[00:00:00] Speaker A: Imagine a world where the howl of a wolf becomes a rallying cry for conservation, echoing through your headphones and into your heart. Today, we're diving into the fascinating intersection of wildlife rescue, podcasting, and the timeless connection between humans and wolves.
Welcome to rewildology, the nature podcast that delves into the human side of conservation, travel, and rewilding the planet. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell, conservation biologist and adventure traveler.
I'm thrilled to welcome to the show John Calset III and Steven Rivera from Wolf Connection.
John and Steven have worked and volunteered at Wolf Connection for several years, and together they host the Wolf Connection podcast, which explores the links between humans and wolves, but their work goes far beyond just storytelling. Wolf Connection is a unique educational sanctuary and wilderness retreat center in California where rescued wolves become teachers, helping people reconnect with nature and themselves.
In this special crossover episode, John, Steven, and I dive into the transformative power of media in conservation.
We explore how podcasting can be a how heard around the world, spreading awareness and inspiring action from wolf therapy to wildlife education. We also discuss how John and Steven are using their voices and the voices of their wolves to change lives and protect our planet's wild spirit.
Who knows? In today's information age, conservation's most powerful tool might just be a well crafted narrative and a play button.
Before I let you go, be sure to subscribe to this show wherever you are listening to. Never miss a future episode. Follow the show on your favorite social media app and share this episode with a friend who you think will enjoy it, too. Sharing is caring friends.
All right, everyone, please enjoy this fun conversation with John and Steven.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Steven and I and our guest and actually her guest. So we're doing something a little bit different today where we are doing sort of a podcast swap, but interviewing somebody who's been in the space just as long or as close to as long as we have been doing incredible work with conservation biology. Incredible guests. And she is also interviewing us. Those of you that are listeners of the Wolf connection pod will now be listeners of rewildology. If you aren't, we do recommend that you go there. She is a conservation biologist, adventure traveler, but also doing some really awesome stuff with rewildology and working in the travel space and conservation space. Brooke Mitchell from Ohio. Brooke, it's great to meet you and make this connection. I'm glad we've been working on this for a few months, but how are you doing? And, you know, what's going on in Ohio and with you. I know you're taking a break this week because you're starting a new gig.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Yeah. It's so crazy that we're sitting down in this massive transitionary period in my life. So, as you just said in your wonderful introduction, my background is in conservation tourism. That is the profession that I have chosen because it essentially monetizes nature. It puts a dollar sign on alive and thriving ecosystems. And as we've known, as we've learned, that pretty much the only way we're gonna keep stuff around is if we make it worth something, we make it valuable. And one of the best ways we have is through conservation tourism. And there is a difference. Like that is when you have tourism, that its goal and its purpose is to leave the place better than it was before. So it's very easy for. There's a lot of bad things out there about tourism, over tourism, a lot of those things. And that is real, and that is true. But what I do is particular niche in that.
So, yeah, I actually found the industry during my masters of all things.
I was originally in, like, the zookeeping space for a very long time in zoos, but I just.
I needed to pursue something more, something that had direct impact on the wildlife that I love so much. And then during all my grad research, that is when I found through all kinds of different papers and everything, the power of tourism. So I switched to that field and have been in it since. And, yeah, this transitionary period that I'm telling you about. So during COVID I actually lost my career job with natural habitat adventures.
And for the past several years, I've worked with the wild source as the director of conservation and a whole bunch of other things. I mean, in a small company, as you guys know, you wear lots and lots of hats. I wore lots of hats.
But just starting next Monday, I'm actually going back to Nathab, which is wild, as their webinar host and producer. So I'm gonna be producing two shows, like, which is freaking crazy. So I was like, oh, my gosh. I guess that what I've built this side thing, this side hobby, which has become something way bigger than I could have ever imagined. Rewadology has now got me a similar role in my career field at my former company. I don't know. Don't ask me. It's like Twilight Zone right now.
It's like, is this real? So this week, I'm taking a little bit of a chill pill because training my replacement, it was quite a lot. I'm still actually working part time at the wild source to continue moving forward. A lot of our conservation efforts, which we can definitely get into later.
But, yeah, so I haven't fully stepped away from that, I guess if you're wondering. I don't have much free time, is what I'm saying. So I'm going to start another job. I'm going to continue part time to move conservation forward there. And I produce this show.
Yeah, it's a lot in good ways. It's all good. I've signed up for this. It's my fault.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we've all signed up for stuff like this in such a way. It's very interesting that you say, going back to your passion or not even your passion, what your job was initially and what you said there in your first couple of sentences is, I think Steven and I sort of feel the same way, is that when we started this podcast, right around when Covid was we, I don't think. I think we had. We had the vision forward about what we wanted this to look like, what we wanted this to hit, how we wanted to make this thing into a thing that people actually recognized. But it has, I think, superseded a lot of expectations. I don't know if you feel that way, Steven. Still not now that we just passed our four year mark, but congrats. It's way. Thank you. No. And you're what? Three and a half?
[00:07:08] Speaker C: Three and a half. I'm not that far behind you guys. I'm close.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know. I guess. Snapshot. Stephen, what do you think, four years later, where are you sitting?
[00:07:21] Speaker D: Well, I can tell you this. I've become.
We've talked to so many intelligent people that I feel like I've gone back to school somehow. You know, like I've. I've been able to go back to school and get another degree in something that I find really interesting, which is just. Which is wildlife in general. I mean, I do love wolves, but certainly my passion as far in terms of this context, I have other passions, of course, but this, in terms of the context of this podcast, is I love learning from smart folks, just kind of what their experiences have been and how it's going to impact the natural world, because I do spend so much time in the natural world and I do have such a. Just a absolute love and admiration for it. So I think in the beginning, you know, we. I think. I don't know. I think loosely, we intended, right, to talk more about the sanctuary that. That we worked at. And we do do that often, and we do intend to do it even more.
But I've been pleasantly surprised that it kind of also incorporates biology, really, at the forefront of what we talk about most of the time.
And so I have selfishly just been absorbing people's knowledge. So I'm certainly pleased and satisfied about that.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: I mean, how do you feel? I mean, Brooke, for you and I feel the same. It's almost though we're teaching a masterclass without being the masters of the class. We're just literally the conduits of it. Brooke, you go the whole other. I mean, you cover the globe. I mean, when you. Every time we see posts of yours, it's some other incredible country, an amazing guest, fantastic stories. How do you keep it?
There's no really. I mean, you keep it new and fresh just because of the guests you have. But what's the.
From? Coming from a scholastic background initially, how do you see this impact as different or possibly better than what you were studying in school? Cause it seems as though you're having a further reach. And Steve and I, I think, feel the same way by doing this in a medium such as a podcast or somewhere that more people can access it for free, no less.
[00:09:42] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a fantastic point, especially since a lot of the guests I have on are PhDs, which I know you guys have the same thing. They're PhDs. They. They lead these big projects. Like, I have some big guests coming on that are leading some of the biggest rewilding projects in the world. Like, those are huge. That's huge. And we can go online and we can read these articles I used to read, and I still do read tons of scientific papers, like you said. But the difference is there's so much context that's left out until you sit down and have a conversation with somebody and you hear their story and you hear how this whole project or paper or scientific finding came to be, and you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tell me how that happened.
What was the thought process that brought you there? Like, take me from square one so that I not only can I understand, but helping, breaking it down for anybody listening. Because even though guests of rewadology, I mean, our listeners of rewadology, they have some sort of interest in conservation or wildlife or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean we know the exact of, you know, blue whale migration going through the Galapagos Islands. Like, that's very specific. So going through that, I just. I like to take a. Do a deep dive of, you know, staying high level. Like, going like a final, like an hourglass shape. Like, how can we start from the very top? So we can all understand this, and then let's get down to the nitty gritty of their expertise and then, like, let's take it back out and pieced it all together. And I feel like it's. I mean, and the episodes are like an hour to an hour and a half long. I mean, that's practically a movie. So imagine, you know, almost 200 episodes worth of that amount of knowledge is, like, incredible. And like you said, yeah, I have met people. I've had people on from all over the world. We're almost up to 40 countries.
A lot of different voices in some countries that have already been on. The two of the rewilding guests that I'm gonna have on soon are in two new countries that haven't been represented yet. And they are also, like I said, big story. So, like, every single month, I'm trying to add more countries. I'm trying to show this beautiful world that we have and that even though we might not all look alike, we might not have the same background, we all love this planet, and we're all working to make it better and then highlighting those voices and translating their work into something that we can all understand and support.
So I feel like my education, I feel like, was very self centered, meaning it was to get my base level knowledge up to a point where I can understand all of these bigger concepts and then use, I guess, my personality or whatever you want to say to translate that into something that we can all understand. Like, I don't dumb it down.
I will say that rewad ology is definitely, like, a higher level podcast. I don't know exactly how you. Maybe you guys can help me find a better term for it, but it's not dumbed down. It's not a pg rated show. Like, it is actually pretty not. And we do take higher concepts and do deep dives, and they're very science based or personal based or going through crazy stories with poachers and, like, all kinds of stuff like that. So, yeah, yeah, it's been cool.
[00:13:15] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, I definitely relate to that, too. I think that's where I'm at at this point. We've had enough episodes where my base level knowledge of the topic is to a point where I feel like, okay, now I get. Now the cup is spilling over a little bit. I think now it's just time to sort of share and do deeper dives into what we've already talked about. But it is kind of crazy how we've done literally hundreds of episodes, and it's. I mean, you. It's so hard to.
It's so hard to cover. I mean, you can't cover everything. It's. That's another thing I've learned, is just we've. We've talked to so many people, and I still feel like there are millions of questions unanswered and a million stories that we haven't been able to tap into.
And I think that's where we're at sort of, too, is like, well, how can we.
How can we take what we've already talked about and not just continue to talk about it? Like, how can we go to another place or to talk to another person with a different story?
So I think we're at an interesting crossroads.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: Well, how about you guys? Like, I just told you all the things about me, but I want to hear all the things about you guys. So tell me. Okay, wolves. How in the world did both of you get into wolves? What is wolf connection? And now you're podcasters for four years. Like, that's a lot in between.
So how about, John, I'll start with you. Tell me, what's your story?
[00:14:40] Speaker B: I mean, it's.
Well, originally grew up on the east coast, so I was a New York kid, long island for the majority of my life. And I'm sure I'll surpass that at some point. I won't be living in New York for. I'll be living in other places longer than I will be in New York for the rest of my life, I believe. Um, but I was your typical. I was your typical kid that as a young, you know, grade school, loved animals. I was, you know, painting jaguars and I actually painted a wolf. And I was in 6th or 7th grade. Unbeknownst to me, that that would be the. The life track, which is weird, but, you know, book reports, that was my, that was my jam. I loved animals, you know, wore the animal shirts. Whatever it was, didn't really matter, you know, ranger Rick and all that good stuff. But when I was. When I was young and then I took a turn, I was a sports guy, so played sports, went to commschool, you know, went to state university in New York at Cortland and went to a small communications program. I was able to get my hands on everything, so cameras and, you know, radio equipment and all that stuff. So I was in it, which was really, I think, beneficial. I'll never, I'll never poo poo the state university system, because that if I went to a bigger university, I would have never been able to do what I'm doing now. Because I was able to do everything. I was able to do voice work. I was able to create movies. I was able to have a radio show. So that, to me, really gave me the knowledge I needed for comms and communication, you know, did that for a long time in New York. And then my wife and I moved out here, gosh, ten years ago already, and we were just looking for something different. And she's a huge wolf person. And one afternoon or one weekend, Easter weekend, I think, gosh, eight years ago, she was, let's go to walk with wolves. We found wolf connection. They were the only ones open on a Sunday when I was off. And basically the rest is history.
You know, there was an awakening there for both her and fry.
Wolves were her spirit animal for forever. She started volunteering, I think the next week I got my schedule together, and three months later, I started volunteering. And the reason that I stuck with this place specifically is that I.
I mean, more so now, eight years in, just knowing the work that I do actually impacts the animals. I can see the impact on a weekly basis. So I know when we're feeding, when we're taking them to the vet, when we're taking them around for tours, if we're doing, we're shifting things at the sanctuary, too. So to me, it's literally hands, all hands on deck, all paws in, and really seeing the change happening all the time. And that was something that I don't know if I would have gotten if I went to a larger place, you know, a zoo or, you know, and this is, again, not saying anything about any of those places, like the ASPCA or whatever else, but I know on the ground, the things that I do matter, the things that I do have an impact on the human pack and the wolf pack itself. And so that just was a big deal. And like I said, I think earlier, Steven and I really, when the pandemic hit and we had to shut our doors, so nobody on site, and, you know, because of the precautions that had to be taken, how are we going to get the message of what wolf connection was doing with all the programmatic stories, all the wolf lessons? How are we going to continue to tell those stories and tell the wolf stories and reach that out beyond the borders of the gates? The podcast was the logical choice in our minds, and there was, I'd say, very little hesitancy or pushback. There were just like, a couple things we had to navigate. And then ever since then, it's been, like Stephen has said, a huge, literally opening the box of knowledge for me and really being super, I don't even impressed isn't the word, but very lucky to be talking to these folks who have really dedicated their lives to this animal, these conservation efforts, these preservation efforts, and learning about the history also of this country and what it has meant to not only wolves, but all of the predators, because we have talked about bears and we've talked about mountain lions and coyotes and things of that sort. So I think that's. I think that's where, yeah, it kind of goes for me, and it's really, it opened up that kid inside again that was doing those book reports. So for me, that's where it, all it kind of goes back to, is that I found my little place where I can have my media and my animals and help both of those things for myself, selfishly, but also for the greater good.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: That's a beautiful story. Thanks for sharing. All right, your turn, Stephen, your turn. Tell me all the things.
[00:19:57] Speaker D: Well, I grew up on the east coast as well. I didn't know John there at all, but we just happened to grow up on the east coast, man. I'd say my, at least my journey to this point, funny enough, starts, I think, probably when I was around seven years old, when I got into playing music and I picked up a guitar at seven years old and just never put it down.
Yeah, growing up, I basically played music and spent time outside. That's. I mean, that's what I, those are the two things I focused most of my upbringing on. And I'd hike a lot in the White Mountains and Mount Washington in New Hampshire. And, yeah, I really loved being in the mountains.
I think I started climbing mountains when I was about seven with my dad. Up until then, up until I was about five, he carried me on his back, which he was an absolute monster for doing that because those mountains are hard to hike.
But, yeah, my dad was really into the mountains as well.
Not in a very concerted effort way. He was a very, like, let's just grab stuff and go out into the woods. And we, that's what we did. So we spent a lot of time in the mountains. At least when we spent time together, that's where it was.
So, yeah, my love for the outdoors definitely started very young. I just loved being in the mountains and I found my imagination was just really tapped in and turned on when I was in, in the mountains. I have, like, really weird, vivid memories of things that certainly did not happen, but I remember. I remember my imagination just going wild in the mountains. Like, if I do remember one thing that actually did happen, which was a little red squirrel was following us almost all the way up the mountain. And I have this wildly vivid memory of him, and I don't have very vivid memories of my childhood altogether. And so just going to show that my brain was really turned on in the woods, it was really active, so I really enjoyed being in that space.
But then I spent most of my young adult life pursuing music, and so I moved out to LA right after college. In college, I studied global studies, which was just a reason to go to college. I definitely wasn't going to use that as a major at any point. And I knew that when I started.
So I got my degree there. I didn't even go to my graduation, I just drove right out to Laden, so.
But I was pursuing music at the time. And I went there, had a manager, and I was going to be an artist. And that's what I wanted to do. That's what I've always wanted to do. So I was there making records and trying to figure out what I was made of in terms of music and what I could do. And then kind of the social media thing started up, which I didn't grow up with social media. So when the TikTok thing started and all of this kind of Instagram and vine stuff where everyone's, and doing these short, like, choreographed dances on, on Vine, I was thinking, I'm definitely not cut out for that. So I, that's genuinely what made me switch focuses from being an artist to being a producer, because I could still make music, I could still write, I could still do everything I love to do. I just wasn't going to be in the forefront anymore.
And so, yeah, I did that. Oh, I'm still doing that. But I, I focused on that for several years. And then I kind of what brought me to wolf connection was I was, so when I moved to LA, I was sort of missing my mountain. I mean, sort of just the mountains that I grew up in. And I honestly did not realize how close the mountains were to LA at the time. I had been so in studios for years, just focused on music, and then I realized, like, wow, the Sierra Nevada is nearby. You know, all these massive mountain chains are nearby. Why have I never gotten back into that, that part of my, of my life? And so I started visiting the Sierra Nevada very often, as often as I could. I would just escape to the, to the Sierra Nevada, and I climbed a lot of those mountains and I spent a lot of time out there. And then when I came back to LA. I was thinking, well, I bet there's places nearby that sort of will help me tap into that, too. I don't have to drive hours away to get it on a regular basis. And my buddy from the east coast, actually, another east coast guy, a lot of east coast folks around, even in LA, he moved to LA for a little bit, and he was like, man, I'm going to this wolf sanctuary. And I was like, I don't even know what that is, man. I don't have context for that whatsoever. So he said, I'm going to this wolf sanctuary, and I'm going to try to apply for a job, even though I'm only here for, like, six months. Let's see if they have some temporary positions. I said, that sounds awesome. He says, you should really come with me and check it out. And at the time, I was like, nah. So he went, he said, it's awesome. You gotta come. There's like this, this family and friends event coming up, so I can, I can invite you and you should just come and check it out. So I went up and Teo, our founder, was talking about just kind of what happens there. He does a great, you know, history speech. It's just a speech of beginning to current about wolf connection. And all I could think about was. Was like, oh, maybe this is a way that I can tap into that part of me all the time. Even though I spend most of my time in the studio in front of a computer, maybe I can kind of tap into that here still. So my brain immediately was thinking, hiking with wolves, that that's a. What is that like? That's crazy. So I raised my hand and a little bit facetiously, but also, seriously, I was like, when can I start hiking with wolves? And Teo was like, give him a. A form. So someone just passed me a form. I filled it out, and I came for the interview, and that's how I ended up there. Now, of course, at the time, I was thinking about hiking in the mountains and being. And doing it with wolves somehow. And I obviously had a certain vision of that, but it became a lot. It became a much different. The experience was much, much more substantial. There's a lot more substance and depth to it than simply hiking with wolves. And of course, I had to go through, like, years of scooping shit before I could do that anyway, so, yeah, so, yeah, and then, you know, wolf connection became like, a real, like, core part of my life. And I had all these experiences with recording and video. And so I started, yeah, the video thing. Just started because I was trying to make my own music videos because I didn't have money to pay someone else to do it. So I bought a camera and started shooting my own music videos. And that's genuinely how I got into video. And then I started getting clients and more gear. And so then I was capable of sort of doing some of those tasks at wolf connection. And so my. My job there went from pack care to filming, and then I moved out of the state, and I wanted to keep doing stuff there. So I continued to do the media stuff, but I was basically set up to help push this podcast and this media stuff along because I had done years and years and years and years and years of being in front of a computer, pressing a lot of buttons, making a lot of art. So, yeah, like John said, pandemic started. We were. We were thinking, how the heck do we reach out to people while nobody can be here? Because really, the whole beauty of wolf connection is that you go there and you experience the programmatic stuff and you're doing it with the animals there. So without that, how can we. What do we do? Like, how. We can't just sit around waiting for the pandemic to be over. We have no idea what's gonna be over. So we just thought, oh, well, let's take John's talent of hosting, my talent of working with all of this gear and this creative element. John's creative as well. But take all of those talents and sort of do something, and that just. It just turned into a podcast. So, yeah.
Yeah, that's where we're at.
[00:28:01] Speaker C: And here we are four years later.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: And here we are four years. Yeah. I mean, I think Steven and I don't think either of us really exemplify to what really the place means. And I know you asked that, too, Brooke, is that wolf connection really is such a unique space in that.
You know, there are a lot of. There's a lot of ways to do therapy. And I think that's part of really what wolf connection is. I mean, it is a sanctuary, but it's a people empowerment organization. And when you see people that go through sort of equine therapy with horses or any sort of animal, the dog therapy, for instance, it really opens up an avenue that is probably closed off to talk therapy and other traditional types. Right. And so the fact that Teo had started this really, this movement and this type of therapy, wherever using a wolf, a wolf dog, something that, again, people would not necessarily think, hey, we're going to use this apex predator as a therapy tool or as a way for folks to begin to open up. And really what the. What the beauty of this place is, is that you can really relate a lot of the wolves stories to the kids and the adults or the veteran. Whoever comes up can really see a mirror into what has happened with them or what they, or what has happened to maybe a family member or a friend or whatever it may be, because many of these wolves and wolf dogs have gone through loss, have gone through trauma, have gone through relocation, have gone through whatever it may be. And the similarities to many of the youth and the young adults that we work with in the school districts up in the valley north of La, the veterans that come through the Department of Mental Health, these folks are able to see this and impact it and live it without us really having to do. I mean, we're there to facilitate. We're just basically the conduits for what the wolves are able to teach. I know many of you that listen to our podcast, or maybe some of you that are listening from rewildology, and there is a little bit of that woo woo in there. And I can tell you, for being there as long as Steven and I have been there, the amount of times we have seen substantial, impactful change from single individuals, from groups of folks that come here that don't really know each other on a really, like, you know, primal level is incredible. I mean, we have had. I mean, there's too many stories to count with the facilitators that we have and the people that work these, these retreats and these programs that are really able to tap. Like you were saying when you. When you interview your guests, it's that hourglass, right? You go from the top, you go, you know, the middle, and then you. Right, the onion is peeled back two or three layers more than I think anything else in their lives has ever done. And that's happened with myself. I can't speak for Steven. I mean, I've tapped into some reservoirs that I didn't know I had in focusing on myself and what I have that's left over from my childhood, from my young adulthood, from where I'm at now at the age of 40. So it's.
This place really does just open you up to a new way of viewing things, of viewing nature and viewing this animal in particular, and also viewing yourself in a way that realizing you have the tools and the talent to make change in a positive way, not only for yourself, but your fellow person that lives anywhere across the globe. So that's. I hope I said that in the best way possible for anyone who's listening at Wolf connection. But that's. That's the crux and the base for what it's all about.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: And just out of curiosity, could you explain maybe a little bit more where your wolves and wolf dogs come from? I'm sure people listening to real body would be just a little interested in that. How do these animals get into your care?
[00:32:33] Speaker B: I mean, they come from, there's really three. There's three major places where wolves and wolf dogs come from. There's domestic ownership. So, yes, people domestically own, just like people who own turtles or whatever the heck else it is, an exotic. So a wolf or wolf dog coming from a domestic, domestic ownership, fur farms, which are still a thing, whether it's for. Yeah, for wolf fur or for other animals fur, where the wolves are actually being used as essentially garbage disposals or I. Other attractions and things of that sort, and then backyard breeding and sideshow attractions. So we've had, most of them come from a situation where either the folks are doing, in terms of domestic ownership. We have seen folks that have done the best they can up to a point when owning a wolf or wolf dog. And sometimes it reaches a crescendo or an event or something that happens, that there's kind of no turning back for the owner or the caretaker in which they can't take care of this wolf or wolf dog anymore. And so it really belongs in a sanctuary. It belongs in a place where it has room, where it has wolf and wolf dogs of its own kind, wolves and wolf dogs together to congregate, to be. I mean, they're pack animals. So there are some that have come from folks that have other dogs, which is a little bit better, but there's still. There's a primal and a natural instinct that happens where there is confusion. And these specific animals need to be around other wolves and wolf dogs so that they can find their place inside of a while an unnatural pack find a place that works for them, and that there is care around the clock, 365 days a year. Not that some of these folks don't do that, but it's all the time. There's vet care, there's whatever it is, and that's kind of what we do.
And that feeds into the imprint that happens. Right. A lot of these imprints. We have a wolf dog named Nova that was severely abused in the first three months of her life, and that imprint has lasted through her eleven years that she's been with us. And so we do the best we can in terms of giving these wolves and wolf dogs a space to find themselves, give them the best care possible, give them the right food, the right nutrients, whatever they need to thrive and survive in a place that would work for them.
And it's, we get inquiries daily, you know, weekly for sure, sometimes daily, with wolves and wolf dogs that are in need, because there is no protection, there is no regulation, there's nothing about that. So they can basically come from any corner of the United States and sometimes outside of it, whether it be Canada or Mexico, and we do the best we can in terms of helping as many as we can in the amount of space that we're allotted and the amount of wolves and wolf dogs were allowed to caretake. So we have 45 currently, we are able to rescue and help up to 60. So we have a pretty good capacity. But there's many out there that need help that sometimes we can't get to, that there's maybe some politicking involved and there's ones that, you know, we just, we have to do some education too, like I'm sure you do also with, you know, which you do with your episodes, is educating about the real, you know, the realities of whatever species is. And for us, it's wolves and wolf dogs, and telling people sometimes, hey, you probably have, you know, a husky here, or you have a shepherd here or something like that. It's just the way that they are and, and making sure that we, we farm that education and that information out. And that's also part of the podcast too, is making sure, hey, this is, this is the information you need to know that, you know, do you have a wolf dog, yes or no? And if you don't, don't label it as such, because now you're putting that animal in danger or in harm's way when it doesn't need to be. And we've run into some of those situations.
[00:36:53] Speaker C: Also, speaking of situations, I know just, I, so, predators are my thing. Predators are my love. Big cats are my love. And so they are the driving force of everything I've ever done since I was a little girl. Like, I've always wanted to conserve big cats, which is why, I mean, I took a, you wouldn't know that by looking at me now, which is good, because I don't want to be that crazy like white girl big cat lady, but they are my motivation.
But there are a lot of similarities with what you just said with wolves and big cats. And so I'm curious, and you can divulge as much as you want, or you don't want. So since we have these platforms, sometimes we might have controversial guests on or talk about controversial things. You're talking about wolves, which still to this day, to this day, like today, like we are recording in July 2024, there are, wolves are still one of the biggest controversial wildlife topics in North America, probably around the world. Every time I talk to anybody who's a wolf expert, there is some sort of something going on, whether I'm talking to them in Africa, I'm talking to them in Italy, I'm talking to them in Yellowstone.
So could you maybe tell us, I'm sure your listeners would also be interested about a little what's happened behind the scenes of having a wolf podcast, a wolf Pro podcast, and has anything like happens?
[00:38:26] Speaker D: Not really. I'll be honest.
[00:38:28] Speaker C: Really?
[00:38:29] Speaker D: Yeah. We don't get a lot of argumentative attention.
It's happened, but it's been pretty civilized. And I think part of that is because we talk to biologists, and from my seat, I've tried to make it sort of clear that I personally don't want to talk too much about what we think, about what other people think, about what we think.
We want to talk to either, you know, storytellers, obviously, or primarily we try to talk to experts or biologists about their research. And so I think it's a lot harder to start an argument, a malicious argument. It's easy to start arguments. It's easy to say, like, well, I don't agree with what that person said. Elk actually are, you know, the numbers of elk actually are being decimated. It's easy to make those arguments depending on your source of information. But it's like, it's just, I think that's partly why we don't get a lot of that. And if we do get disagreement, it's genuine disagreement, like, well, in unit whatever, there are actually deer herds being decimated. And it's like, okay, well, maybe if you have a guest that will confirm an expert that will confirm that for us or talk to us about that, we're willing to have that person on in some way. We've been pretty clean, like, in terms of, like, what our focus has been, which has always been about research or art, like art, but you can't really argue about art, but research and researchers. So it's like we don't get a lot of it, to be honest. We really don't.
[00:40:09] Speaker C: Even online on social media, we get.
[00:40:12] Speaker D: Some in the comments, again, where people are making legitimate arguments that actually, I can say, okay, that's a legitimate argument. Do you know of someone who can come on the podcast and talk about that? Because we're not gonna, we're not, you know, we're not biologists, so we would love to have someone on, but we don't get a lot.
We just don't. I gotta be honest, I'm trying to think, have we ever had like a real one that we've had actually. Well, I don't know. Maybe we had one that we had.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: To talk about, maybe one or two. But I mean, how does we approach that?
[00:40:40] Speaker D: But it doesn't happen often.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm usually the one that, to Steven's credit, he's the one that's very, not that I'm over exaggerating, but I'll look at certain things and I go, how do we tackle this? And he goes, just leave it alone. And so he's usually, he's a great barometer for me. And I've learned more and more as we've gone through this. And listen, there are many folks, and I'm sure, I don't know if you subscribe to this credo also is basically, you don't look at the comments as much because you will go down a rabbit hole. And it's obviously, look at them. I mean, we do to a degree.
[00:41:16] Speaker D: The concept is not like, don't look at them. It's like, do you have to decide whether it's trolling or whether it's genuine curiosity?
[00:41:23] Speaker B: It's genuine curiosity.
[00:41:24] Speaker D: It's a genuine argument. Like, people definitely have. Have opinions that maybe some of our guests wouldn't agree with, but they've almost, I'd say 95% of them have been like, genuinely decent.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: I agree with that. Disagreements, I agree with that. And I. To our, and, yeah, Brooke, I think what Steven said is wholly accurate, is we really try to walk this, what we've adopted as the radical middle, and that we are open to anyone who wants to come on that has reasonable arguments to. I mean, listen, the toughest thing that we've tried to get, and we've gotten a couple, we've been lucky, is to get folks that, who are against wolves in some degree, whether it be ranching, hunting, livestock, whatever you want to talk about. We've had a couple that have been able to come on, but it's such a divisive topic, and we are not. Listen, we've reached out to a couple of folks and said, listen, we love to have this base. It's a, it's a conversation. We are not here to gang up. And it might be a little bit difficult as a two person host podcast as opposed to maybe a one person. I don't know if you've ever had any of those instances when you talk about cats or talk about the. The issues that big cats have. I mean, but, yeah, Steven said it wonderfully, that we've really done well. And that's not to say that won't change in terms of, like, the comments or the quote unquote, hate, but, you know, we've really, I think, tried to establish ourselves as such a down the middle, focused research information. Here it is. Make your decisions that we've been very lucky to not run into a lot of that.
[00:43:14] Speaker D: Yeah. And it hasn't actually been that hard because in theory, we are both very different people. And so therefore, the podcast does kind of meet in the middle somewhere, where it's like, I do love the tradition of sustainable hunting, and I have lived on a farm. I do understand cattle farmers and where they're coming from, and I do understand a person who cares about biology and biodiversity and the future of our ecosystems. I care about all of those things at the same time. And John and I are best friends, and we have very different lifestyles and very different interests. So it hasn't really been a difficult task to kind of end up in a balanced place about all of it, because it's real.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: What do you. I mean, Brooke, for you, did you, have you ever encountered that? Because you're approaching 200 episodes. I mean, it's a lot. I mean, sometimes you're just going through the grinder, right? And you're just. I got episode after episode after episode. Have you seen any of that? How do you tackle that? How do you handle it? Because, again, we're in, all three of us are in this space. This nature space is bound to have people that are, that disagree about what it is, whether it's about policy, whether it's about conservation, whatever. And you covered I so much more of the global aspect of a lot of these species.
[00:44:34] Speaker D: Yeah. Where do you see the most of it as well?
[00:44:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So one of my big arguments, and this, I think, is a big plus for me, is I have a science background, so I come from the biology angle. And so I know that there's two sides of every coin. And so when I'm talking to guests, I'm asking both sides of. Because conservation is first and foremost about people. And anyone who thinks it's differently, like, you really actually have to look at the field. It's. Conservation is 100% about people. Wildlife is great. Doing what they do and being themselves, it's us that we have to figure out. And so a lot of what I'm talking to guests about, it's, yes, I want to know. Just. Cause I sometimes I love to nerd out with my guests. Like, teach me about x, y, or z. Teach me about this species, this ecosystem, whatever it might be. But who are the people that are living with them? Who are the stakeholders?
Why is there a problem that you're trying to fix? There's a reason that that problem is there. Is it poverty? Is it lack of food? Is it lack of resources?
Is it all of these things? Because as I've come to find multiple times and with multiple guests on my show, it's like, education can only go so far. It's education, education, education, education. If people know more than blah, blah, blah.
[00:45:56] Speaker D: Awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like, no, no. What is the actual bottom issue here? And it's very rarely. I mean, sometimes, you know, with wolves and predators, there is a bigger issue there, like, direct conflict. Like, you know, we have the new term of coexistence, where I'm sure that you've had on multiple times on your show, like, that idea of coexistence that I really love, because there's now this human element that's being brought in to a lot of this, which was missing before, you know, this. This, like, animals, they need to be over here. They're in sanctuaries, they're in reserves, they're in national parks.
But let's be honest that the vast majority of wildlife and animals are in our backyards, and our backyards could be in Serengeti, or our backyard could be the Appalachians, or our backyard could be the Arctic, you know? But we're all living with these different wildlife. And so I pretty much anytime I try, I receive any hate or whatever you might want to say. Always. My answer is, listen to the whole episode. Like, if you're actually gonna come with this right now, like, listen to the whole thing, or, like, actually look into this person, that there's a reason why they're on the show. You know, like, I vet my guests. Well, there's a few that I'm kind of just like, maybe not, but maybe what they did was really cool, and so I wanted to have them on anyways, but, yeah, so I haven't received too much of that. I've probably received more on my own personal stuff, just because I actually go into the field and I actually go and I tell these stories, and, like, I have these experiences, and a lot of, you know, people online are trying to speak their gospel, and sometimes they don't realize their gospel is wrong.
And so I just, yeah, I just had that the other day with a social media post of mine. Like, oh, my gosh, leave the dolphins alone. I'm like, they came to my zodiac. Like, it was, it was one of the best experiences on my recent trip. Like, and they were having a freaking blast, but, like, let me leave those dolphins alone. Like, it came to us, you know? So I haven't received that much on rewind Alti's platforms. I will say, though, and I think I've heard this said some other times, that when you finally start receiving hate, that means you finally have, like, reached a point of, like, notoriety where you're starting to get some, you know, so as I take that sometimes I've gotten some emails or some other stuff, but. But in overall, though, I would say that our field, this field is very open. I feel like to even be successful at all, like, you have to have an open mind, I think especially as our generation comes into leadership positions and conservation, rewilding, whatever term you want to call it, is that we do.
There has been a big shift and a lot more understanding, you know, a lot less red tape and stuff like that. It's like, there's a bigger picture here that we need to understand. And what is the big picture? What is the both sides? Tell me about those sheep farmers that are really concerned about bringing the wolf back. They have a genuine concern. We need to listen to what that is. Or when I was just in Patagonia, the Torres stropane area has become the hub of pumas, expanding and reaching and going beyond park borders. And the moment they pass into Argentina, which is right beside Chile, they are liable to be shot. And there are a couple ranches down there that are their stancias that have embraced puma tourism, and they are making all kinds of money and coexistence. And like, they're, they're just, they're doing awesome. But how does the estancias that don't want to do tourism, how are they going to get benefited by the influx of pumas, which they are going to come in conflict with? Like, it's just inevitable. More predators on the land, your sheep farmer, there's going to be conflict. How do we address that? And so I had the privilege of, when I was in Patagonia, of sitting down with Nicolas Lagos, who is Panthera's program, puma program coordinator down in Chile. And like, that is literally what he does. Now. He's a biologist, and what he does is coexistence with farmers. Like. Like, let me figure out how to help you live with these cats. Like, I feel like the further we get into our careers, we get into it because of the wildlife and then realize that has nothing to do with the wildlife. That's just the reason that keeps us up every day, is for the wildlife. But it has nothing to do with them, really has everything to do with people that live with them. Yeah.
[00:50:51] Speaker D: It's so crazy, man. The whole thing is wild. I actually don't know how you solve it, to be honest, because it's like, you know, we care.
We all care about our future, I assume, but at the same time, at the same time, there's gonna be sacrifices. Yeah, I mean, I assume we all care about our futures to some degree. Whether we can agree on how we're supposed to care about it or how we're supposed to impact it is obviously a different thing. But I'm a supporter of human beings, particularly human beings who live near wildlife and who choose to live hard lives or lives that are challenging and require skill to live. I appreciate that kind of person. We certainly wanna keep those people. And a lot of times those are the types of people who are going to live near the wilderness. But then it's like, also, if you're going to choose to live near the wilderness, it's hard to justify that all of it needs to be absolutely controlled and that the wilderness needs to be farmed and that anything that kind of defies this or rejects or resists this human dominated landscape needs to be killed or needs to be extirpated.
Sometimes I don't know who I am in this conversation and how I'm supposed to.
It's like there's always two. Like, there's two sides, but really there's freaking. There's five sides to all of these stories. There's little intricacies within all the two major sides. It's like, I don't know. Sometimes I don't know what we're supposed to be talking about in order to make headway, because no group of people, no single group of people can seriously cover all of these things or. Or can seriously solve all of this stuff. But also, part of it is we're not all listening to the same people, right? It's like some people are listening to scientists and some people are listening to politicians.
And sometimes it's just hard to figure out how to address it all.
[00:52:46] Speaker B: All the perspectives I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how you balance that, too, Brooke, because if you're.
You have, like you said, you have the science background, so you go out and are able to do all these things and have the science brain about it while also bringing it to the general public.
It's somewhat frightening, I guess, that there is pushback in that arena. Right. Because you're trying to encapsulate more folks into a situation that they wouldn't normally see and give them the information, and why that would be a cause for immediate reaction. You know, the reaction to the action is so instant and so immediate and at times hurtful. I don't want to say it's hateful most of the time. I think it's just hurtful that there's a lot of folks that look at what happens and think immediately that it's not being done on the up and up by someone such as yourself who has this background, who, again, if you don't listen to the entire episode and, you know, this isn't against anyone to have, you know, everyone deserves their opinion. Everyone deserves to have their voice in this. And that's, again, something we preach from the sanctuary or not even preach, but we teach, is that everybody needs to have their voice in the circle or in the pack. They always have a voice. And so it's not to poo poo anyone's voice or say, your voice is less than or more than. It's just. Why the immediate visceral, why the immediate go, you know, go for the jugular as you were, as opposed to taking a step back and looking two or three or four layers deeper than that.
[00:54:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And I have to say it's mostly been online and, like, in some very interesting ways, like, I had this one. I mean, it was actually, it actually kind of made me sad.
This amazing. His name was John Kawanoski, and he a PhD. He was leading the director of science for Australian Wildlife Conservancy, which is like this unbelievable organization in Australia.
And, like, his post was, he has very, very few pictures of himself. And the few that he sent me that was just in the carousel was just like him and like another gentleman. There was like two or three photos where it was just like him and another guy and like, a few people completely berated in the comments that it was just like a white man in the photos. And it's like, it just was really sad that it's just like you're taking this completely out of context. This is all that he had, like, of images of himself in the field.
Yeah. So just. Just stuff like that. Sometimes things are just taken way, way out of context on social media. People haven't. They've never even seen the brand or know the story or, like, I mean, literally, that entire episode, he is just talking about his incredible team and, like, all of these amazing people that are on his team, you know, males and females and everything like that. And so, yeah, sometimes that's just. But that's the life we live in. Like, if. If we didn't have the thick enough skin to do this, then we would have stopped a long time ago, or we would have gotten out the game a long time ago. Because you can't do this for this long and not be okay with criticism, feedback. I mean, people could leave reviews on stuff. So sometimes you just. If you're putting yourself out there, you gotta get. You gotta just be aware that things are gonna come back. Sometimes. You don't always like that.
[00:56:26] Speaker D: Social media is like, just the easiest place to insult people, you know?
[00:56:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:31] Speaker B: And I find too, and I I, I hear you too, when you say that, Steven, that, like, humans, they're so interesting. Because I. When I went to this, when I went to this rally in DC for the cry for the wild thing they had about, they're trying to pass bills and legislation to help, you know, to end torture of wolves and wildlife and all this other stuff. And really just to see the different types of folks that show up for stuff like that. And, I mean, the young kids. Young, I would say young adults. Cause they're entering into that college, college age or whatever, that really have this knack for public speaking, for really enveloping the entire argument in such a practical, progressive, non aggressive way is so unique and so powerful that some of that gets lost in where we look and see sometimes. Again, everybody from all walks, all different generations, all different, you know, races and whatever it may be, is like how you can speak to the thing that you're actually trying to help and push forward. And when you see folks of that age doing it at a younger idea. Cause I know me at that age, I would have never been able to be in a group of folks like that and say, my truth about this is awful. I would have stayed silent on the back. I just know that was me at that point in my life. Now it's way different. But to see, just like you say, the coming together of folks and the commiserating and the having a chat, I met a couple of wonderful mentees who were, you know, there that were. That came along with, with Jonas Black and the work that they're doing and how they get involved with certain things and these young folks that were with Western Watersheds project, it's just really amazing to see how people can, when they find a commonality, how you go, oh, wow, everybody's from everywhere. And it really takes that to make an impact on anything, whether it's conservation, whether it's preservation, whether it's helping other humans get out of poverty and hunger and all these other wonder, all these terrible things that happened.
It's, again, I always go back to, at least with wolves and the relationship that humans have with wolves. I don't know if you've talked with anybody, Brooke, that has.
I'm sure there are folks that have draws to other animals, whether it be whales or birds or big cats, but this primal instinct or this primal connection that lives with people and wolves because of the domesticated dog and understanding that, hey, you know, that little chihuahua you have was actually this animal over here, like, way, like tens of thousands of years before. Like, that was the animal that we, as a species, as we evolved, were the ones that said, okay, we're gonna figure this out with this one. You know, and it's. It's just interesting to see, like, that come full circle. It took, you know, tens of thousands of years maybe to come back to that for certain folks. But it's always tough to see that. I don't know if you've ever got those aha moments or those things where you're interviewing somebody or you're out and you hear stuff that comes across your wavelength in any way, shape, or form that you just kind of go, ah, they got it.
[01:00:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say that happens quite a lot. It's kind of like you, Steven. I was.
I was raised in a very conservative, blue collar place, and I actually look at that as an advantage because I understand both sides. Like, I have to go home and talk to my father. And, like, you know, I just. Yeah, like, and I'm. And they just call. They don't even know what to call me because when I. So I was in Colorado for many years, and I think that they thought that I just became this, like, crazy liberal person. And then, like, I came back home and they're like, oh, actually, you're still really down to earth. I was like, yeah, I didn't lose my roots, and I think that being able to stand on both sides of the aisle and understand both sides is just such a big advantage, especially if you want to build a platform like this. Yeah. Yes, it's. I mean, you know, if it leads, if it bleeds, it leads. Like, if you have all these, like, conflict baity stuff, then, yeah, of course you might get more views, but is that really what you stand for? And so having, you know, going these conversations, like, the kind of stuff I'm able to pull out of my guests, it's like asking, what is the other side here? Who is the other side? You know, what is that argument? And no matter how someone feels about the other argument, it is valid and it needs to be listened to because that is part of the decision making. We're all stakeholders in this. And, yeah, so, yeah, I definitely take. I definitely view my background as a hardcore advantage growing up in a very conservative place. And being back at a conservative place, like, I've just done this roller coaster being in Colorado, which is like, well, completely other side, you know, just, you know, Denver. Like, Denver, you know, and then coming back, like, yeah, just like who I used to be. I used to be like, this hillbilly. Like, it's really hard to think now. I used to have a thick accent. Give me some bourbon. It comes back out.
Yeah, I drove big trucks. Like, all of this cultural stuff. Like, that's just who I was. But I always loved cats and I always loved wildlife in the meantime. And that was a big disconnect, me growing up. Like, I played outside. I love being outside.
But all of these conversations about, you know, these bigger issues was just missing because it wasn't a part of the culture.
And so how do I come back and share these messages and not make people think I'm crazy or some, like, tree hugging hippie lover or something? Something like, I got to connect with everybody, and how do I do that?
Yeah.
[01:03:10] Speaker D: And also, it's like. It's like, how could you. How can you create a bridge if you haven't sort of been on both sides of the bridge? Like, in terms of your perspective, if you haven't seen different perspectives and agreed with different perspectives, how could you even become a bridge for a hard conversation? I don't even know how you could. So I think, like, what you said is it's incredibly valuable. But also, it's not to say that. It's not to say that necessarily. I'll speak for myself, not for you, but it's not to say that, like, my opinion is not solidified. It is. I believe that.
I believe that the. The planet we live on has been incredibly affected by human beings to a point that needs to be reversed to some degree. And that wild spaces need as many wild animals that as we can muster. I'm not talking about releasing predators into New York City, which will be someone's argument, but I'm saying wherever wild animals can be, they should be, and we should make those places that can still retain that essence of wildness as wild as we can make them, because biodiversity is one of the keys to our future. We're affecting that concept of biodiversity negatively in way too many places across the planet, and we're, we're dangerously underestimating the, the impact that's going to have and is having and can have and the domino effect of those types of things. So it's like, while I understand why elk hunters want to protect elk, it's not enough to be an elk hunter anymore. You have to be a person who cares about the environment. It's not enough to be a duck hunter and to conserve ducks. You have to be a person who cares about biodiversity, even if that negatively impacts the action that you like to take, which is to be to hunt ducks or to hunt elk or to hunt deer. There's a larger thing happening that we need to focus on, and that is biodiversity and wilderness and wildlife.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a good transition, though, too, to brooke. So how do you, with the conservate, with the traveling conservation that you head up and that they're working with, how do those messages, what's the goal of that? But behind, you know, a safari company that is disrupting kind of this industry narrative of, like, we're going to go on a safari and we're going to hunt and kill these animals, whereas this is more about conservation and preservation, how do those messages get across? So that specifically talking about the wild source, and then the next thing that you're going to be working on, like, how are you able to relate to those people that go on these adventures or go on these, whatever it is, and say, this is the reason why these spaces have to live? Just like Steven was saying, we have to have as much wildlife, wild space as humanly possible that we can allow?
[01:06:15] Speaker C: Well, I will clarify that none of the companies that I work for do hunting tourism.
[01:06:21] Speaker B: No, no, I understand. No, I mean, like, disrupting. No, no, no, absolutely not. Yeah, I meant, like, there are people that, and I'll correct myself here. Like, there are folks, obviously, that take people on safari. There's african safaris where people go and they see all the animals and stuff. There are hunting safaris that literally go to hunt. And then there's part of what, there's what you're doing, which you can obviously go into greater detail about what the conservation and preservation stuff is.
[01:06:49] Speaker C: So, like, the next level of what it actually means and what I do.
[01:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[01:06:54] Speaker C: So I think why?
What I do is so unique in the companies that I work for, because everything I do is so morally based. Like, I'm very much a walk. The walk. If you're gonna talk the talk, like, you have to live up to what you say you're doing. And the companies that I've dedicated myself to are, like, for example, the wild source, who I'm the director of conservation for.
Like, the whole reason why Bill started that is because he went on safari and then realized that the company that he hired, almost all of the funds went to them. Not the guy who was on the ground that was giving him this unbelievable experience, who was the local african guide. And he's like, this isn't cool. Like, this is not how the why. Why is this usually, like, south african companies, they own everything. Why are they once getting all of my money and not this guy who is the local Tanzanian who's giving me this incredible experience? And so he started his own.
Well, one, the wild source, their own company, and then also a new term called disruptive empowerment. We're, like, literally trying to disrupt the safari industry by empowering guides to essentially have their own business, be able to have their own vehicles.
We are, I think, still the only camp that has, like, local biologist guides. That, and that's part, a big part of what I do is the scientific study of the cats. Like, purely observational. That's another big thing about tourism, is scientists can only be in so many places. But when you have trained guides in these areas that know how to interpret wildlife behavior, that is so many intelligent people that you have that we can get data on to get so many incredible more observations. So citizen science is now becoming a big part of nature tourism, which I'm really excited about and was a big part of my masters and really hooked me on the idea of conservation tourism. But going back to the greater picture, empowering these communities that live with the wildlife to make sure that their needs are met and to have better lives and to know that all of these tourists are coming in and spending these thousands of thousands of dollars are because they've kept their wildlife preserved. And here and there are so many places that if tourism stopped, then they would no longer exist. So, like, there's pretty much no way that, you know, the Serengeti would still be here or some other ecosystems that there's no way that they would be here if it wasn't for tourism. So. And what I love to do, especially if anybody comes with me somewhere, is trying to incorporate as many on the ground NGO's and local voices as possible. So staying at, you know, a locally owned something, whatever it might be, Camp lodge something, and then also, how many different voices can we have in it? Like in this conversation, like local guides, can we get two or three different NGO's to come on and, like, for their day? Like, we will give them a donation for their time.
And then the guests that come on then have this experience they would never get in any other way. Like, for example.
So for the wild source, I led our pants trip last year. That's in Brazil, the biggest wetland in the world, and that's where the famous jaguars on are. So if you have ever seen social media or all of the documentaries of jaguars hunting Caiman, that's all how I'm putting in the poncetal and port of Joffrey region.
And so I led the trip there last year. And while I was there, since I'm a conservation biologist and connect with conservationists, I kept connected with Abby Martin, who is the founder of the Jaguar identification Project. And now they are a part of our trip. And so the guests that are coming on our trip will go out with a biologist, a jaguar freaking biologist, to go be with them for the day. Like, they are going to come with us. And, I mean, you want to talk about someone who knows these cats better than anybody. It's these ones who are studying them. So the personal connection that people can have with these animals is absolutely next level.
And then that creates more impact, that creates people that are having better connections with these areas.
They want to go back and support the jaguar identification project, all these different things. And so it's just taking it to another level. Like, there's nature tourism. You know, that's just like, you know, we want to do. You want to go hiking, you want to do all these things. It's spending your tourism dollars being in nature. That's nature tourism. Ecotourism is like a little more concentrated than that. There's usually like a sustainability component in some way, shape or form. And then there's conservation tourism, where it's like, the purpose of this trip is to conserve this area and empower the people around. And that's what I do. So it's like these, it's these, like, it's super niche, but it takes somebody that, again, straddles lines like, I'm first and foremost a conservation biologist, and I have all these connections around the world. How can I get, would I know that funding is one of the hardest things that biologists come by? How can I help them? Oh, I have people that would have a lot of money who want to go have this experience, and I want to give them the best experience of their life. Like, top of the line best experience. I'm going to take you out into the freaking pantanal with a jaguar biologist, and you're in the pantanal to see the jaguars. Like, you can just see them, but let's see them with an expert.
And also they have a radio where the cats are and blah, blah, blah. You know, that's just insider stuff.
And I've done that now in a couple places around the world.
And so, like, various connections, like, I have. And so my goal is, what I'm trying to do is, like, how can I incorporate as many conservation voices in tourism for, as a win win? Like, they need funding. They need their voice heard. It's so hard for these people to get their message out. And then people who are coming to these areas, they want that experience. They want that next level. And so how can, and I want, I want to be, like you said, I want to be the conduit. I want to be the conduit between the two.
And then this is, I view rewroteology as like a megaphone. It's like the platform to get their voice out in an evergreen way. Like, these stories will be up forever that they can then use in whatever they want. I mean, a lot of these people that I have on, some of them are famous and some of them aren't. They've never had an opportunity to share their story, and they are doing some unbelievable work, and it needs to be heard. And so now they have something where it's their whole story, it's their life work and like an hour to hour, half long interview that they can then share.
So that's why I work so many hours is why I, like, I do one and I do the other. It's like, because the tourism, it's funding so many things. It's funding nature preservation. It's funding these, like I said, and I keep going back to Patagonia because I was just there. It's funding these estancias that are continuing to live their traditional ways but also are accepting pumas and coexistence. And then it's giving people the best experience of their freaking life. Like, come on. And, like, biologists in Patagonia, biologists in Pantanal and other places, like expert guides on safari in Africa.
Yeah. So that's the reason why I get up every day and go through the long hours, the very long hours.
[01:15:01] Speaker D: I love that part when we have someone on who's done two years worth of research to write a paper, and they just like, thanks for giving me a place to talk about it, because you kind of underestimate, like, a lot of scientists. They just work for years and years developing these incredible libraries of work and information, and then it just kind of goes into peer review, but they don't get a chance to just riff on it for hours. And I didn't know that was true, but it makes sense now. Cause I've never. I don't. Normally, there's a few podcasts, I guess, that I do hear it on, but it's not a very widespread thing. So that is one of my. That's one of my favorite parts. But how do I. You know, you've been doing this. You've been. You've had a pulse on this tourism thing for such a long time. Is there a general.
Is there a general feeling that locals have when you're trying to push, like, a. Like, some kind of major tourism effort? Like, is it a. Is it generally a good response, a negative response, or is it kind of different every single time?
[01:16:02] Speaker C: So that's a good question.
So I don't do mass tourism or anything like that. And a lot of the areas or a lot of the products that I have been in development with, it was with local communities. Oh, I see that part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's specifically what I do again, like, you know, natural habitat adventures is a bigger product. Like, they are much bigger company even than the wild source. And, like, I've worked for both companies, so I can't say 100%, but everything that I've had my hands in there is a strong local element.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I can't say it's perfect. I mean, you know, not everybody wants foreigners, and, like, that's perfectly valid and understandable.
And so just finding the people who do want that opportunity and do want the are willing and happy to host people from outside of their culture and then not. And just being super respectful, whatever the local customs are, and being just very cognizant, especially as Americans, we don't always have the best reputation around the world. So, like, just being very aware of that and trying to break some standards that some other people view Americans as. I've definitely run into that a couple times. So, yeah, that's phenomenal.
[01:17:28] Speaker B: That's some really, that's some really cool stuff. I mean, what's.
I mean, Brooke, what's the best way, because you are, like I said, you're starting this new venture, I believe, in the coming weeks. So what's the best way for people to. Obviously, everyone listened. Subscribe to rewildology. For those of you that are listening via wolf connection, please subscribe to rewildology.
But obviously follow them on the socials and stuff. Yeah. It's a cat with some headphones. You can't.
[01:18:04] Speaker D: Yes.
[01:18:04] Speaker B: It's pretty. It's very, very colorful. I love it.
[01:18:06] Speaker C: Yeah, very bright.
[01:18:08] Speaker D: Very bright.
[01:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Ours is a little muted. Yours is bright. So we have a nice, we have a little contrasting styles there, but it's good. What's for you, what is the best way for folks to be involved, not only in the podcast, but also in the conservation, travel stuff that you have your hands in? Point them to that.
[01:18:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So rebodology.com is where the show, I release an episode every single Thursday, which, again, wow, it's a lot of episodes. So the whole entire catalog is there. So definitely go there to see what I'm up to. Most often, social media is the best way. So rewildology social media is just about the show. And then my personal one is a lot more. And that's where I showcase a lot of my actual travels to these places and what I've seen and what I've experienced, the biodiversity that I've seen, because I try to keep those separate intentionally, because, you know, rewater is about the voices of these amazing people that I've had the privilege of meeting through the show. And then again, mine's more about my travels.
So those are the best ways on Instagram is what I'm very active on. LinkedIn is getting freaking pretty, like, legit. So I've been heavily impressed with LinkedIn. So definitely people can go over there, too. If you want to just add me, Brooke Mitchell or rewad algae is there as well. So it's on all the platforms.
Definitely. Come check me out. And then nathab.com is what the company I'm going back to.
And then.
That was really loud.
[01:19:48] Speaker D: I think it's John's computer.
[01:19:50] Speaker C: Give a second.
[01:19:51] Speaker B: Sorry, that was my bad.
[01:19:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it's fine.
And then thewildsource.com is also the other company that I work for, so all fantastic companies.
So you have the show, the webinar series that I'm taking over, and we'll see what it's growing into. That will also be on that hab.com. so, yeah, and you guys as well, for rewindology listeners that want to definitely listen to the Wolf Connection podcast, I mean, how long have we been talking online? It's been at least a couple years of us supporting each other, which is beautiful.
So please tell everybody how to get a hold of you.
[01:20:32] Speaker B: Gee, again, everybody can obviously, like, subscribe, find us. We're on all the major platforms, too, including YouTube. Now. We finally just did that about a month or two ago. So, yeah, find us the Wolf Connection podcast. Then you can find us the wolf connection pod on Instagram. You can email us, which we've actually had some very, you know, folks have been very, a lot of emails, which you wouldn't think. But, yeah,
[email protected]. dot. You can email us. And that comes directly to Steven and I, so we can answer questions and people have been giving us guest ideas and all that good stuff.
[01:21:10] Speaker D: How do they come and visit now? Do they, do we still do air being. I'm totally out of the loop.
[01:21:15] Speaker B: There are. Yes, there are multiple ways, if you go to the website, there are multiple ways that. Or follow wolf. Follow Wolf connection. On Instagram, you will see the sanctuary posting all of our events. There's some sunset howls, there's howling with the pack. There's, I think they're doing a yoga thing. They've really transformed the visitor experience to where we are doing a little bit of different stuff with the pack. So it's not all kind of the same. So definitely check that stuff out. Go to wolfconnection.org or go to wolfconnection on Instagram and that'll have all the stuff for visiting and stuff like that.
[01:21:52] Speaker D: Look out for the next women and wolves. I have no idea when it is, but that's one of the coolest things.
[01:21:56] Speaker B: Yes, women and wolves, I believe is in October. So you just keep an update.
[01:22:01] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Not too far. California for that. That sounds incredible.
[01:22:05] Speaker D: I think one of the coolest events.
[01:22:08] Speaker B: I think that is. It's. Why, it's very, very cool. Like, that's, that is, I, that, that I would say is our flagship. Other than this, other than the youth programs, women and wolves is the secondary flagship. Like one a that wolf connection does. It's really, really good. But yeah, if you're ever in California, Brooke, give us a visit, will you? I mean, we got to chase you around the globe. I don't know if you're like, Carmen San Diego, we gotta be like, where's Brooke? She's in Patagonia. She's in the Arctic. You know, Patagonia?
[01:22:37] Speaker D: What the heck?
[01:22:38] Speaker B: I know. What the heck.
[01:22:38] Speaker C: Come with me. I'm not joking.
[01:22:41] Speaker B: We might have to take you up on that seriously, because I'm a Puma fan. So if we're offline, we'll talk about.
[01:22:46] Speaker C: Future things that I can't quite talk about in Pumas recorded spaces.
[01:22:52] Speaker B: But we can talk.
But yeah, this has been fun. I like this. This was good. This was a nice, easy get to know you, get our audiences together, cross promotion. We should definitely do something like this again. Maybe in the future. But Brooke Mitchell, man, you're absolutely killing it and all the things you have your hands on a lot and it shows and your website's great and the stuff you're doing is fantastic. I mean, just really awesome. Good for you. And keep on doing what you're doing. Take some time off, a little bit more time. Help yourself out, you know?
[01:23:24] Speaker C: Yes. And thanks both of you guys. Thanks John Steven, for sitting down with me. Being a voice for the wolves, being such a positive light online on social media and just being a supporter, just keep doing what you're doing. We need more positive voices out there, especially for conflict ridden species like wolves. So please keep doing what you're doing and we'll chat online soon.
[01:23:46] Speaker D: Thank you.
[01:23:47] Speaker B: Absolutely appreciate it. Thanks, Brooke. How's to y'all? Talk to you later.
[01:23:53] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today. I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories and and knowledge shared in this episode. To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
[email protected] if you enjoyed today's conversation and want to stay connected with the rewallodology community, hit that subscribe button and rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app. I read every comment left across the show's platforms and your feedback truly does.
[01:24:26] Speaker C: Mean the world to me.
[01:24:28] Speaker A: Also, please follow the show on your favorite social media app. Join the Rewad all just Facebook group and sign up for the weekly Rewild algae newsletter. In the newsletter, I share recent episodes, the latest conservation news, opportunities from across the field, and updates from past guests.
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[01:24:57] Speaker C: PayPal or purchase a piece of swag.
[01:25:00] Speaker A: To show off your rewild you love.
Remember, rewilding isn't just a concept, it's a call to action. Whether it's supporting a local conservation project, reducing your own impact, or simply sharing the knowledge you've gained, today, you have the power to make a difference.
[01:25:19] Speaker C: A big thank you to the guests.
[01:25:20] Speaker A: That come onto the show and share their knowledge with all of us and to all of you rewad AlG listeners for making the show everything it is today.
[01:25:29] Speaker C: This is Brooke signing off.
[01:25:31] Speaker A: Remember, together we will rewild the planet.
