature of the. Of the brands. I mean, they spend a lot of time alone, but they kind of live as a group, so there's special moments where they interact with each other are not common. And then, obviously, a lot of sad moments when study animals got shot by farmers or died or got injured by lions. So, yeah, I mean, there were many moments through those years.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. I feel like we need to have a whole episode on browns. Oh, my goodness. But we need to get to your work that you're doing now because you're doing so much amazing stuff. So then why did you decide to form Kalahari research and conservation? How did the KRC come about?
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Well, I think for my journey, I always preferred being out in the landscape.
Even today, I think I'm potentially a good field biologist, but I'm not a great academic. You know, for me, the interest was getting out there. I've seen over the years with a lot of wildlife work. A lot of the work's remote. You know, you can do it through all sorts of studies now, through tech and collars and cameras, which I think is important and has benefits because it's less impactful on the animal, less impactful on the environment. But for me, it's always been about being in the field and being with the wildlife and trying to help them. So when I finished the PhD, of course, your next question is, where next? What next? And I really enjoyed an area called the central Calhari in Botswana. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's a massive, massive landscape. Over 50,000 time I'd finished my PhD, there was still quite a big gap there in terms of knowledge, quite a big gap there in terms of even more common species. Wild dogs that were there, but they're not supposed to be there. How many lions are there? You know, there was a lot of questions, so decided, really to focus some time and move from the Makarikari into the CKG landscape for work. And in doing so, also realized that it would be great to give other students the chance to do something in the bush. But hopefully as many local Botswana as possible, because I think if you're trying to do conservation in any country, but certainly in Botswana, if you don't get people from within the country involved in the level of wildlife work, research work, conservation work, then you're really going to struggle to do the conservation. So a big goal for us setting up the group was to pull in locals and to give them the opportunities to spend time in the field, to allow them to do things that I'd done and to also pursue the academic studies. So I think that was a big motivation to set up the group.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Oh, that's such a beautiful motivation. What are the pillars of KRC? What are your big research topics or questions? And have those changed over time, or have they stayed pretty consistent?
[00:10:48] Speaker B: They've definitely changed. And I think if you're trying to do conservation, which is our goal, you really have to adapt to the environment.
So we do change and we feel there's a need for that. Change isn't always easy because you get set up with your structures and then suddenly you're having to change your pillars, if you like. I know in the early years we were probably focused more on research and in terms of capacity development, learning about animals in the CKGR and the wider arid areas. But I think as we've seen the threats coming into the landscapes identified, where animals are really struggling, we've certainly tried to move more into a conservation lake. And if we are doing any research, which we are, it's going to be applied conservation work.
And we've probably, we still have students coming through, we have local students, but we've more focused on trying to develop actions that will help the wildlife because, I mean, research is great, it's an important pillar, but ultimately, you can't keep on doing research until everything's gone and then you say, whoops. So, yeah, we've moved probably a little bit more into the conservation side, but still keeping research as one of our areas.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Okay, that makes total sense. And before we start diving into, like, the meat and the potatoes of your work, the conservation, the research, their understanding of this amazing wildlife. For those of us listening, could you please explain the difference between the different types of land so that we can also understand your relationship on how you work with them and how, how wildlife is protected? So, like, you have national parks, wildlife management areas, game reserves, how does that work in Botswana and then do like your work on the landscape? Does it depend on the type of protection it has or.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, put fairly simply, in Botswana we've got national parks and game reserves which have a similar level of protection. So these are landscapes where tourists and people can only go if they book in advance.
The Department of wildlife has a presence in the landscape. You're not allowed to drive off road, you're not allowed to drive at night.
They're not hugely regulated in Botswana because they're still very big, but they're areas that are considered to be formally protected by the law of Botswana. So, for instance, no hunting allowed in these landscapes and they're regulated. And game reserves and national parks essentially have very similar land uses, if you like. And then also in Botswana, we have wildlife management areas, which are big landscapes that are associated to national parks and game reserves that have wildlife in them but can also have cattle. Wildlife is supposed to be the dominant land use, but you have people living there, you have farmers living there, and then you just have communal lands, essentially, which belong to villages and communities that don't have any protected area status or WMA, which is wildlife management area status. That's put simply how the land works in Bosnia now.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: And what type of land then do you mostly work on? What's the protection level?
[00:13:46] Speaker B: So what we've done is we now work in Akalakadi and we work in wildlife management area.
We work in landscapes adjacent to the Kalahari Transferentia park.
So with our wildlife work, we still work within the Kalahari transfer Antia park, which is a protected area. But you also work with the same wildlife outside of the protected area that moves in wildlife management areas and into communal lands.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Okay, that makes total sense. Cool. And especially since you say you're on, like, the conservation application part, that's exactly where it needs.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I mean, it's, Botswana has done beautifully. I mean, we've got almost 33% of our land, if you like, given over to protected area status or WMA status. But one thing that's happening in Botswana is a lot of the wildlife management areas, in particular in the arid areas, are seeing big influxes of livestock farming, wildlife disappearing, human wildlife conflict increasing. So they're seeing land use change. And one of the reasons we're down in the kalakadi, which is right at the bottom, is there's no real value to those areas for ecotourism. There's no real value for other land uses. There's less value even for hunting. For instance, there's no buffalo there, there's no elephant there. So a lot of northern Botswana has, of course, some wildlife conservation needs and challenges, but at least the wild areas there have photographic people going and high value. And I think when landscape has high value economics always help with conservation. But, Dan, where we work in the land has no value, really, or little value. So it's very hard to do ecotourism. It's very hard to give wildlife economic value. So you've really got to stretch deep to conserve them because you can't just conserve a landscape through tourists coming in and paying a lot of money to photograph wildlife. So certainly the arid areas of Botswana is where we work. There's also more threats to cattle.
Mining certainly is a bigger threat in the arid areas and they're less focused on by people. So they're more likely to have change, if you like, and move from being wild areas into farming areas.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: That makes total sense and why you've shifted to there. And so let's talk a little bit then about the wildlife. So from what I just heard, there's wild dogs there and they weren't supposed to be. Or was that the central Kalahari?
[00:16:03] Speaker B: No, look, it's everywhere. When we started working in the CKG, if you, if you looked at the wild dog range maps that the experts put together, they didn't include the CKGR at all. And the CKGR is obviously in the middle straight northern Botswana, they just included the wet areas where wild dogs are known to be, in theory, with lots of game, lots of water. And over the years, literally, we've mapped them in the CKGR, so they're there. We've given that information to the wild dog experts, if you like, and then moving southwest, we've kind of followed the reins of the wild dogs and the range map. Now it goes all the way down to the southwest, Calacadi, into parts of the KTP. And even today, we're still trying to track the range of the wild dogs to see where resident range is. It's not that simple, because just because you see wild dogs there doesn't mean they're there. Just because you see a pack of wild dogs doesn't mean they're there. It could be an animal or group moving through. They could be there for a short period of not breeding. So if you want to establish proper world of range, you generally need to see them breed successfully over a couple of years, have the pups survive and see that they're a constant presence there. So, so, yeah, it's true that the range maps have increased hugely over the last ten years, and I think people are now aware that there's some big numbers of, well, significant numbers of wild dogs down there, which, which obviously is critical.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Was there a lack of information or have the dogs really moved and if so, what's pushed them? What's going on?
[00:17:26] Speaker B: They've always been there. I think it's just people haven't gone out there to map them, and it's not just of wild dogs. Okay. I mean, we found a python the other day, and if you look at the python range maps, they're not supposed to be there, you know, so I'm sure there's a host of insects and snakes and bird species that are well known and common. But if you look at the range maps, they don't necessarily, they're not accurate, and they don't include these landscapes because, I mean, there's very, very little research has been done in these, in these areas. You know, there's not a lot done. So there's a lot, a lot more to be discovered. And we're keen to do that because, you know, what a shame if you lose landscape and dogs disappear before they're even on the map, sort of thing.
So I think it sounds fairly basic. But even just making people aware of what wildlife is down there, we've got lions, we've got leopards, we've got black footed cats, we've got pangolins, aardvark, brown hyena, spotted hyena. It's not very common for two different species of hyena to live together in that landscape. Other wild dogs in a. I mean, there's incredible wildlife down there and bird life and reptile life, but it's just. I've been overlooked, I think, for a while.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Oh, that's incredible. That's so diverse. How long have you guys been studying the wild dogs and, and how are they faring exactly? Is it, are things getting worse? Are their population numbers increasing? Do you know the population numbers, or. Yeah, I would just like to hear what's the latest status on them?
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Well, wild dogs are still endangered. It's one of the reasons we started working with them. Our journey with wild dogs started when we got a local student, a guy called bertile simulago. He passed his masters on wild dogs probably eight years ago now. And he actually, believe it or not, did his study in the delta. You know, we weren't specifically focused on the Kalahari for capacity development, so he did his masters in the delta and he did a great job. He passed it and actually published. So that was an entry point into the wild dogs. And then we steady kind of moved into the middle of the sea, KGR, and then down to the south. So are they doing well, generally speaking, not because they're still endangered. Having said that though the numbers haven't really decreased in the last decade. If anything, I think even where we are going now, adding wild dogs to the inventory, if you like, has helped. Botswana has the most wild dogs through Africa. In world of grains, I think we've got about 1200, probably. We've also got. One of the problems with wild dogs is they're fragmented. They've got groups here, groups there. In South Africa, for instance, they're really going to move them around to keep the genetic pools working.
But in Botswana, you know, you've got wild populations in the southwest and they connected all the way through, going northeast to the sea, kgo up into the delta, up into chobe, up into Hwangi. So we've really got a very important, massive area for wild dogs to move freely in. So I think they, endangered but stable, I guess, is the best, best term to have. But, you know, you've got to be vigilant because they, if you look at the numbers, they're made up of packs and if one pack gets a disease, the entire pack might die.
So you could lose twelve to 16 wild dogs. Or if a pack gets poisoned, you might lose most of the members in one go. Or if there's human wildlife conflict, you can lose packs, whereas during, with carnivores, lion prides, you tend to lose individuals, not entire groups.
So things change quickly with wild dogs.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: I had my most incredible wild dog experiences of my life in Botswana, hands down. When I was, you know, there as doing a scouting trip for my last company, I was in the delta, so I didn't have the opportunity to see the other populations of dogs. But it's, it's really great to hear, especially to hear an endangered predator like that that is at least there in a stable spot because you guys would know. Didn't you tell me that last year, at the end of last year, you were doing a big census on them? Was that correct? Did I interpret that correct?
[00:21:17] Speaker B: We were. So we've, we were actually doing a massive census, not just on, on wild dogs, but many lions and then also wild dogs in there. So it included driving ridiculous distances, funding lions or wild dog sport and looking for animals and then taking pictures and trying to do a model to get estimates out. And we're busy with the line estimates now. The lines we took, whisker spots left and right. Most of them we found we had to track the spore. But for dogs, to be honest, it didn't work out that well.
The camera traps didn't pick up that many wild dogs and then when you track wild dogs, they move such large distances. They really do. I mean, sometimes 30, 40 km in a night or more, 50.
So we struggle to find them through trek. So we're going to have to have another go.
And we've got good, I mean, we know we've got good numbers of wild dog down there. We've really got quite a few on our id list, if you like. You know, the amazing thing about wild dogs is they're relatively short lived and the turnover in a pack is incredible. You know, young dogs disperse, older dogs die. You know, things just change. They're incredibly dynamic and, you know, we're literally finding that with wild dogs, you have to be on their case all the time and really keep up because they numbers change in a landscape. I mean, Kruger's an amazing example in South Africa, you know, sometimes they've got 400 wild dogs and then three years later they've got 100 wild dogs. You know, they numbers just change dramatically.
But I think, yeah, we have got good numbers in the Kalakadi and I think the next steps are really to spend a lot more time with them like I did with the brands, and get to learn more about how they're surviving in the heat. At the moment, we're going through an incredibly hot, dry period. It's the second year in a row. We know we've got packs of wild dogs that live in areas where there is no surface water at all and there is no water they can access from cattle.
So we're going to come through this trout period and see how they've survived. And certainly for me, wild dogs are amazing. Having spent a lot of time working with brands at night, I got really good at nocturnal work. I was quite relieved to think of working with a species that was supposed to be active early morning and late afternoon. But the wild dogs we work with work at night. A lot of no full moon. Yeah. And we've had dogs that it's been so hot, they go down rock holes, they behave like browns and they go down early morning and they stay there all day in the heat. And then at sunset they come out and then they're active most of the night. So I think a lot of the behavior here is about conserving energy, conserving water, cooling down and adapting to the environment. I mean, the diet's diverse. We've seen them killing capers, spring hares, hunting duiker Steenbach, but at the same time killing Springbuck and Hartebee. So there's a lot to be learned and I think from the research side there, we're super keen to do that. And also in the landscapes outside of the WMAs or within the WMAs where village people live, some of them indigenous sand people. Wild dogs are a big problem animal as well. And you have to have sympathy for the farmers because, you know, when, when wild dogs move into your, into your landscape, into your area, they can create a lot of havoc quickly. So we're really keen to try understand those interactions and develop some sort of early warning system with the wild dogs to help the farmers, or at least to try and give the farmers some economic incentive so they don't have to kill, kill the wild dogs because a lot of the farmers are very poor. So we're working hard on that and we started a scheme where we deploy camera traps in the landscape, and for every pitch of every carnival we get, there's a point value. Point value translates into pula. And then we make sure that pula value goes to the farmers who've had most negative impacts from wild dogs. So it's a new scheme we've started, so we're busy evolving that to help the farmers.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: And just in case people don't know, Pula is the local currency in Botswana.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: Yeah, pullers are over currency. What we've worked out is, I mean, the farmers, you know, they do have some economic challenges and they're poor. And when wild dogs and other predators come in and kill their livestock, it's a problem for them. So we're trying to help give them some economics back, if you like, and at the same time use, use money to help them build bigger kraals or maybe they can start using livestock guarding dogs, maybe herd their, you know, the goats more often. That seems to be the main, the main problem. So we're definitely trying to work with that because obviously landscape changes and farming moves into, into areas where there are wild dogs, then humans are a big threat.
And, you know, there's got to be a way we can somehow have humans. I don't think they'll ever coexist 100% with wild dogs, but at a certain time have some level of coexistence where there's some tolerance both ways from your work so far.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Is there a particular method that seems to help mitigate conflict the most with wild dogs, or is this just still a big experiment that you're trying to figure out with these local communities?
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Look, I think it should be an experiment for us. It depends on, it's where the wild dog kills the animals, for instance. So, for example, are they jumping into a crawl. Okay. If they're jumping into a kraal, can you build a bigger kraal? Are they killing the goats far from the village? And then you need herders, you know, so what's the context of each time that the wild dogs become a problem or they're coming right into the village and killing goats right in the farming area? So I think it's probably going to be a mixture of things, but for me, I think the most promising thing is probably going to be a combination of two. I think livestock guarding dogs, CCB, cheetah conservation, Botswana, use them really well in botswana against cheetah. And I think they'd also work really well with, with wild dogs and then also some sort of early warning system, because, again, wild dogs live in a pack. They're not saturated through the environment. And let's just say there's four packs in an area. It can't be that difficult to keep track of the four packs and have some prior knowledge when they start to move into areas where farmers are and then give, give farmers an early warning. I think that's got great potential for wild dogs simply because they work as a pack. So you might have 30 wild dogs in the area, but just four points that the conflict comes from.
So early warning could work there with lines. It's a bit different. Even a pride will fragment and individuals will move off. Leopards is a bit different. They spread through the entire environment.
So I think an early warning system with wild dogs has great potential to help the wild dogs and also the farmers.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: And would that be like maybe one of the dogs in the pack or like the alpha has a collar, and when it gets close to a certain point, then maybe you're pinged or like the local community's pinged with a warning. Is that the type of system you're thinking, or is there like, something else that I don't even know about?
[00:28:03] Speaker B: No. Look, there's a lot of systems with wild dogs challenges. The collars are quite small, so they can't send a lot of fixes. So you know where your dog is at a to him or at 06:00 p.m. but then they move so fast, and suddenly at midnight, they've made a kill on some sheep or goats. So the principle is the collar providing data. What we're hoping to do in time is to set up a system where there's a better form of connection, a better flow of data, so the collars can take a lot more fixes. And when they move into an area in a farming area, then they deploy them quickly. So you have early notice of the wild dogs coming in and then this. You can go out there and respond to them. You can physically. I mean, wild dogs are easy to chase. Hey, they run. They're afraid of people. If you go out there on horseback or even walk, they'll run away. And they'd also. I don't think they're a species. From my time with wild dogs, and I spent a lot of time following wild dogs, they just seem to move through the environment and kill what they see.
So if they see kudu, they kill kudu. If they see steam buck, they kill steam buck. If they see a sheep, they kill a sheep. So I don't personally think they move into those village areas, specifically hunting livestock. I think they just happen to be there. They see the livestock, so that's what they kill. So I think if you shift them out of the area, then they'll hopefully see something else and then kill that. Whereas a lot of carnivores, I think, you know, you get specific groups of lions or individuals that are moving in, specifically, I think, to hunt a cow, for instance. So if you chase them away, they'll just come back. So we'll see. Look, it cost a lot of resources, a lot of time. We live in a very remote landscape.
Technology can also be a huge help. I know in parts of Africa, the conservation of people using drones to chase away carnivores, you know, not the drone itself, but if you have a drone with flashing lights or a drone that makes a banging noise, I think there's been some studies there showing that the drones may be able to be useful, you know, so I guess if you're in a situation where you literally, you know, the wild dogs are coming in, they're in this area here. You send out the drone and you visually see them as you're moving through the environment and chase them, I think that would be a very effective way of doing things.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Hmm. Yeah, I've had some pretty incredible, like, drone technology guests on, and so I was wondering about that, too, especially in that area. Is there is a way less treed? Is it? You know, like. Because I'm thinking of, like, the lagnianti and, like, the dogs, like, going through all the treed areas. But would you have that issue with, like, a drone?
[00:30:26] Speaker B: No, it's open. I mean, we have about half the rainfall of the linganti, probably, or even less than that. Sometimes the vegetation is a lot thinner. The animals are quite shy. But, you know, it just depends sometimes you get groups of wild or that have never seen a human before and just don't understand they could be a threat. So they just walk straight in and, you know, they have. Have a problem. But certainly from the air, the drones would work. I would imagine it wouldn't be tricky, but obviously it's the reaction time and you need drones that would be able to fly at night as well.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, that's really interesting. I'm gonna sit on that a little bit more. Do you already have, like, funding or connections to make that happen? Or are you. Or is that.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: No, we don't. But, you know, it's ironic. Drones in itself are not that expensive nowadays.
You know, it's amazing how technologies come down, so. No, we don't. These are the steps we're taking. I mean, right now, I think we're at the stage where we want to definitively identify key things that will help wild dogs and help farmers and in turn reduce that what we see as increasing human wildlife conflict in the landscape and help everyone. So now, of course, we're always looking for support.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Okay, well, I'm just going to put that on my back pocket real fast because I have more questions to ask you. I did want to go back to the drought.
What do you think? If this drought continues and wildlife is having a hard time finding water, will the Botswana government step in or will everyone just let nature play out? Or what do you think? What happened?
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Well, I can't see in Botswana, it depends where you are. So it's amazing. Nowadays you don't get many areas where wildlife doesn't have access to water. If you think about it, water is just everywhere. Our situation is unique because we outside of national parks, so there's no pumped water. The farmers struggle, they don't have water. So water they get, they have to bowser in and they look after it. So it's not obviously available for wildlife, but also the wildlife there's used to surviving without water. I mean, if wildlife have food, they have water, they don't need water. The danger with providing water is wildlife then becomes quite sedentary and dependent on water and it affects their movement. And then when there is a drought, they're not resistant, so they actually die. So, yeah, look, I mean, what we've been experiencing in the last two months is extreme heat.
It really is. And I think for the, for the carnivores in that landscape, probably an issue is cool, maybe using water to keep cool. They maybe don't need the hydration, but they need some cooling mechanism. We don't have the same shade as other parts of Botswana. So where this will go, I don't know. I think now they're okay. I know we've had quite a few cases of lions moving into villages a bit earlier than normal, and maybe there's a water influence there. But going forward six months or to October, I don't know. I mean, I. The landscape's not fenced. The beauty of where we work is wildlife can move and I think that's probably what they'll do. They'll. They'll move into areas where they can find the food they need, which will help with water. And then if they need water, the water they need. So they'll probably move into the national parks. There's artificial water in the parks or they might move all the way up into the CK jars they have in the past.
So I think that the space is there. But yes, we still, we still worry because, I mean, we need to look at the records. We seem to be going into heat conditions and drought conditions that aren't part of our normal cycles. I mean, everyone talks about climate change, but obviously our first thing is what is going on here? Is this going to be year after year after year? Because if so, then that could be a factor.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. So now it's just like, watch and wait. See, what needs to happen is what kind of.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: I think. Watch and wait. Yeah, absolutely. And look in our landscape, who knows? I mean, the thing that we are aware of, if landscapes become fragmented and at the moment it's not, there's still a fair degree of movement allowed, then that's when you've got to think, okay, great, maybe we do need to put water into the system. You've got to put water as a tool, maybe at certain times of the year. So I think, yeah, watch and wait and see.
Of course, the human thing is when you see animals and they're thirsty and hot, you just want to give them water, don't you?
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: So we're not there yet and hopefully we don't get there, but, yeah, if there's another drought next year, then who knows?
[00:34:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So then let's switch over to lions.
What have you learned about the lions in the areas that you research? Anything that struck you or just. Yeah, I would love to learn more about them.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah, look, we have without our lions, actually, we started again with the local students, an amazing guy called Kito Mechi naka. So he did his masters up in the makarikadi, the western side, Potesi. Maybe now ten years ago, time flies. I'm not quite recall exactly when he finished, but that was our entry point into line work. We also did a lot of line work in the CKGR at the time. The government really wanted information on just the numbers of lines, the distributions. There was a big issue with lines dying at the time and also a lot of human wildlife conflicts. So we did quite a bit of work in the CKGR and of PhD students. Actually, an australian guy, he led that work and then moving into the kalakari. To be honest, we didn't want to study lions, actually.
We felt there were more important studies on animals that were more important to the ecosystem. Springbok numbers, for instance, had been declining, so we had a student called Sepa Moatsy who did his masters on Springbok. I think he finished that about three years ago.
We started a lot of vulture work as well, and raptors, I mean, vultures have, you know, they're going through a big crisis and we really kept away from lions. And then, unfortunately, the lion conservation will change. I mean, it's now, sadly, because of body parts and the value of teeth and lion claws and the shortage of tigers in Asia, you know, lions have kind of become the next, the third most profitable thing to poach, if you like, after rhino, elephants.
And with most of our rhinos being taken out of the wilds, not all of them, but most of them into protected areas, we sense there's going to be a move towards poaching lions, basically. I think that's certainly what's happened.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Have you seen this in your time researching lions, that there has been an increase in poaching and catching? Have you caught poachers?
Yeah, this is definitely concerning.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I mean, it's, it's common knowledge through the conservation world and the lion worlds all through Africa. Okay, not just Botswana. I mean, you know, through everywhere that line, body parts are in demand and lions get killed for their body parts. And that's where we work, is no different. We slightly tricky landscape because we have got Namibia to our west and South Africa to our south.
And wherever you have wildlife living on international boundaries, there's always a. A bit more wildlife crime there, because what people can do is cross over into Botswana, commit crime and then jump back and you can't follow them, for instance.
And the same with South Africa, or indeed, people from Botswana can jump over to Namibia and then jump back. So wherever you get borders, especially three different countries, you're always going to get a bit of wildlife crime and. Yeah, so there's no question it does happen. It's. And I think that's why we moved into working with lions, because we were worried, again, our landscapes. KD one, it's a wildlife management area. KD two, KD twelve. And maybe in the future, KD 15.
You know, we did some surveys there in 2013, but really there was very little known about the distribution of lines outside the park. Our intuition was that the numbers had declined in certain areas of the WMA's, and our survey has certainly shown that, you know, so we're really just trying to get a step into spending time with lions, doing the research and just trying to see if that is actually, you know, how relevant that threat of the lion bone trade is. And I think it is relevant. It will be relevant and it will be increasingly relevant.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Were you able then to get solid numbers of. Because you also did the lions survey, too, right?
[00:38:37] Speaker B: It was the same survey. It was just, you know, looking for lions, looking for wild dogs. The survey worked better for lions than it did for wild dogs. And, yeah, so the results of that, we've, you know, had a wonderful support from line recovery fund and putting that survey together, to be honest, it's a very new method. It's not an estimate.
You're not in some in the surveys we've done in the past. You record line spore and the density of line spore. You record, you extrapolate into a number of lines you think live in the landscape, or you can use camera traps and camera traps extrapolate out to give you an estimate of the number of lines of the landscape. So what we've done is we've. We did try camera traps in the survey for lines. They didn't work that well. But essentially the. The basis of the survey is it's not an estimate, it's almost real. You identifying every single line, both left and right whisker spots, you're counting them.
We had to drive through the entire landscape, so you can't just search in one area, you've got to search every single area.
And then there is a little bit of modeling in terms of the model is calculates the numbers of lines you may have missed and then you get your final estimate. So it's a really, really accurate way of estimating line numbers. And. Yeah, I mean, I think a survey will show there's still great line numbers out there, but the distribution is a bit of a worry. They seem to be more towards the park areas, if you like, and as you move out into the village areas and across to Namibia, that the numbers drop off hugely.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: Is that because of conflict with local communities or what is it that's driving that, do you think?
[00:40:08] Speaker B: I think human wildlife conflict is there. Of course. There's no doubt. I mean, farmers do, you know, do get killed by or. Sorry, not farmers. Lions do get killed by farmers. I think it's more serious than that, though. I think, sadly, illegal hunting or poaching is a big issue all through Botswana, and I think lion prey is going, and if lions are moving in those areas and they're looking for something to eat and the Hemsbach have gone and the eland have gone, then obviously the cow is the next step. Wild dogs in that way, a little bit more adaptable because they can eat small prey. As I said, a cape here steambox is a big part of their diet. Dikers.
So I think with. With lions, it's human wildlife conflict, but I think it's also just their prey base is disappearing in those areas.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: I think this might be a good time to then switch to your work with the local communities, because I know that that's a big pillar of what you do. You said like, that applied conservation. So then what does that work look like? Yeah, I would just really love to learn more about the community work, too.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: Well, one of the reasons we moved into the Kalakadi where we are is we realized that, you know, the communities were intrinsic to the conservation of the wildlife in the area. The communities were the big winners or losers, depending on what happened to the wildlife. It's not easy farming area. There's a lack of water. So most communities and most stakeholders within the communities that the best way to have some sort of decent income and for their kids and so forth was to keep the wildlife there. And the areas we're working in are very specific. So KD Chu has one community called Zutzwa, and it's a mixture of San people, if you like, and Bakalakari people. So the indigenous sand bushmen, if you like, and then also Bakalakari people. And KD is their ancestral land, if you like, and they have the rights to that area to try and benefit from the resources there. So essentially what's been happening there forever is they've never really received any benefit. So there's never really been any. Any motivation to conserve the area, and there haven't been many job opportunities. So, you know, the communities are poor. So if you're looking for a livelihood, then jumping onto your horse and hunting is probably your only option, really.
And it's been the same in KD one, which is just to the north of KD two. So these two kds together are almost 20,000 square kilometres. Okay. So that's almost as big as the Kruger National park.
And it's only two areas we were working in. And in KD one, the three villages that have similar sorts of backgrounds as well. So it was clear that we had to give the community some livelihood options. We had to give the community some economic space from wildlife. We had to give the community some incentive. We had to make sure the communities had money to buy food before you could really start trying to educate and move, just to try to reduce illegal hunting or poaching. So I think that's why we've spent a lot of our time and energy working with these communities, because their well being is crucial to the conservation of the wildlife in the area.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: So then what are the projects? What's working? Yeah, because it makes sense.
If you don't have food on your table, how can anybody even think about caring about wildlife? Like it's just, it's just humanity. Like, yeah, yeah. So what's working?
[00:43:27] Speaker B: Well, I think, look, communities, it's always a learning process. These villages are small, okay? So that from 300 to 700 people max living in them, so that's really small. I think what they need is employment.
They need to get income so they, they have a job, ideally income based from wildlife. So if it's through ecotourism or through hunting, there's a connection to their income coming from a group that is wildlife focused or from an ngo like ourselves as KRC. So we've got a big push to create employment. It isn't always easy to create meaningful employment and that's, you know, you've getting people to work who've never had a job, you're trying to find jobs where they can use the skills they've got. Tracking, of course, is a good one. We're also very aware that the jobs for trackers are mostly male oriented, so we're really pushing hard to employ women.
So a big part of it is just projects. Any project that's got employment in wiki. And so, for instance, KD two now has an ecotourism partner in the landscape and so does KD one. So we've set up a boom and we've got what we call the boom lady team where the six ladies that work and any car that goes through the ladies are there to just take down the registration and issue campsites and stuff like that. So there's not a lot of tourism, but it's creating employment for what we call the boom lady teams and the scouts. We employ lots of scouts.
They've got a cross job where they're herding livestock to try and keep them closer to the village and not going deep into the conservation area. I think that's been important. We've also done a lot of training with women and men to go and check our camera traps that we have in the landscape to check the safe and in time to learn how to download them and look at the pictures.
Environmental education is a key role. We've got adult conservation groups. We've realized a long time ago that kids are great and amazing, but so many adults in Botswana want to know more about the bush. So we've set up adult conservation groups in two villages and then actually done a whole variety of projects that aren't specifically related to wildlife. You know, we've, we've included farmers in some of the projects we've, we've enabled. We've included schools, the different sports teams we've included. So I think it's just generally trying to include as many sections of the community as possible to feel they're getting some benefit from an NGO understanding we're there only because the wildlife is there and if we go, then, then all those different stakeholders won't work and there's a lot to do. I mean, these communities, there's big problems with gender violence, big problems with alcohol. You know, it's definitely a journey. We've working with women for conservation Botswana.
I think they call KLC the big brother, but they did an amazing job last year where they did a workshop for 1112 year old girls just to try to prep them for, you know, what the next two or three years would look like for them. And I think hopefully they'll come back this year.
So just a whole variety of projects really just, you know, build stress, bring employment, bring incomes and just wherever you can make people understand it comes from the wildlife. And hopefully that eventually will, or not eventually, but quite quickly, reduce poaching and also give people an alternative to becoming farmers, which isn't the best thing in that landscape. It's not the most profitable and it's not the best route forward.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: And it sounds like there is a little bit of tourism. Is there any chance that this could be a, like, tourism, tourism destination? I've never been to that part of Botswana. So is there a chance, I mean, there's just so much money that goes into the delta and like, the other parts of Botswana and just, it would be great if the whole entire country could benefit from all of that somehow, but I've never been there. I don't know.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Look, there's a chance, yes, I think one of the problems in Botswana, and I can't speak outside of Botswana, but a lot of these area to area places are disappearing because the economic stock don't add up to do profitable tourism, and operators can't function profitably there. So we've got a partnership with a tourist operator who, you know, is jumping into the landscape.
They call on our safaris and our goal is to try and make it possible for them to do eco tourism there. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's profitable. And the only way you're going to conserve these landscapes is by subsidizing it, to be honest. Uh, you know, it's very far. The nearest airport is. Well, the nearest place with toys land is gabs mound. It's a six or seven hour drive just to the edge of these areas. So maybe a ten hour drive into the bush. People don't to do that. It's a very expensive flight to Kunsti if you want to get close enough. A lot of people can't afford that. And increasingly, people like aircon, you know, they want plush loos and luxury. So it's a very specific market which is there.
But I think we're just trying to develop a situation where economics don't kill the landscape and make the wildlife disappear. So if we can bring tourists to the area, even if it cost us money and our partnership money, and they can do bushmen walks and do village tours, and the villagers see tourists there, which helps them be motivated to conserve the landscape, then I think that for us will be a success. So there's a lot to do still. But yeah, trying to bring tourism in is a key thing, but the economics don't help and it's a big battle for us.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. And yeah, just. I'm all about the solutions, just like you. Like, how can we make this work? Like, what can we do? Since, you know, everything is financially driven, which makes sense, and everybody deserves to have a good life and food on their table and not have to worry about those kinds of things. So, like, how can we make that work while also protecting wildlife? So I guess then what's, what's next? If you're like, looking into the future, like this year or next five years, next ten years, what's next for KRC? What do you have your sights on? What do you think is going to be most important to continue?
[00:49:26] Speaker B: I think our voucher work and rep to work, definitely. We've got a, I call it a sister group, but we're kind of the same. About ten years ago, we, we saw there were things happening to vultures that were bad and raptors generally. So we set up our umbrella group, if you like, called Raptors Botswana. And we spent ten years actually doing a lot of work with vultures. And the threats are clear to vultures, which is kind of nice. So your conservation accents are easily guided.
Farmers don't hate vultures. They like them, actually. They don't want to kill them, you know, and we just did a good study with Rochelle and Petler. A local student did a masters through UCT Cape Town University, Cape Town, the fits. And she did 23 road surveys and joined that to a data set. Another student of ours did, Becky Garbert, a few years back in the north. And the bottom line is the small raptors are really struggling along with the vultures. So I think we're keen to really look at what we can do to help that group of animals, if you like, because I think they've got what's happening.
[00:50:24] Speaker A: Like, what's the big issues?
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Well, you know, we think that what the mammals are not really understood in some areas, although there's been a lot of work done on certain species, for sure. But the birds, there's this huge gap, say with vultures, it's poisoning, which is a big one, and that's linked to poaching and also to human wildlife conflicts.
It's also food availability across their range. I mean, when we put devices, satellite devices into vault just ten years ago, we had no idea where they'd go with the hanging botswana, with the hooded stay in the delta. But, you know, they move right the way through southern Africa, basically. So it's a big conservation challenge. And with the. With the smaller falcons. Yeah, look, I think it's just changing habitats, landscapes changing people moving into landscapes, wildlife disappearing, increasing use to pesticides, you know, populations of humans increasing across the range. So there's a whole variety of reasons, and I. I think that's definitely why. Even as KLC in that area, we're really trying to focus on landscape conservation now. It's kind of a. What does it mean, landscape conservation? It means you. You can learn key things about particular species in the landscape and you can try and help them in situations where they live in conflict with farmers, but your goal is to conserve the landscape, not the individual animal. So I think that's a big part of our goal. In the next few years, continue working with the communities, continue changing attitudes, continue giving livelihoods, continue incentivizing them to protect their wildlife, reduce poaching, eventually maybe even themselves, be guardians of that landscape and chase that poachers from other villages and other areas.
So whatever route we're going to take, I think that's going to be key. There's no point doing individual conservation actions with individual species or individual animals if the landscape is disappearing. So I think whatever we all do, we'll be motivated by that.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: That makes total sense. I really love the landscape ecosystem level conservation movement that's been happening. It's great to have these umbrella species or these species that people love and identify with, and I want to give to the lions. It's great to get people interested, but to actually make sure that our wildlife continues on. I love the landscape ecosystem level conservation movement that's happening. So that's great to hear. Hear that the work in Botswana is also moving in that direction so that we can keep everything around. We can keep our dogs, our hyenas, our raptors, our lions, our leopards, cheetahs, all the things, steambock, wildebeest, zebra, and also the beautiful landscapes themselves, because botswana is so diverse, like going to the salt pans, but then also being in the delta and also being in the Mopani trees. It's a beautiful place.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: It is. But I think we're so lucky to have the wetland systems, the arid areas and the dry land areas. But, you know, it's also boching. Wasn't a big thing about Swanna ten years ago, and I think the whole culture has changed across Africa and the world. So I think for Botswana, we also. We've had a bit of a reality check, and I think everywhere across the landscape is going to have to try hard to conserve what's there. But, yes, it's a wonderful country. Definitely worth a visit. Very beautiful.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And then, just to go back to you for a second, I love to ask this question.
You've been in the field, I mean, years now. Do you have a particular story that was just crazy or wild or awe inspiring that has really stuck with you that you would like to share with us? Because I would love to hear it.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: To be honest, I probably don't, I think. I mean, for me, the memories and look, I'm still. I'm turning 50 this year, so hopefully I've got a few more years in the field. But I'm not young. No. I think for me, it's just about the wildlife and the trust, you know, I know when, for me, some of the most challenging and rewarding times have been with wild dogs. It's amazing when you get to know a pack of twelve wild dogs, you don't even know why you recognize them, but within two minutes or 20 seconds, you've identified everyone without knowing why you know who they are.
When you get to the degree where you see they have different personality traits from a wild animal point of view, if you like, different generations of wild dogs or siblings or good mates, and they hang together under this tree and another group over there, some of the dogs are bullies, some of them are not. Some dogs the rest of the pack don't like. Some are great at hunting, some are curious, some are happy for you to come close. So I think for me, to be honest, it's just having the privilege and the luck to be with animals where they trust you and accept you and you learn about them individually, not just as an animal, if you like, but they remain animals, of course.
And I think for me, that's been the most amazing thing. And certainly, I think with wild dogs, definitely, they are so innocent, they are so vulnerable, and they are so easy to kill if you want to. So for me, I think most of the moments have been being with wild dogs, to be honest. I mean, when we were spending time with them, would follow them, then sleep away from them, and the dogs would often come and sit by the fire with us and hang with you and stay on the edge, or a leopard would come into the area, they'd be a bit worried, so they'd run into the camp and stay by you. So not necessarily good things to happen in terms of being an ecologist, but on a personal level, you know, for me, that bond with wildlife is great. And obviously that's good and bad because when a wildlife doesn't make it or dies or has issues, you've got to deal with it, you know? But for me, I think that that's probably it. But of course, I've seen many amazing things in terms of what wildlife do and how they survive and all the rest of it.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
Still to this day, one of my favorite wildlife encounters was with a hunting dog pack in the delta. Still to this day, like, that was 2019. And I've. I've been all over the world. I've seen so many predators. I've done so. I've just been privileged to see so many incredible things. And still to this day, that is one of my favorite experiences I've ever had with wildlife was being with two and a half hours with a hunting pack and it was just, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like that. It's just amazing.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: And it's funny that kalahari, they do hunts typically, if you like, where they join as a pack and chase after kudu or hartebeest. But, you know, they so often spend time hunting with their nose. They just spread out in a massive line and they sniff and they have a walk, essentially a quick walk, and then they pick up the stale of the smell of a steam buckle dike and they follow it through and then they find a diker that's just frozen under a bush saying, I'm not here. And then they go for that hunt. And you literally might have two wild dogs killing one steamboat over here, another two wild dogs killing a dike over there, and a third group that just miss out because they didn't get food. So I think for me, just the behaviors and how they've adapted to the local environment and survived with that water and dealt with the heat. And, you know, we've definitely, we definitely work with animals that haven't seen humans before. You know that there's no question. So, so, yeah, I mean, but definitely wild dogs were painted wolves. I mean, in some ways, the wild dog is not a great name. I know a lot of tourists used to come to Botswana when I was a guy. They still come, of course, and they actually weren't interested in seeing wild dogs really. You know, it was more lions or leporatus. So I think there's still a lot of education going to go out there to people that come from overseas to understand they're not domestic dogs gone wild, they're own endangered species. Botswana has only 1200, which is not a lot, actually, when you look at the global population of about 6000 individuals. So sure, I think the wild dogs are special, but all the wildlife is.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: And then how can somebody follow your work, follow what's going on, maybe support you, support KRC, maybe even reach out if they have an idea about maybe how they could support or collaborate or anything. So what is the best way for somebody to go about that?
[00:58:12] Speaker B: We're still a small nGra.
I think we, there's still only eight of us full time at the moment. I'm the only expert in the team that the rest are from within Botswana. Obviously, we employ a lot of people in the communities, which is a different deal. So we do have a Facebook page, we do have an Instagram page, but we're not brilliant on it, to be honest. We're not always posting. We're not always there but we can be found if you just Google KLC Keller research and conservation. You'll find us on Instagram, you'll find us on Facebook. We do have a website which you can find if you Google and otherwise just link with it through those platforms. Send a message, we'll pick up on them. And sure, of course, happy to answer questions or interact with anyone that's got interest in conservation.
[00:58:51] Speaker A: Awesome. And of course, I'll have all of those links in the show notes, everybody. So if you want to go to one spot, just go to reallogy.com, look up this episode and I'll be sure that everything is right there. And if you would love to talk to Glenn, by all means, I'd be happy to connect you guys as well. So again, Glenn, thank you. I just learned so much and I need to now learn more about browns and everything. But maybe hopefully next time we'll be actually in Botswana chatting. Or if you come to the US, that would be fantastic. So again, Glenn, I really appreciate it. I can't wait to share your story with everybody.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: No, that's great. Thank you so much for the invitation and come to Botswana. Come be a tourist in the Calicuti. Pay your bucks, do your conservation and meet the communities and see what wildlife you've got.
[00:59:34] Speaker A: Sounds like so much fun. I'm in.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:59:41] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights, and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
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